Wallabies v Argentina Sat 2 October CBus Stadium

[formerflanker]

not even chatting about Hooper playing on the wing for 15 minutes

Or, as the anti-Hooper cynics would say, his usual position.
Haven't they been proved wrong.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The usual, bad passes in or near contact

From memory and even media reports stated there was one bad pass vs a lot of good passes, good territory positioning and threatening olays on attack. I think personally people have got bias against JP on past performances and not seeing the good things he did In this game. I just think the criticism of JP on this game is over the top on here personally. But hey everyone has different views I guess.

 

[Adam84]

Or simply, as suggested in my earlier post, something he thinks is to help him but is hurting him. It could be performance based or for a medical condition / injury he has. EG (all legal):

Whether you meant it, I think people took exception to the legality discussions in your original post when you used the Essendon Bombers as the example. Because what they did was highly illegal and investigated by both ASADA and WADA leading to over 30 players receiving multiple year bans.

 

[Brumby Runner]

According the internet Petaia didn’t play rugby until he went to Brisbane Boys High, was a league player before and I imagine up until he sign with the Reds was heavily involved in League as well as Union.
Petaia has the issues that you see in league kids that turn up at rugby schools there judgement is terrible. Their athleticism is outstanding but their judgement is shocking, they get away with it at schoolboy level at a professional level athleticism is better across the entirety of the team and they get found out. They bring league judgement and strategy to Union that just doesn’t work.
In league your backs generally only get heavily involved in the game when deep in the oppositions 20 and late in the tackle account. Throw a risky off load or low percentage pass what does it matter it’s tackle 5 you hand the ball over on tackle 6. It’s not like kicking for territory is an option and the rules have negated the effectiveness of the bomb in league.
To me that is the essence of Petaia’s issue great athlete, in the simple world of league a good player but somewhat short of the necessary smarts when it comes to rugby.
Kellaway is nowhere near the athlete that Petaia is, however Kellaways rugby smarts are a long long way ahead of Petaia’s at present.

Interesting history for Petaia. Almost identical to Len Ikitau's intro to rugby until he signed with the Brumbies rather than the Reds. Can't say that Len has any issues with his rugby smarts though.

 

[RugbyReg]

Interesting history for Petaia. Almost identical to Len Ikitau's intro to rugby until he signed with the Brumbies rather than the Reds. Can't say that Len has any issues with his rugby smarts though.

keeping to brand. Nice work BR!

 

[cyclopath]

Or simply, as suggested in my earlier post, something he thinks is to help him but is hurting him. It could be performance based or for a medical condition / injury he has. EG (all legal):

Beta-2 Agonists [medical use of these compounds is to treat conditions such as asthma and other respiratory ailments. Some studies have shown beta-2 agonists have performance-enhancing effects] -side effects: Muscle cramps

Diuretics [primary medical use of these compounds is to treat conditions such as hypertension, kidney disease. They may be used by athletes to reduce their weight. Can be used for masking] -side effects: Muscle cramps, Dehydration

Corticosteroids [primary medical use of these compounds is to treat allergies, asthma, inflammatory conditions] - side effects: Loss of muscle mass, weakening of injured areas in muscle, bone, tendon, or ligaments

Creatine [naturally occurring compound produced by your body that helps your muscles release energy. Scientific research indicates that creatine may have some athletic benefit by producing small gains in short-term bursts of power. It is the number-one sports performance supplement available ] -side effects: Stomach cramps, muscle cramps, dehydration

Beta agonists and diuretics are restricted or prohibited for rugby in Australia. The conditional exemption for the former would be asthma.
Data on creatine is very mixed - some studies suggest increased cramping, others reduced.

 

[Wilson]

Tupou's worst game in a while. I love that he has a short passing game but he just needs to stick his head down and use those tree trunk legs to gain a couple of post contact metres more often.

He was pretty fortunate they didn't take a closer look at the no arm hit as well.

Definitely wasn't his best with ball in hand but he did have the Argies pack on toast at the scrum - turned one of his knock-ons into a penalty 25m out and right in front for a 3 point gain. Also put a few good dominant hits on, not just the questionable one.

 

[Derpus]

Definitely wasn't his best with ball in hand but he did have the Argies pack on toast at the scrum - turned one of his knock-ons into a penalty 25m out and right in front for a 3 point gain. Also put a few good dominant hits on, not just the questionable one.

Yeah his bad games are still good ones.

