Wallabies v Georgia 20 July - Allianz Stadium 3.45PM
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TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
Fair questions. Weren’t the Australia A games over the last 2 yrs done without video ref. And most of the women’s games. And club games.
We often say sport is in the entertainment business. I know that reducing the video refs influence will lead to complaints for wrong decisions. But that actually happens now anyway - all the time. Refs still cop unacceptable levels of abuse with the video ref. But people HATE the delays the video ref causes. I reckon most would deal with the change.
I guess I can only speak for myself. I’d like to think I would 100% accept a change where the video ref was removed and their role was limited to post game review for citing of illegal play. Teams would have to accept players getting cited in review and suspended. We can’t move away from strong action against dangerous play.
I guess the ones I am conflicted on is ruling on tries. Again I reckon I’d be okay with that being left in the onfield refs hands. And serious foul play. I reckon I’d want to leave the video ref with some ability to get involved with serious foul play.
All that said - can’t see it actually changing.
Rob42
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Yeah, good point - you don't get any replays on screen at large soccer matches, because they don't want to get the crowd outraged at any possible infringement, so the same would probably happen if we dropped the TMO.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Yeah, those Australia A games without were exactly the sort I was referring to as being "without consequence" - generally one off friendlies, played outside of a meaningful competition with the focus being player development. People enjoy getting on with the game there, but have obviously wrong decisions go against their team that a video ref would've picked up in an important competition and fans would change their tune quickly.
But aside from that, foul play and player safety I'd the reason it won't change. Leaving players on the field because incidents weren't picked up at the time is a path world rugby will not walk down (regardless of whether or not they are getting them all with a video ref). More likely we see bunker style systems used more and more to standardise things in competition.
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Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
The reality is that rugby's current use of TMO is at odds with how other professional sports around the world are using them. Domestically, you can look at the NRL, which has adopted principles from the NFL and other professional US sports, which lead the market in terms of fan engagement and manufacturing interest through broadcast techniques.
These sports use TMO, but they've put limits on it and do it in a timely and engaging manner. Rugby Unions' use is dire. It's slow and confusing, happens minutes after the act/event, and half the time, the referee and the TMO can't even hear each other, which is exacerbated by language differences. It comes across as amateur hour.
World Rugby is a lumbering beast when it comes to adopting best practices, and it's damaging the game by failing to keep up with those other codes and competitions which are adapting and innovating.
These sports use TMO, but they've put limits on it and do it in a timely and engaging manner. Rugby Unions' use is dire. It's slow and confusing, happens minutes after the act/event, and half the time, the referee and the TMO can't even hear each other, which is exacerbated by language differences. It comes across as amateur hour.
World Rugby is a lumbering beast when it comes to adopting best practices, and it's damaging the game by failing to keep up with those other codes and competitions which are adapting and innovating.
Adam I don't disagree the TMO is a farce in rugby, but I do think you're being very generous to other codes.
The use of video technology is problematic in almost every sport. It sucks in the NBA, because it takes way too long and generally looks at very 50/50 calls. NFL have constantly had to change theirs, again it takes ages but also it arbitrarily limited what could be challenged (which basically cost the Saints a playoff game, but that's a discussion for another day), AFL can't even get goal-line calls correct (hello Adelaide), and most soccer fans I know hate VAR with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.
It's a problem for everyone, with the exception of tennis. And cricket as well, though you still have plenty of DRS outrage every summer.
I don't think there's a 'best practice' out there we can copy, especially given the idiosyncratic nature of our laws.
The use of video technology is problematic in almost every sport. It sucks in the NBA, because it takes way too long and generally looks at very 50/50 calls. NFL have constantly had to change theirs, again it takes ages but also it arbitrarily limited what could be challenged (which basically cost the Saints a playoff game, but that's a discussion for another day), AFL can't even get goal-line calls correct (hello Adelaide), and most soccer fans I know hate VAR with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.
It's a problem for everyone, with the exception of tennis. And cricket as well, though you still have plenty of DRS outrage every summer.
I don't think there's a 'best practice' out there we can copy, especially given the idiosyncratic nature of our laws.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
A nice little write up on Frost's performance from the weekend...
www.rugbypass.com
How 'gazelle' Nick Frost thawed the hearts of Wallaby fans at Suncorp
The giant Brumbies lock delivered a timely reminder of his vast athletic talent - and some key improvements.
www.rugbypass.com
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
Nah i dont think i'm being generous, these other codes compared to rugby have taken massive strides and attempted to improve the process, rugby union is a laggard. I didn't say anyone in particular was perfect. However, NFL, NRL, etc, have all invested heavily in ensuring a minimum level of service and consistency from TMO equivalent services in their sports, which rugby has not done.
