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Wallabies v Wales: Name Your Best XV

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MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
Scotland | Wales
1. Pek Cowan | Benn Robinson
2. Moore | Moore
3. Palmer | Kepu
4. Sharpe (c) | Sharpe
5. Pyle | Horwill (c)
6. Higgers | Dennis
7. Pocock | Pocock
8. Mowen | Palu
9. Genia | Genia
10. JOC (James O'Connor) | Barnes
11. Ioane | Ioane
12. Carter | JOC (James O'Connor)
13. Tapuai | Tapuai/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Shipperley | Shipperley/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (whichever of these two performs better keeps his spot)
15. Beale | Beale

I tried to pick based on the fixtures too...The benches would be interesting too. I'd like young Tommy Kingston to have more time to develop and grow, and I think it's important to have a core of senior players so Moore, Sharpe, Pocock, Genia, Diggers and Beale provide that. Form and fitness change but to me, that looks fairly good.

Welsh bench something like: 16. TPN 17. Slipper 18. Pyle 19. Vaea/Mowen/S.Timani 20. Higgers 21. Stannard/Lucas 22. Tapuai/McCabe/Carter

With the 5/2 split you could also go an openside on the bench but that's a whole other kettle of fish to open Pandora's box on...
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Newter... You're on your own...

TPN played alright in that one game...

But Moore, after a slow start in the first couple of matches has been in good form, and combine that with his regular top form for the Wallabies over the past 4 years and there's really no question about it...

Despite the hype, TPN has yet to deliver at a test level...
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
Newter... You're on your own...

TPN played alright in that one game...

But Moore, after a slow start in the first couple of matches has been in good form, and combine that with his regular top form for the Wallabies over the past 4 years and there's really no question about it...

Despite the hype, TPN has yet to deliver at a test level...
No he isn't...you're just not with him :)

TPN hasn't been at his best, obviously instructed not to be his usual exocet missile self, due to limitations of the Tahs squad. However, he's been everything Newter said - with the addition of poor lineout throwing, I admit.

TPN has most definitely delivered at Test level and is an X-Factor player who can turn a match with a single act - Moore doesn't offer that, but is a steady, strong performer. I went with Moore starting for balance, but that doesn't mean Taf isn't up to it, and doesn't push Moore every step of the way...
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
No he isn't...you're just not with him :)

TPN hasn't been at his best, obviously instructed not to be his usual exocet missile self, due to limitations of the Tahs squad. However, he's been everything Newter said - with the addition of poor lineout throwing, I admit.

TPN has most definitely delivered at Test level and is an X-Factor player who can turn a match with a single act - Moore doesn't offer that, but is a steady, strong performer. I went with Moore starting for balance, but that doesn't mean Taf isn't up to it, and doesn't push Moore every step of the way...

Really?

The only one I can think of was against the Boks a few years ago where he only lasted 20 minutes after concussing himself...
 

twenty seven

Tom Lawton (22)
Whilst Pyle and Jones are improving, their scrummaging is not of a standard for international rugby, even in super rugby they have struggled in the scrums. Pyle calls himself way too much in the lineouts which leads to predictability. They are still too young yet. Let them develop.
 

Godfrey

Phil Hardcastle (33)
1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Slipper
4. Sharpe
5. Horwill
6. Higginbotham
7. Pocock
8. Palu
9. Genia
10. JOC (James O'Connor) (or... Cooper..)
11. Ioane
12. Tapuai
13. McCabe
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Beale

16. TPN
17. Kepu
18. Pyle
19. Mowen
20. Nic White
21. Barnes
22. Shipperley

Could swap McCabe and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).
 

tigerland12

John Thornett (49)
Well, I don't expect him to be an automatic selection with so much rugby still to be played and Dennis and Palu getting better each week, but let's not kid ourselves. Mowen is the form No 8 in the country by about a furlong.

In case you hadn't noticed, he has been one of the main reasons Nic White and Ian Prior have looked so good. Quick to the ruck, often, in good body position, and with the core strength required to actually shift bodies out of the way. That's one asset. The other is his stiff defence next to the ruck. He doesn't meekly give up the gainline without a fight.