 

[wamberal]

How dare you. The Waratahs would do well to bring back Phil to relaunch an era of dominance. And Tom Carter while they are at it.

Why not really stoop and bring back Jeremy Tilse.

 

[TSR]

The weekend’s games created a really interesting contrast for me. On the one hand the Wallabies, by and large, put together some very well constructed attack with good hands across the board, players hitting holes at speed, improving support play and options inside and out. Yeah, it broke down at times, particularly in the last 20, but most of the game the attack was very well executed. A few kicks went too long, a couple of passes missed their target or were forward. We hit the wrong target at least once. But otherwise all the signs are there that were well on the way to have a well executed attacking game plan based on speed, skill and variety.

On the flip side the ABs, who are closest in style to where we seem to be heading, were beaten again (and I used that term loosely since it is still a very rare event) by a defence which basically ran up and belted the stuffing out of them. And whilst this has provoked a number of responses in a Kiwi media about how the ABs forwards have no muscle or impact and their backs lacked a big body, the reality is they lost at the death by the narrowest of margins.

My question in all this is that if the goal here is to regularly beat the ABs (and that must be the goal) do we try and fight fire with fire and back ourselves to get better at what they do well, or do we change tack a bit and try and find our own versions of De Jagar, Etzebeth, PSDT (yes I know he didn’t play on the weekend) and Itoje.

The answer is, of course, a little from column A & a little from column B and it seems that is already where Rennie is heading. He has been rewarded by Valetini really kicking on in the last couple of games and Kerevi showing he is a better, more rounded player then before. Tupou gives us more muscle in the front row and, personally I feel Fainga'a has actually shown a resurgence as a test player when it seemed, up until a couple of tests ago, his star was very much on the wane. Yes, his throwing needs some real work but, in truth, he is no worse in that department than any of the other options including Latu. The bigger issue is his habit of cannonballing into tackles and rucks. But this should also be the most fixable of his issues. The real gap here is in the row and at 6. And I think there are some really important decisions to be made.

I started doing a critique of each of the aspirants, but this post started turning into War & Peace so, instead, I’ll focus on a view on 3.

- Arnold is probably the best placed to provide what we need at present. I’ve noted before that I personally don’t feel he has taken his A game to test level, but his A game fits the almost exact bill. Massive unit, even by lock standards, good mobility, good lineout operator, good maul defender. Doesn’t have the greatest hands but they aren’t terrible either. I’ll be very interested how he goes on the European tour
- I haven’t seen Skelton play for years, so I’m leaning heavenly on what I read here but the things I know are that he is big, powerful and has great hands. I’ve also read his fitness has improved a mile and his work rate around the field is excellent. I’ve read he does get used as a lineout target - but in a statistical piece done by Nic Bishop that stats show that this is still a rarity (averaging less than 1 per game). I have real concerns how this works work in the current Wallabies set up. As a minimum it would make Swinton almost essential at 6 (or possibly someone like Hanigan who would need to be charged to spend the game securing break down ball).

The guy I would really like to see kick on is Salakai-Loto. No doubt my Reds bias kicks in here and I will say up front that potential wins nothing. At present I would have Salakai-Loto, when available, in a line at the front of the domestic queue of locks but not by any significant margin. He is a good blend of physicality and athleticism. Has good hands and appears strong in the scrums, decent in the lineout (although not great) and a reasonable maul defender. What he isn’t (yet - hopefully) is the player I thought he was going to be. When I first saw him as a 20 year old I was hopeful he would develop like Itoje & PSDT have. A genuine world class game changer. Of our current locks he is the only one that I think could still get there. He is only young, but he also old enough that we should be expecting him to really kick on now. It’s not great to pin too many hopes on one player but he really does have potential that I don’t see in any of the other options to be the best of all worlds. But yes - the word there is potential.

So the sum total of all of this is that I am really happy with how the Wallabies are tracking but to take the next step we need a further evolution where not only are we athletic and attacking but also more physical imposing. I don’t see the development of Salakai-Loto as essential but I do see the opportunity for him to be a game changer.

Two last notes -
- I am aware that a big part of the Boks heating the ABs was the use of their kicking game. That is just not a path we are going to head down (and nor would I want to) so our quick paced attack needs to keep improving to create pressure in a different manner.
- whatever the Wallabies achieve over the spring tour there is going to remain a big question mark until we play the ABs again, and rightly so. Nonetheless this period is an absolute gift for Rennie to really progress the squad, broaden their experience and exposure and continue to build. A lot of these guys are going to be tested by conditions and game style that they aren’t used to. I don’t expect every game to be pretty, but I am looking forward to the ride. Bring on the tour.

