Wallabies v Pumas, Bankwest (Parra), Sat 5th December

[fatprop]

Yeah but who are these player that you speak of, Wright is one example you've named, but who fills out the rest of the backline, who is getting overlooked that should be starting in the backline?

It is less on who is overlooked and more about who is being preferred

 

[Braveheart81]

If I was advocating dropping all those who participated in a 33% winning percentage, I'd be demanding the whole team be dropped. Look closer, you'll see I am advocating for certain of the longer term players who are part of an ingrained failure culture to be replaced. Same team in 21, same results. That might satisfy some here, but not me.

We've got a very different looking team this season and the results have been worse.

Of course I'm not advocating that Wilson gets dropped. I'm arguing that we're largely picking the best players we have and whether they've been there a short period of time or a long period of time is irrelevant to that.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yeah but who are these player that you speak of, Wright is one example you've named, but who fills out the rest of the backline, who is getting overlooked that should be starting in the backline?

How about, Tate, Lolesio, Ramm, Simone, Paisami, Wright, Maddocks. Maybe mostly off the bench to start with, but as a target backline to develop with the team culture and skills that FP is wanting.

 

[Adam84]

It is less on who is overlooked and more about who is being preferred

If someone is being preferred, then who are the alternatives?
You’re the one criticising the selections so I’m genuinely interested in who should have been selected? What does this lineup look like?

 

[Adam84]

How about, Tate, Lolesio, Ramm, Simone, Paisami, Wright, Maddocks. Maybe mostly off the bench to start with, but as a target backline to develop with the team culture and skills that FP is wanting.

Most of those did play off bench though, or got opportunities this series.
And I’ll also point out, that Maddocks is the very definition of selecting on potential rather then being a technically proficient player.

 

[Joe Blow]

FP, you’re way off on this one. He picked the best possible players available. If you are talking about Kurindrani, Samu and players like Naisarani........they have all had their chances.
Looking forward and not back is smart.
We need to play a modern game that will take us back to near the peak of world rugby. Rennie knows what he is doing and he is laying the foundation. Hopefully we can convince a couple of key OS players to return and some more of the exciting young talent comes through.
Picking older solid players in order to minimise damage is definitely not the way to take the game in Australia forward.
BTW, we have no world class forwards outside of Hooper to speak of either right now. There is potential in the likes of TT and Harry Wilson as there is in some of the young backs.
Looking forward to seeing them develop further next year.

 

[Viking]

Most of those did play off bench though, or got opportunities this series.
And I’ll also point out, that Maddocks is the very definition of selecting on potential rather then being a technically proficient player.

Agreed, if you want your 'safe' player who does the basics well, then you go with Banks. But personally, and I think most of you would agree, it would have been nice to see what Maddocks can bring.

Same goes for half the players BR named. Lolesio, Simone, Paisami and even Wright were all selected on potential. We didn't know Wright could do the basics well at Test level until after he was selected.

So really, the only player over-looked was Kuridrani, but he had an uninspiring season and Petaia was great last year at Test level in the few games he had.

I can't think of any other contenders? Start Simmons? Who would seriously want to do that.

 

[Viking]

FP, you’re way off on this one. He picked the best possible players available. If you are talking about Kurindrani, Samu and players like Naisarani....they have all had their chances.
Looking forward and not back is smart.
We need to play a modern game that will take us back to near the peak of world rugby. Rennie knows what he is doing and he is laying the foundation. Hopefully we can convince a couple of key OS players to return and some more of the exciting young talent comes through.
Picking older solid players in order to minimise damage is definitely not the way to take the game in Australia forward.
BTW, we have no world class forwards outside of Hooper to speak of either right now. There is potential in the likes of TT and Harry Wilson as there is in some of the young backs.
Looking forward to seeing them develop further next year.

Bit pessimistic there about our forwards. I think we are nearly there. TT is so close to being world-class, some would argue he is already there if it wasn't for his discipline. AAA, Slipper are solid as well. Sio has been average but we know he can step it up. Hooker is serviceable without being outstanding but we just need one of those blokes to sharpen up 5% and they are there.

Locks are an issue, but boy I have loved Philip this year. He is Test level without a doubt. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) returns will help depth, and maybe Rodda too if he's around. I do hope here we have some overseas guys come back: Arnold, Skelton, Colman will help.