I imagine you only notice big linebreaks and tries scored. It's true Higginbotham has been getting those. But at Wallaby level we have backs for that, and they do it much better than the long haired gaul.
Umm no I notice all aspects of a players game, and not once have I elluded to him playing poorly, but he is nowhere near International level. If you're resorting to calling Higginbotham a "long haired gaul" I'm goin to ignore you're comments, considering you a resorting to calling a player names to try and take away from his performance. He is the best 6 in the country, end of story, there is nothing more too it.

Also apologies if I'm incoherent right now, I may or may not be intoxocated.
 

Swarley

Bob Loudon (25)
1. Benn Robinson- One of the best LHP's in the world, an automatic selection.
2. Stephen Moore- Easily our #1 hooker for the past 2 years, no questions asked.
3. James Slipper- Our best all-round THP. Palmer offers nothing around the field and Alexander is a penalty machine come scrum time.
4. Nathan Sharpe- Probably Australia's best lock. We need his leadership, drive, line-out jumping and experience to beat the Lions.
5. James Horwill (c)- Pocock's a future long-term Wallaby captain, but after one tournament there's no reason to dump Horwill.
6. Dave Dennis- He's got Wallaby experience and is performing for the Tahs. Gagger's blindside analysis last year demonstrated how effective Dennis is in attack and Scott Allen's involvement analysis showed him to be right on the forwards average. This is probably the most contentious selection but with each candidate having vastly different strengths and weaknesses it all depends on the other selections/game plan chosen.
7. David Pocock- Best openside in the world. First picked player by virtually everyone.
8. Wycliff Palu- We've missed his physicality and power for the past few seasons and with him fit and firing for NSW he's in line to win back the #8 jersey.

9. Will Genia- On his day he's the best scrumhalf in the world. Underperforming at the moment, but playing with a seriously out of sorts forward pack and a third-string backline there's not much anyone could do.
10. James O'Connor- Demonstrated his class and composure on the EOYT last year. Brilliant in attack, his willingness to defend fixes a massive problem caused by QC (Quade Cooper).
11. Digby Ioane- One of our best RWC performers. One of the few guaranteed selection.
12. Berrick Barnes- Perfect foil to our enigmatic playmakers Beale and O'Connor.
13. Rob Horne- Out of form at the moment, but outside is our weakest position. Very promising in his 2011 Wallabies cameos, and if he can reproduce that form the #13 spot is his- or Tapuai comes in.
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper- With Mitchell and Turner both out Mr. Fix-it should move onto the wing. He's too good to waste away on the bench and playing out wide should deal with his distribution problems.
15. Kurtley Beale- Obvious choice. Our best Wallaby counter-attacker as anyone who saw the 2010 EOYT would testify. Keep him at the back in attack and defense.
-----------------------------
The general consensus regarding the bench seems to be that they need to be "impact players". This bench probably best fits that description.
16. Tatafu Polota-Nau- Provides plenty of impact from the bench, providing that extra punch in the final stages of a game.
17. Sekope Kepu- Can play both sides of the scrum with great proficiency, ideal prop cover.
18. Hugh Pyle- Form Australian S15 lock. Does the hard yards and is tougher than Simmons.
19. Scott Higginbotham- His lower workrate and proneness to seagulling means he shouldn't start, but his flamboyant explosiveness makes him the ultimate impact player.
20. Liam Gill- Many won't agree, but I think he's our next best #7 after Pocock. We saw what happens when we play someone there out of position and we cannot risk it again. His match-sealing efforts for the Reds have shown he's suited to the bench role.
21. Ben Lucas- Provides great utility value, covering 9, 10 and 15. Better than Phipps and (for now) White Allows an extra forward on the bench.
22. Ben Tapuai/Quade Cooper- Within 2 years I see Tapuai starting but for now our midfield is pretty wrapped up. Quade's injury means he'll be underdone but his individual brilliance can't be disregarded altogether. We will have to wait and see how they perform later this season.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
Ok, mine:

Same team. No rotation, we play our strongest team we have all three games against the Welsh. I'm sick of this 'ah fuck it we can drop a game here and there, we'll jsut concentrate on the big games' attitude. Mostly because we then are not accustomed to winning, and lose those big games.

Front row, the only decision to be made is tighthead. Fuck mobility, I want a rock solid scrum against the Welsh. There is a reputation about the Wallaby scrum we need to lose, NOW. Otherwise we will continue to get shafted by clueless refs and lose games because of it, eg Ireland at the WC.