 

[Derpus]

LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto)'s current issue seems to be workrate. 2/3 games he looks hungover. Then you get the 1/3 where he really puts in and you can see why he keeps getting caps.

That, his carrying technique is still a bit shite and he's fairly ill-disciplined.

Also, I think we are definitely heading towards a more kick oriented game under Rennie. Not quite the 'quick Faf another box-kick' strategy but we use kicks a lot now.

 

[TSR]

See, that’s one criticism I don’t agree with at all. IMO Salakai-Lott’s work rate is very good. He’s generally high up on the tackle count and has plenty of carry’s. He’s good in the middle of the field and links well out wide. He’s a generally decent lineout target and he gets stuck in in maul defence.

my concerns are more that he doesn’t always get the post contact metres I’d like to see from him or put in as many punishing tackles as I’d like. He is capable of both but doesn’t do as many as I’d like. I also don’t think he’s ever been part of a dominant lineout which is why I’ve only given him a pass in that regard. I don’t see why he can’t be - but he hasn’t really. His discipline did need some work but I think he was pretty good through Super this year and in the tests he played.

I’d argue strongly that it’s quality not quantity where he is falling down from being in that next level of elite locks.

Edit: with regards to kicks, I agree and I say thank God. Nothing Cheika did was stupider than proclaim that not kicking the ball was ‘the Australian Way’ and thereby inviting teams to strangle us. An intelligent and varied kicking game is an essential part of good rugby. One of the reasons I was very keen on the appointments of both Rennie and Wisemantle is that I know both of them use kicking as part of their strategy. I don’t even mind a reasonable amount of box kicking as part of the overall mix - because, done well, it creates attacking opportunities.

But the Boks can keep their ‘kick or die’ game plan all to themselves.

 

[Dctarget]

I just don't see where LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) fits in with our current locks. I'd have him below Philip, Rodda, Swain (and Skelton & Arnold too).

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The weekend’s games created a really interesting contrast for me. On the one hand the Wallabies, by and large, put together some very well constructed attack with good hands across the board, players hitting holes at speed, improving support play and options inside and out. Yeah, it broke down at times, particularly in the last 20, but most of the game the attack was very well executed. A few kicks went too long, a couple of passes missed their target or were forward. We hit the wrong target at least once. But otherwise all the signs are there that were well on the way to have a well executed attacking game plan based on speed, skill and variety.

On the flip side the ABs, who are closest in style to where we seem to be heading, were beaten again (and I used that term loosely since it is still a very rare event) by a defence which basically ran up and belted the stuffing out of them. And whilst this has provoked a number of responses in a Kiwi media about how the ABs forwards have no muscle or impact and their backs lacked a big body, the reality is they lost at the death by the narrowest of margins.

My question in all this is that if the goal here is to regularly beat the ABs (and that must be the goal) do we try and fight fire with fire and back ourselves to get better at what they do well, or do we change tack a bit and try and find our own versions of De Jagar, Etzebeth, PSDT (yes I know he didn’t play on the weekend) and Itoje.

The answer is, of course, a little from column A & a little from column B and it seems that is already where Rennie is heading. He has been rewarded by Valetini really kicking on in the last couple of games and Kerevi showing he is a better, more rounded player then before. Tupou gives us more muscle in the front row and, personally I feel Fainga'a has actually shown a resurgence as a test player when it seemed, up until a couple of tests ago, his star was very much on the wane. Yes, his throwing needs some real work but, in truth, he is no worse in that department than any of the other options including Latu. The bigger issue is his habit of cannonballing into tackles and rucks. But this should also be the most fixable of his issues. The real gap here is in the row and at 6. And I think there are some really important decisions to be made.

I started doing a critique of each of the aspirants, but this post started turning into War & Peace so, instead, I’ll focus on a view on 3.