Backrow is great going forward. Hooper a lock in - but Wright and McReight gunning for him. Samu could easily slot in for him in the short-term. Harry is perfect at 8. Dempsey and Naisa have performed at test level before and only need to find form again.
6 - Swinton looks the goods, Dempsey could be considered here too. I wish we had another option here though (who can jump in the line-out).

 

[Joe Blow]

Bit pessimistic there about our forwards. I think we are nearly there. TT is so close to being world-class, some would argue he is already there if it wasn't for his discipline. AAA, Slipper are solid as well. Sio has been average but we know he can step it up. Hooker is serviceable without being outstanding but we just need one of those blokes to sharpen up 5% and they are there.

Locks are an issue, but boy I have loved Philip this year. He is Test level without a doubt. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) returns will help depth, and maybe Rodda too if he's around. I do hope here we have some overseas guys come back: Arnold, Skelton, Colman will help.

Backrow is great going forward. Hooper a lock in - but Wright and McReight gunning for him. Samu could easily slot in for him in the short-term. Harry is perfect at 8. Dempsey and Naisa have performed at test level before and only need to find form again.
6 - Swinton looks the goods, Dempsey could be considered here too. I wish we had another option here though (who can jump in the line-out).

I think we are lacking a bit at lock and hooker. Philip was excellent.
Not pessimistic but realise that we need to bring these young blokes through rather than going back to those on their way out of test rugby.
Another full year of Super Rugby will help the development also for players like Hosea, Blyth and Swain. If we can temp Rodda to return then it will help. He is still young and a hardened test lock already. I assume some of those recently departed will sign for 22/23 in order to be eligible for the RWC.
I am not negative about the state of play of Oz rugby and think Rennie will take us where we need to go with the available talent.

 

[Braveheart81]

Our forward pack are now better than our backs which is a turnaround from where we've been over the last few years.

Hooker is probably our biggest weakness. This has become a superstar position for many teams and we don't have anyone in that range. Our lineout has also been a big weakness this season.

Lock and 6 are probably our other two weakest positions but they have largely held their own this test season. We lack a 6 that looks like becoming anything more than serviceable at test level though.

We really need someone to step up and replace Rob Simmons. He was our next best lock after Philip this test season and a) he's not going to be around much longer and b) we need to improve on that.

 

[PhilClinton]

BPA has a real opportunity to work on his game next year at Super level and lock that spot down. He turns 25 soon, still lots of footy ahead of him.

To say he was disappointing for large chunks at the set piece for the Reds would be an understatement, and he managed to overcome that and have a mostly successful time for the Wallabies.

He will work on those areas in the off-season, as they can be improved with practice, and he is clearly useful around the park. I like what I saw with him to the point I reckon he can be the strike hooker that we need. There really is no one else currently knocking on the door who has that type of opportunity in front of them.

 

[Brumby Runner]

We've got a very different looking team this season and the results have been worse.

Of course I'm not advocating that Wilson gets dropped. I'm arguing that we're largely picking the best players we have and whether they've been there a short period of time or a long period of time is irrelevant to that.

That's where we fundamentally disagree BH. I think the time they've had in the system is very relevant. I am prepared to be quite patient with those who have only recently been added to the Wallabies squad but I deplore the continued presence of players of many years standing who are underperforming.

For the present day Wallabies, I would prefer a new broom while it seems you would prefer the status quo. Reminds me of our respective positions on Michael Cheika as national coach since 2015.

 

[Braveheart81]

That's where we fundamentally disagree BH. I think the time they've had in the system is very relevant. I am prepared to be quite patient with those who have only recently been added to the Wallabies squad but I deplore the continued presence of players of many years standing who are underperforming.

Several of the players you rate as underperforming are the players others rate as our best and most consistent.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Most of those did play off bench though, or got opportunities this series.
And I’ll also point out, that Maddocks is the very definition of selecting on potential rather then being a technically proficient player.

No. Maddocks was a standout and all round proficient at fullback for the U20s. His form dropped off at the Rebels and in the Wallabies when selected on the wing. He is a much better player for the Tahs now at fullback though somewhat inconsistent probably because he was dicked around in the meantime.

As for them already being bench players, Tate, Noah and Irae have had token opportunities only, while Ramm and Maddocks haven't been seen at all. Only Hunter has had good time but mostly out of position.

There are others who should also come under or remain under consideration next year - Joe Powell, Will Harrison, Jordan Petaia, Len Ikitau, Tepai Moeroa and maybe Kyle Godwin (I'm not a fan). Plenty of options for a new start.