Horwill is obvious, but for the other place i'd go Simmons. I know he's not been great against the Bulls and Force, but he was good in every other game, and is one of our best prospects. He needs to really up his game though, or he shouldn't be picked. Hugh Pyle has been superb though, and I want these two locks in the starting/bench role. Sharpe will never win us anything, Vickerman is just permanently broken.

Backrow, we have a 6 and 8 to choose. Higginbotham is still a total seagull, but he's a good seagull. He's fast and elusive running the ball, and pits in some big hits. However, he would need to be paired with a hard, tight working 8, who makes metres with the ball in contact, is good at the breakdown, and plays to his size. Vaea is that man. Palu is another Sharpe. Flat track bully, who just isn't a winner. In addition, he plays well below his weight, for the 4 games a year he manages to get onto the field. He's not performed to the level that everyone said he was capable of (6 years ago). He's getting old, and run down with injury, and will not be getting any better. Vaea most certainly will.

The halves are tough. Whoever we go with, should be playign together at Super rugby level. Genia and Cooper are the obvious front runners, as a pair, but Genia is playing very poorly without Cooper. If Quade comes back strongly, and Genia picks his shit up, then those two. Otherwise, on form it is Nic White and Christian Lealiifano. Barnes an obvious contender, but his tactical kicking is very, very average. He may land a few good one's each game, but as a percentage of how often he kicks it, he's poor. The games that he decides to run it, and pass, he's been great, eg the Sharks, so if he was ordered to never kick in general play, i'd be ok with him. (Yes yes he gave us the field position for the penalty against the Boks. How many times did he kick it? What did he do when he came off the bench against the AB's the next week? Kicked every fucking ball straight to Corey Jane, even though we were down, and looked far more dangerous when we ran it). Defense an obvious plus.



Centres are important. Justin Beiber is the 12, simple. Fuck off with your 'flyhalf' bollocks. Outside is tricky. I want someone to straighten the attack, organise the defensive line, and tackle himself to a standstill. This is either Fainga'a, McCabe, or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) obviously the better attacker, but his utility value on the wing cant be forgotten about, especially with Mitchell and Turner both gone. I prefer Fainga'a, because of his breakdown work (topped the Reds for pilfers last year), and the fact that he at the very least will run at SPACE, if he goes for it. More often than not, he'll draw a defender and then offload to a better ball runner. However, he's injured and will need to prove his form before selection, so at this stage i'd be going with McCabe, who appears to have finally had the 'spaces not faces' motto punched into him.
The other very very important factor to think about with the centres, is how well they will work TOGETHER. Combinations like McCabe/Fainga'a will never work, because they play the same style of game. You pair a creative, elusive centre, with a hard running, hard defender, eg Giteau/Mortlock, Nonu/Smith. So because Beiber is the 12, you need a hard hitting defender, and a straight runner at 13. If McCabe is picked at 12, you would have to play a creative, elusive 13 to counter him. The combination must work together. No Rob Horne, just stop suggesting him. His defence has been terrible, his attack mediocre. He played 4-5 great games for the Tahs when he first came onto the scene and has done nothing special since. Like Palu, we keep hearing about his potential ability if he stayed in form/uninjured for long enough, but he never has. He should stay in Super rugby until he justifies selection with form over a full season of rugby.

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Palmer

4. Horwill
5. Simmons.

6. Higgnbotham
7. Pocock
8. Vaea

9. Genia/White
10. Cooper/Lealiifano/Barnes.

12. Beiber
13. McCabe (Fainga'a if he returns strongly)

11. Ioane
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Beale.

16. Nau
17. Alexander
18. Simmons/Pyle
19. Mowen/Higginbotham
20. White/Genia
21. Barnes/Cooper/Lealiifano
22. Horses for courses. Perhaps another centre (Tapuai), or a winger (Shipperly/Kingston?)

WINNING EVERYTHING is the priority, over everything else. We need to establish a winning culture, or we won't win a game against the Lions, and be the first SH side to lose to them in 20 odd years. If we do, i'll shank Deans myself.
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
...Same team. No rotation...

