Wallabies v Pumas, Bankwest (Parra), Sat 5th December

[Brumby Runner]

No what? Maddocks selection at U20s doesn’t refute comments about his lacking technical understanding. He is the most naturally gifted fullback in Australian rugby ATM, but he doesn’t understand field positioning very well, his kicking game is pretty poor and he really doesn’t seem to know what to do at the ruck.

Noah started a test match, that’s hardly token. He was dropped because he struggled badly. Other guys like Wright, Phillips, Bell and Paisami capitalised on their chances and earned subseauent selections.
I agree that I would have liked to see more from Tate, but acknowledge he needs to adjust his game a bit to suit test rugby.

I really don’t think Joe Powell, Moeroa, Godwin, Harrison or Ikatau earned their positions ahead of any of the players that were selected, or demonstrated that they were more complete players.

If they were selected who would have Moeroa, Simone, Godwin or Ikatau replaced? Hunter Paisami? He is one player you’re saying earned his spot. How do we fit Nic White, Powell and McDermott into the same team? Im not saying I agree with all the selections, but I question some of the comments on here from people who broadly criticise the selections but dont really offer a realistic or practical alternative.

If you think you can select a better team, then just name it so we can all see it..

Adam, straw man arguments galore? Certainly twisting the meaning of my post.

Maybe Maddocks has a way to go to be the perfect No 15, but certainly on the evidence of his U20s performances and form at the Tahs, he is superior to Hodge and probably the equal (maybe better) than Banks and an out-of-form, regularly injured, on the decline DHP. You want to criticise him for not understanding field positoning, I suggest you go back and see what a fullback with little idea of where to stand, run, defend etc looks like by watching Hodge in the last test match.

Noah started the test match against the ABs when they were coming into form and hurting from a draw the week before. The whole team played atrociously. It was not a measure of Noah's skills as he showed in SRAu and his token appearance (one I think) off the bench. Any criticism of the performance of the team in Bledisloe 2 should be directed at Rennie for making so many changes to a side that must have been feeling highly confident in their abilities after holding arguably the best side in the world to a (winning) draw.

No where did I suggest any of Powell, Moeroa, Godwin, Harrison or Ikitau should replace any players who were selected. They were names of others who will be in the mix come RWC23 in response to your specific question to Fatprop. The next ridiculous set of questions just don't need a response because, again, I say that none of them were suggested for this or any test soon to come, They will be around come 2023.

As far as criticisms go, my comments were directed towards what the team should look like in 2021. The only criticisms I've made of Rennie's selections in last weekend's test are the perseverance with Simmons and Hanigan. I am not alone in that viewpoint. I have been critical of Hooper because imo he unbalances the backrow to its overall detriment, but with the emergence of Swinton at 6 I recognise, and have said so, that he is not so unsettling and remained the best option at 7 for this series. The problem was that once Swinton became unavailable, Rennie kept Hanigan either in the second row with Simmons or at 6. The lack of physicality was obvious, especially against the Pumas who dominated almost every one on one contact in the game.

I have also been critical of both Koroibete and Daugunu playing together, but that wasn't a factor in this last test.

Anyway, that's it for me. I have had my say and given reasons. Others can either agree or disagree.

 

[Slim 293]

It probably deserves to go in the Wallabies 2021 thread, but trying to find some positives.........

Props - We've got a good group there........

I thought Slipper was playing really well up until his injury.

AAA not scrummaging as well as he did last year, still holds his own and he puts in an enormous amount of work around the field.

Tupou has become beastly in the scrums.......... provided some good impact off the bench, but just needs to find some consistency in other parts of his game to be a full time starter.

Sio had a terrible year with the Brumbies, but seemed to improve over those last couple of matches and I thought he played well in the last test.

Angus Bell didn't shame himself in his cameos, and will likely be pushing other guys aside mentioned in a couple of years.

Philip was unlucky not to be a Wallaby last year, and thankfully he's re-signed with the Rebels.

Wilson will notch up a lot of caps..........

We seem to have a lot of good backrowers, but each of them come with a specific fault or lack of skillset and we've yet to really lock in a good balance.

Throughout the year the Wallabies often seemed to be under immense pressure at the breakdown with the ball, particularly against the All Blacks.