 

[barbarian]

Yes, it's the classic "I think we need a new broom, by which I mean keeping the experienced players I like, while dispensing of the ones I do not like".

 

[Adam84]

No. Maddocks was a standout and all round proficient at fullback for the U20s. His form dropped off at the Rebels and in the Wallabies when selected on the wing. He is a much better player for the Tahs now at fullback though somewhat inconsistent probably because he was dicked around in the meantime.

As for them already being bench players, Tate, Noah and Irae have had token opportunities only, while Ramm and Maddocks haven't been seen at all. Only Hunter has had good time but mostly out of position.

There are others who should also come under or remain under consideration next year - Joe Powell, Will Harrison, Jordan Petaia, Len Ikitau, Tepai Moeroa and maybe Kyle Godwin (I'm not a fan). Plenty of options for a new start.

No what? Maddocks selection at U20s doesn’t refute comments about his lacking technical understanding. He is the most naturally gifted fullback in Australian rugby ATM, but he doesn’t understand field positioning very well, his kicking game is pretty poor and he really doesn’t seem to know what to do at the ruck.

Noah started a test match, that’s hardly token. He was dropped because he struggled badly. Other guys like Wright, Phillips, Bell and Paisami capitalised on their chances and earned subseauent selections.
I agree that I would have liked to see more from Tate, but acknowledge he needs to adjust his game a bit to suit test rugby.

I really don’t think Joe Powell, Moeroa, Godwin, Harrison or Ikatau earned their positions ahead of any of the players that were selected, or demonstrated that they were more complete players.

If they were selected who would have Moeroa, Simone, Godwin or Ikatau replaced? Hunter Paisami? He is one player you’re saying earned his spot. How do we fit Nic White, Powell and McDermott into the same team? Im not saying I agree with all the selections, but I question some of the comments on here from people who broadly criticise the selections but dont really offer a realistic or practical alternative.

If you think you can select a better team, then just name it so we can all see it..

 

[Viking]

Our forward pack are now better than our backs which is a turnaround from where we've been over the last few years.

Hooker is probably our biggest weakness. This has become a superstar position for many teams and we don't have anyone in that range. Our lineout has also been a big weakness this season.

Lock and 6 are probably our other two weakest positions but they have largely held their own this test season. We lack a 6 that looks like becoming anything more than serviceable at test level though.

We really need someone to step up and replace Rob Simmons. He was our next best lock after Philip this test season and a) he's not going to be around much longer and b) we need to improve on that.

I think last year our forward pack was quite good as well, but our backs very very poor. Especially in RWC. Ironcially, Hooker and locks were probably a strength of ours in RWC.

 

[eastman]

That's where we fundamentally disagree BH. I think the time they've had in the system is very relevant. I am prepared to be quite patient with those who have only recently been added to the Wallabies squad but I deplore the continued presence of players of many years standing who are underperforming.

What do you think it means when the players who 'underperform' for the Wallabies, in most instances, consistently outperform all their competitors at the levels below international rugby?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Several of the players you rate as underperforming are the players others rate as our best and most consistent.

Possibly so, and in some cases they might be right and I might be wrong, but I have posted my views and given reasons Can't say every one does that.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yes, it's the classic "I think we need a new broom, by which I mean keeping the experienced players I like, while dispensing of the ones I do not like".

And what's wrong with that? That's how I see the team has been going over the years and I am putting forward my ideas of what's needed to turn things around over 2021/22. 2023 will be too late.

Of the others I wish to see retained, who would you disagree with?

Sio is probably first off the rank, and I do believe he will come under more and more pressure if he doesn't rectify his scrummaging. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) would be my pick as first replacement with Bell as his understudy, if it happens. OTOH, Sio will still be in his prime in 2023 as a prop, and if he gets back to the form we know he can play, then he is still well and truly in the mix for 23.

BPA/FF (Folau Fainga'a)/Uelese - no others are yet in their class and I doubt Horton will make it unless he suddenly grows another 10kg or so.

AAA/TT - both world class, and certainly best available for the Wallabies.

Philip - not yet experienced but a real find. Must say both BH and I earmarked him some years ago.

Naisarani - I haven't specifically mentioned him, but he is our best No 8 and should return. Wilson will absolutely thrive at No 6.

White - Tate may/will overtake him at some stage, but he will still be in the mix for RWC in 23. Has been one of the best performers this year and is playing as good as he ever has.

OK, you seem to have a problem with someone I've left in, which is he and why?