The NRL Bunker system is a case and point, which itself was an adaptation of the NFLs Art Mcnally Gameday Central hub for instant replay review. That is a centralised system with augmented instant replay capacity that pulls up multiple angles simultaneously to analyse a decision and ensure it's done faster and more accurately.
Rugby doesn't offer this; they tried it for the RWC, but as far as I'm aware, no competition has implemented this otherwise(certainly not Super Rugby or standard Test Matches). It's why we have these dreadful pauses and delays waiting for TMOs to try and pull up different angles to step through the event. Furthermore, referring to a centralised 'hub' using the same staff allows for consistent officiating from a 'TMO teamn' across multiple games.
If you improve the consistency and timeliness of TMO input, then people will absolutely be much happier with the product.
Tomthumb
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I watch these other sports and cant agree with this
The NRL bunker is certainly not overly fast, and still ends up getting calls wrong. Just last week they checked a tackle and failed to see that it was clearly high because they were too bust looking to see if it was late
The NBA system is laughable too. Calls take way too long, and only certain things can be checked. It was farcical during the Western conference finals when they had to check who the ball went out off and the replay clearly showed a foul but they weren't allowed to call it due to only being allowed to check the out of bounds
The NFL system is broken also. Takes forever, and ends up just being a face saving exercise for the refs as they often refuse to overturn obvious calls as it would mean they were wrong initially. Also the arbitrary rules around what you can check mean blatant things cant be called
And VAR might be the single most maligned thing in Soccer
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I don't know that VAR is implemented badly necessarily. It's more that its far more jarring with the inherent flowing nature of football. Football has very little stoppage time and is generally not overly precise with things like where a freekick should be taken from or where a ball needs to be thrown in etc.
Its so much more jarring than in a rugby context where there are loads of stoppages already. It also interferes with the moment of greatest excitement i.e. when a goal is scored. Far fewer of these moments in football than rugby etc.
Its so much more jarring than in a rugby context where there are loads of stoppages already. It also interferes with the moment of greatest excitement i.e. when a goal is scored. Far fewer of these moments in football than rugby etc.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
So you disagree that the NFL & NRL make decisions in a more timely and consistent manner then what we experience rugby union?
The NFL may have a fancy bunker but the referee still has to jog over to the sideline and watch on a little monitor before making the call. Takes just as long as the TMO in rugby, maybe longer.
Their issue isn't so much the stoppage (because they have heaps of them anyway and they can just sell more ads), but the erratic nature of what can and cannot be challenged. And when. So I'd wager it's just as much a mess as rugby.
Their issue isn't so much the stoppage (because they have heaps of them anyway and they can just sell more ads), but the erratic nature of what can and cannot be challenged. And when. So I'd wager it's just as much a mess as rugby.
Adam84
Rod McCall (65)
The time lost is procedural, requiring the ref to jog to the sideline. Rugby does not have this issue, and despite this, the time blows out.
In terms of average time to make a decision, NRL has previously advertised the bunker as taking 55 seconds, NFL takes 2min 20 as of 2022, and rugby stats are hard to find, but reporting from 2019 RWC said it averaged 2min 40.
Again not saying NRL/NFL are perfect, but they do work faster and more consistently than rugbys. It’s a multi-layered approach that’s needed, and this is part of the solution in addition to reducing the reach of the TMO.
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KiwiM
Arch Winning (36)
Would be interesting to see more recent figures (not saying they are available) but it feels like 2019 was nearly the peak of poor TMO involvement and that things have improved since then.
Tomthumb
Peter Fenwicke (45)
They don't do it noticeably faster IMO, the big difference is the ability for the TMO to be involved
In the NFL, only turnovers and touchdowns are automatically reviewed, other than that coaches have to challenge a call to get the TMO to look at it at all. And even then they can only challenge certain things
In rugby we have somehow fallen into the TMO having the most authority out of anyone, being able to stop the game when ever he wants to look at something. This to me is the problem, and why it feels so disjointed and delayed
Yoda
Cyril Towers (30)
The TMO should view something numerous times … make decision while game is playing on… then contact referee to go back and change ruling. Less time wasting.
Tomthumb
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Or just don't get involved
Yoda
Cyril Towers (30)
What are your thoughts on penalised teams walking back with ball or throwing it away to prevent a quick tap? Often right in front of touchline referees along with match referee? Surely not in spirit of the game and can be stamped out very quickly by marching the offending team 10m. It pisses me off this tactic.