The other negative in our forward play was our embarrassing attempts to set up a driving maul............ premature ejaculation is how I'd describe it with the players attempting to drive before they've set it up properly, not adequately bound and the whole thing is over before it starts.

Lolesio should be better for the experience - I'm sure that in a proper test season Rennie would've had the opportunity to provide a better introduction to test rugby for some of the younger guys, and Lolesio suffered under those circumstances in his debut, along with Simone, against the All Blacks......... both of them looked much more sharp in their later bench appearances.

Paisami has really been a surprise revelation - I'd have him currently as the preferred 13 as his combined physicality, skill set and rugby smarts are currently better than Petaia.

Koroibete and Wright make a good balanced wing combination......... Daugunu can be lethal with the ball, as he was in the first test, but when combined with Koroibete (and Petaia) the total IQ in our outside backs was at an all time low.

Fullback still a bit of an issue.......... Banks finished the pick of the bunch by just being reliable, but he didn't really have a stellar year, and he doesn't seem to have the same speed that he did a couple of years ago when he chased down DMac.

DHP so often looks to be the obvious choice, but continues to bottle it against the top tier teams.

If Maddocks can mature as a player he should be a shoe in.

 

[Joe Blow]

I like the look of Maddocks too. However, he has been in camp the whole time and has had a couple of runs with the As. You would have to assume that Rennie and his assistants feel like he is not quite there yet. Another season at the back for the Tahs will be good for him and let us know if he is up to it.
Vunivalu will also be available and his season at the reds will give a good indication where his future lies.
Lots to be excited about for next year

 

[cyclopath]

It probably deserves to go in the Wallabies 2021 thread, but trying to find some positives...

Props - We've got a good group there....

I thought Slipper was playing really well up until his injury.

AAA not scrummaging as well as he did last year, still holds his own and he puts in an enormous amount of work around the field.

Tupou has become beastly in the scrums.... provided some good impact off the bench, but just needs to find some consistency in other parts of his game to be a full time starter.

Sio had a terrible year with the Brumbies, but seemed to improve over those last couple of matches and I thought he played well in the last test.

Angus Bell didn't shame himself in his cameos, and will likely be pushing other guys aside mentioned in a couple of years.

Philip was unlucky not to be a Wallaby last year, and thankfully he's re-signed with the Rebels.

Wilson will notch up a lot of caps....

We seem to have a lot of good backrowers, but each of them come with a specific fault or lack of skillset and we've yet to really lock in a good balance.

Throughout the year the Wallabies often seemed to be under immense pressure at the breakdown with the ball, particularly against the All Blacks.

The other negative in our forward play was our embarrassing attempts to set up a driving maul.... premature ejaculation is how I'd describe it with the players attempting to drive before they've set it up properly, not adequately bound and the whole thing is over before it starts.

Lolesio should be better for the experience - I'm sure that in a proper test season Rennie would've had the opportunity to provide a better introduction to test rugby for some of the younger guys, and Lolesio suffered under those circumstances in his debut, along with Simone, against the All Blacks... both of them looked much more sharp in their later bench appearances.

Paisami has really been a surprise revelation - I'd have him currently as the preferred 13 as his combined physicality, skill set and rugby smarts are currently better than Petaia.

Koroibete and Wright make a good balanced wing combination... Daugunu can be lethal with the ball, as he was in the first test, but when combined with Koroibete (and Petaia) the total IQ in our outside backs was at an all time low.

Fullback still a bit of an issue.... Banks finished the pick of the bunch by just being reliable, but he didn't really have a stellar year, and he doesn't seem to have the same speed that he did a couple of years ago when he chased down DMac.

DHP so often looks to be the obvious choice, but continues to bottle it against the top tier teams.

If Maddocks can mature as a player he should be a shoe in.

Fair appraisal.
Lolesio, Harrison, JOC (James O'Connor) and probably To'omua all need to be practising their goal-kicking (I'd suggest between 30-40 out and on the angles) all summer. Hodge too, I guess, but he can be kept for the novelty cannon kicks (like Jordie Barrett). We need much better options there. Somehow, the powers that bed need to get at least 1, if not 2, of the experienced Test locks from OS.
It was always likely to be a shit Test season to a large degree with 4 Tests against the ABs. Would have been rough to scorch too many newbies. The raw materials are there, but it might take another 12 months or more to get some consistent upside.