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Palmer

4. Horwill
5. Simmons.

6. Higgnbotham
7. Pocock
8. Vaea

9. Genia/White
10. Cooper/Lealiifano/Barnes.

12. Beiber
13. McCabe (Fainga'a if he returns strongly)

11. Ioane
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Beale.

16. Nau
17. Alexander
18. Simmons/Pyle
19. Mowen/Higginbotham
20. White/Genia
21. Barnes/Cooper/Lealiifano
22. Horses for courses. Perhaps another centre (Tapuai), or a winger (Shipperly/Kingston?)
Besides the death threats, this is a lolsome team.

To be clear, are you also suggesting no rotation between the two tests on June 5 and June 9? This would, of course, mean that players such as Robinson, Moore, Palmer, Vaea, White, Barnes, McCabe, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Beale, Tatafu, Alexander, Pyle, Mowen, and Lealifiano would play 3 top level games in 8 days or less. 14 of your 22.

In addition, you've decided that Higginbotham should apparently be both starting and on the bench - impressive, I must say.

On top of all that, the thought of a team consisting of Palmer, Vaea, White and Lealifiano as starting wallabies does make me lol significantly. You also labelled the form lock in Australia (Sharpe) useless and somehow due the conclusion that some very good Super rugby cameos of 15-20 minutes with plenty of carries and metres make Vaea the ideal tight loose forward at test level to go the distance, hit the rucks hard and provide everything that Higgers, as a blindside, should but doesn't.

Yep, brilliant. Wish I'd thought of it.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
Besides the death threats, this is a lolsome team.

To be clear, are you also suggesting no rotation between the two tests on June 5 and June 9? This would, of course, mean that players such as Robinson, Moore, Palmer, Vaea, White, Barnes, McCabe, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Beale, Tatafu, Alexander, Pyle, Mowen, and Lealifiano would play 3 top level games in 8 days or less. 14 of your 22.

In addition, you've decided that Higginbotham should apparently be both starting and on the bench - impressive, I must say.

On top of all that, the thought of a team consisting of Palmer, Vaea, White and Lealifiano as starting wallabies does make me lol significantly. You also labelled the form lock in Australia (Sharpe) useless and somehow due the conclusion that some very good Super rugby cameos of 15-20 minutes with plenty of carries and metres make Vaea the ideal tight loose forward at test level to go the distance, hit the rucks hard and provide everything that Higgers, as a blindside, should but doesn't.

Yep, brilliant. Wish I'd thought of it.



So just to clear things up, you think that form should never be rewarded, and that we should just go with the same team of brilliance mixed with mediocre players, and never try anything new? Brilliant, I wish the national coach would try that for....oh hang on, thats right, the only thing of note we've won under Deans was the tri-nations, after NZ sent a weak team to NZ in order to preserve their WC players and gave us the opportunity. Fan-fucking-tastic, Robbie should be signed for the next 10 years!

WE need a dominant scrum. Kepu is not the tighthead to provide it, Palmer is. Vaea played almost every minute of every match last year, and was excellent. He's playing even better this year, but is being limited to cameos because it suits the team. He's been flattening people left right right and centre, doing what everyone SAYS that Palu does.

Lealiifano is by far and away the form inside back of the Aussie conference, if you cant see that then you've got no hope.

I shall concede on the rotation point, but we play our best team against Wales. Sharpe can captain the team against Scotland. And he isn't the form lock.

RE Higgers, yes, he should certainly be both starting and on the bench, there's no possible way there was an oversight in bracketing him with Mowen, none at all. I definitely meant for him to start and then come off the bench.

Let me guess, you want Kepu, Sharpe, Elsom, Palu, Barnes and Horne in your team right?
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
So just to clear things up, you think that form should never be rewarded, and that we should just go with the same team of brilliance mixed with mediocre players, and never try anything new? Brilliant, I wish the national coach would try that for....oh hang on, thats right, the only thing of note we've won under Deans was the tri-nations, after NZ sent a weak team to NZ in order to preserve their WC players and gave us the opportunity. Fan-fucking-tastic, Robbie should be signed for the next 10 years!

WE need a dominant scrum. Kepu is not the tighthead to provide it, Palmer is. Vaea played almost every minute of every match last year, and was excellent. He's playing even better this year, but is being limited to cameos because it suits the team. He's been flattening people left right right and centre, doing what everyone SAYS that Palu does.

Lealiifano is by far and away the form inside back of the Aussie conference, if you cant see that then you've got no hope.