 

[Adam84]

Adam, straw man arguments galore? Certainly twisting the meaning of my post.

Maybe Maddocks has a way to go to be the perfect No 15, but certainly on the evidence of his U20s performances and form at the Tahs, he is superior to Hodge and probably the equal (maybe better) than Banks and an out-of-form, regularly injured, on the decline DHP. You want to criticise him for not understanding field positoning, I suggest you go back and see what a fullback with little idea of where to stand, run, defend etc looks like by watching Hodge in the last test match.

Noah started the test match against the ABs when they were coming into form and hurting from a draw the week before. The whole team played atrociously. It was not a measure of Noah's skills as he showed in SRAu and his token appearance (one I think) off the bench. Any criticism of the performance of the team in Bledisloe 2 should be directed at Rennie for making so many changes to a side that must have been feeling highly confident in their abilities after holding arguably the best side in the world to a (winning) draw.

No where did I suggest any of Powell, Moeroa, Godwin, Harrison or Ikitau should replace any players who were selected. They were names of others who will be in the mix come RWC23 in response to your specific question to Fatprop. The next ridiculous set of questions just don't need a response because, again, I say that none of them were suggested for this or any test soon to come, They will be around come 2023.

As far as criticisms go, my comments were directed towards what the team should look like in 2021. The only criticisms I've made of Rennie's selections in last weekend's test are the perseverance with Simmons and Hanigan. I am not alone in that viewpoint. I have been critical of Hooper because imo he unbalances the backrow to its overall detriment, but with the emergence of Swinton at 6 I recognise, and have said so, that he is not so unsettling and remained the best option at 7 for this series. The problem was that once Swinton became unavailable, Rennie kept Hanigan either in the second row with Simmons or at 6. The lack of physicality was obvious, especially against the Pumas who dominated almost every one on one contact in the game.

I have also been critical of both Koroibete and Daugunu playing together, but that wasn't a factor in this last test.

Anyway, that's it for me. I have had my say and given reasons. Others can either agree or disagree.

What was a strawman argument about what i said?

So let me get this right, are you suggesting Maddocks is the best fullback in Australian Rugby and should be the starting 15?

You claimed Noah was offered token opportunity.. I’m just pointing out that is false as he started a test match, he simply didn’t capitalise on the opportunity like other players did and earn further starts. Blame that on Rennie if you like..

BR, perhaps you should read back to the original comment which you disagreed with me on, my question to FatProp was on his comments about who is missing out on selection now and who is being overlooked now. No one was talking about the 2023 RWC until you mentioned it in this post.

 

[Forcefield]

Noah played in Bled 3. Two weeks after New Zealand's comfortable win in Auckland. Can't judge the poor guy for a test in which everyone was shit.

Funny thing is though that some people are happy to write DHP off for it. Especially funny since DHP was rushed back from injury to replace Banks, who was equally underwhelming in Auckland.

It'd be good to see the same standards applied to all.

 

[Viking]

Noah played in Bled 3. Two weeks after New Zealand's comfortable win in Auckland. Can't judge the poor guy for a test in which everyone was shit.

Funny thing is though that some people are happy to write DHP off for it. Especially funny since DHP was rushed back from injury to replace Banks, who was equally underwhelming in Auckland.

It'd be good to see the same standards applied to all.

DHP is just so god damn slow these days. And if he ain't reliable now with his loads of experience, then it's time to move on.

 

[Forcefield]

Would you say the same of Scott Sio?

 

[Slim 293]

Would you say the same of Scott Sio?

Nah, he had a decent game on the weekend.........

 

[Adam84]

Sio has had a forgettable year, he should be hitting his peak in scrummaging yet seems to struggle with consistency and just not hitting the same highs. I’m expecting Slipper and Bell will replace Sio as the LHPs in the Wallabies match day squad for next year. And at the current rate of development, Bell may become the preferred starting LHP.

 

[Dctarget]

Sio has had a forgettable year, he should be hitting his peak in scrummaging yet seems to struggle with consistency and just not hitting the same highs. I’m expecting Slipper and Bell will replace Sio as the LHPs in the Wallabies match day squad for next year. And at the current rate of development, Bell may become the preferred starting LHP.

I was more impressed with Bell's Wallabies appearances than I was his 'Tahs'.

 

[dru]

I was more impressed with Bell's Wallabies appearances than I was his 'Tahs'.

Even though I held a low bar of expectation, Bell easily surpassed it. I’m pleased there is genuinely a LHP ready to challenge him, but I do hope Sio knuckles in and gets himself back to his best.

Based on 2020 Sio is definitely at risk.

 

[wamberal]

I was more impressed with Bell's Wallabies appearances than I was his 'Tahs'.

He is in a much competitive pack at the national level.

 

[barbarian]

And what's wrong with that? That's how I see the team has been going over the years and I am putting forward my ideas of what's needed to turn things around over 2021/22. 2023 will be too late.

The issue is you said you wanted a 'new broom', but I have two issues with that.

1. We don't need a new broom, and
2. What you are proposing isn't really a new broom, it's just dropping players you have always disliked - Hooper, Simmons, Hanigan.

My view is the team we have picked this season is about right. It's a difficult season for a variety of reasons but Rennie has broadly taken it in the right direction.

Like you I like Hosea. I like McReight. I like Valetini. I like Lolesio, but his case is indicative and it's why I'm against your 'new broom' theory.

There's an assumption that throwing these blokes in to test rugby now will lead to better results in the long run. Yeah they might lose a bit, but they will learn from the losses and by 2022-3 they will be world beaters. But look at Bledisloe 3: did that do Noah's career any good? I don't think so, in fact I think it set him back.

Getting the young guys around the camp, giving them a few minutes off the bench, being cautious with their test rugby baby steps is the way to go. To me it's better for them to be on the bench in a win than starting in a loss.

Rennie has walked a fine line with the young guys, and I think he's done it pretty well. I might have liked one Hosea bench appearance, or a Valetini starting appearance, but that's splitting hairs really. He's left us pretty well placed for 2021, and we start the Super year with a number of spots to play for.

I hope Rennie has instilled them with confidence and they can put the runs on the board and we can actually mount a form-based argument that McReight or Hosea are in our best XV.
.

 

[Forcefield]

Nah, he had a decent game on the weekend...

One swallow doesn't make a summer. One decent game, an okay game two weeks before (two crucial penalties against), several pretty poor games. I'd have thought the DHP comparison was pretty fair.

 

[Slim 293]

One swallow doesn't make a summer. One decent game, an okay game two weeks before (two crucial penalties against), several pretty poor games. I'd have thought the DHP comparison was pretty fair.

That’s true, but Sio’s poor form this year is not consistent with previous years when he was the first choice Wallaby LH...........

Improvement in recent games is hopefully an indicator this year has been a blip in an otherwise impressive career...........

DHP on the other hand seems to have all the indicators during Super Rugby that he should be our starting fullback, but in recent years has performed poorly against the best teams when finally shifted from the wing - who could forget his shocker against England a couple of years ago on the spring tour?

 

[Adam84]

I find it hard to keep up with when it suitable to reference previous years form and when it isn’t, seems to change from player to player.

Regardless, even with his poor form in 2020 Sio is still in the top 3 LHP’s, and all squads need at least 3 props to cover each position. So unless he has an absolute shocker in 2021 he will be in the squad again. In hindsight thought, Slipper moving to the Brumbies has proven to be a negative for Sio with less consistent game time

 

[dru]

In hindsight thought, Slipper moving to the Brumbies has proven to be a negative for Sio with less consistent game time

Has it though? My recollection is that Slipper started more on the bench than #1.

 

[Adam84]

Has it though? My recollection is that Slipper started more on the bench than #1.

Yeah, in 2018 before Slipper arrived Sio was averaging 57mins a game... In 2019 the year Slipper arrived, Sios average game time dropped down to 43 mins, and then in 2020 it dropped down further to 34 mins.James Slipper on the other hand averaged 38min in 2019, and increased to 49mins in 2020.

Compare this to AAA and Tupou who both average over 60mins a game across the same period.

*2020 figures only include the first 7 games of the year, dont have SRAU stats.

 

[Braveheart81]

With Slipper surpassing Sio at the Brumbies it maybe suggests that Sio will need to look elsewhere for a starting gig if he doesn't want to see his Wallaby aspirations gradually diminish.

Correlation isn't causation and all that but maybe Sio needs to ensure he gets more minutes at Super Rugby level.