I shall concede on the rotation point, but we play our best team against Wales. Sharpe can captain the team against Scotland. And he isn't the form lock.

RE Higgers, yes, he should certainly be both starting and on the bench, there's no possible way there was an oversight in bracketing him with Mowen, none at all. I definitely meant for him to start and then come off the bench.

Let me guess, you want Kepu, Sharpe, Elsom, Palu, Barnes and Horne in your team right?
So rewarding form = dump Sharp, but keep Simmons when "He needs to really up his game though", and pick Vaea because whilst Palu has been in form, he "will not be getting any better. Vaea most certainly will". Again, your form argument falls through by saying how awesome Vaea was "last year". He needs to be starting consistently at 8, and producing the same results, to justify the form argument.

I also like that I quoted things you said, and you pulled gems like "you think that form should never be rewarded, and that we should just go with the same team of brilliance mixed with mediocre players, and never try anything new" from thin air. I admit I mocked things you said, but I didn't need to make them up. Incidentally, whilst I'm not a big Deans fan, the "only thing of note" we won under him happens to be the equal second most prestigious rugby tournament in the world. Nothing much. But no, I don't think he should be coach beyond 2013.

Kepu's a very good (although not World XV) scrummager. He also adds value in every other facet of the game. Palmer is a potplant. I believe that with development Palmer can offer around the paddock enough to allow him to be one of the best around, but he's not now and you can't play against the top nations with a passenger.

Lealiifano is in good form, no doubt. It can even be argued that he's the form Aussie inside back. If I went a 4/3 split I'd have him on my bench.

I posted my team, what, five hours before you. I even accounted for the necessary squad adjustments for the Scotland and Wales fixtures. Oh, snap. Guess you didn't read the thread. Sorry mate :) And no, Elsom and Horne wouldn't get within Cooee of my squad. Elsom would struggle to get back into my Tahs squad and I've said in other threads that Horney would be best served by a stint at a lower level to rebuild his game/confidence.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
In addition, you've decided that Higginbotham should apparently be both starting and on the bench - impressive, I must say.

To be fair, higgers cops a lot of criticism for playing too wide... I suppose if he plays wide enough then it may just be possible to be both a starter AND riding the pine :p
 

Brumbies Guy

John Solomon (38)
Kepu's a very good (although not World XV) scrummager. He also adds value in every other facet of the game. Palmer is a potplant. I believe that with development Palmer can offer around the paddock enough to allow him to be one of the best around, but he's not now and you can't play against the top nations with a passenger.

From a quick look from the phone he's had the same amount of tackles as Kepu this year, and just about as many runs, even though he's played one less game and fewer minutes overall. He's also lasting longer, averaging more minutes per game than Kepu. Palmer's noticeably picked up his work rate this year from the games I've watched.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
@ Brumbie Man - maybe a bit less vitriol might work a tad better. Your opinion's as good as anyones, but you sound like a pissed guy shouting in a pub!
One point about Vaea, whom I will admit has looked good in those cameos, this year, is how does a cameo from him represent quality, whereas one from Palu, who has been used a bit the same but at the front end of a game, represent crap? Vaea might have played lots of minutes last year, but might it not be the case that he looks so much better this year because he is playing fewer, hence providing more impact?
As for front rowers, referring to the players you are comparing, it would be hard to say that the Brumbies front row is performing better (or worse, before you shout at me) than the Waratahs this year, and I think hard to say one THP or other is clearly better. I think they're both going well. I suspect Robbie will go for versatile props, as ever, hence Kepu / Slipper / Alexander will be favoured, whether that is "best" or not.
 

MrMouse

Bob Loudon (25)
From a quick look from the phone he's had the same amount of tackles as Kepu this year, and just about as many runs, even though he's played one less game and fewer minutes overall. He's also lasting longer, averaging more minutes per game than Kepu. Palmer's noticeably picked up his work rate this year from the games I've watched.
Which is, in part, why I picked him in my team for the game against the Scots (not the stats, the improved workrate). But he has a ways to go until he's ahead of Kepu (or Slipper) in my overall estimations. As Cyclo mentioned, they also have the added advantage of versatility.

To be clear, I'm not saying he's shit, I'm just saying he's not in our best XV or XXII as yet, and there are areas I'm sure he'd agree he still has to improve before he is.
 
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