- Arnold is probably the best placed to provide what we need at present. I’ve noted before that I personally don’t feel he has taken his A game to test level, but his A game fits the almost exact bill. Massive unit, even by lock standards, good mobility, good lineout operator, good maul defender. Doesn’t have the greatest hands but they aren’t terrible either. I’ll be very interested how he goes on the European tour
- I haven’t seen Skelton play for years, so I’m leaning heavenly on what I read here but the things I know are that he is big, powerful and has great hands. I’ve also read his fitness has improved a mile and his work rate around the field is excellent. I’ve read he does get used as a lineout target - but in a statistical piece done by Nic Bishop that stats show that this is still a rarity (averaging less than 1 per game). I have real concerns how this works work in the current Wallabies set up. As a minimum it would make Swinton almost essential at 6 (or possibly someone like Hanigan who would need to be charged to spend the game securing break down ball).

The guy I would really like to see kick on is Salakai-Loto. No doubt my Reds bias kicks in here and I will say up front that potential wins nothing. At present I would have Salakai-Loto, when available, in a line at the front of the domestic queue of locks but not by any significant margin. He is a good blend of physicality and athleticism. Has good hands and appears strong in the scrums, decent in the lineout (although not great) and a reasonable maul defender. What he isn’t (yet - hopefully) is the player I thought he was going to be. When I first saw him as a 20 year old I was hopeful he would develop like Itoje & PSDT have. A genuine world class game changer. Of our current locks he is the only one that I think could still get there. He is only young, but he also old enough that we should be expecting him to really kick on now. It’s not great to pin too many hopes on one player but he really does have potential that I don’t see in any of the other options to be the best of all worlds. But yes - the word there is potential.

So the sum total of all of this is that I am really happy with how the Wallabies are tracking but to take the next step we need a further evolution where not only are we athletic and attacking but also more physical imposing. I don’t see the development of Salakai-Loto as essential but I do see the opportunity for him to be a game changer.

Two last notes -
- I am aware that a big part of the Boks heating the ABs was the use of their kicking game. That is just not a path we are going to head down (and nor would I want to) so our quick paced attack needs to keep improving to create pressure in a different manner.
- whatever the Wallabies achieve over the spring tour there is going to remain a big question mark until we play the ABs again, and rightly so. Nonetheless this period is an absolute gift for Rennie to really progress the squad, broaden their experience and exposure and continue to build. A lot of these guys are going to be tested by conditions and game style that they aren’t used to. I don’t expect every game to be pretty, but I am looking forward to the ride. Bring on the tour.

All I need to know was Skelton voted top 14 player of the year (I hope I understood that correct) and if that is correct it is all I need to know for Skelton to join the wallabies

 

[Dctarget]

All I need to know was Skelton voted top 14 player of the year (I hope I understood that correct) and if that is correct it is all I need to know for Skelton to join the wallabies

Dupont did actually but Skelton was one of two other people nominated. But he essentially carried La Rochelle 99% of the way to a top 14 championship.

 

[TSR]

Fair enough DCTarget.

I’ll definitely concede LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) hasn’t grabbed the jersey and made it his own. But I’m just personally not sure why he would be below the three first ones at least (and I still struggle to see how Skelton would fit in the balance of the current pack with a complete change in the backrow).

I think all of Philip, Rodda & Swain are doing some great things, but all three are more limited.

Philip is a workhorse, but very one dimensional. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not like he smashes teams apart either. He’s struggling in the lineout. I’ll admit I think he is a bit overrated because he is the style of player people love to watch, but I don’t think he’s actually that effective. I’m sure he’d run into a wall of Rennie told him too. Probably 20 times. But at the end of the day all you end up with a guy with 20 brave carries and a wall that’s still intact.

Rodda is a great line out operator and has a great work rate. He was previously a prolific carrier, but his current role is far more about securing the break down. Neither as dynamic in attack or strong in defence as Salakai-Loto. IMO he will be one of our locks unless Swain pushes him out, and will be the foil to Arnold/Philip/LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto)/Skelton

Swain - I think competes with Rodda. I know they started together on Saturday, but I don’t see him as a heavy carrying lock. Salakai-Loto is more athletic and dynamic. Definitely a young, angry man on the rise though which is great to see.

Arnold - the most likely threat and definitely in front of Salakai-Loto at present. Doesn’t have Salakai-Lotos athleticism but is a better line out operator and is bringing more to the table through sheer size and physicality. In simple terms he is delivering, whereas Salakai-Loto is not delivering to the level that I think (hope) he eventually will.

Skelton - the most punishing of all of our locks, but I wonder if the emergence of Valetini creates an issue for his involvement. I’m happy to reserve judgement untill I see him on the European tour

I read this enough to know a lot of others here don’t rate LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) like I do. No question that there is currently a gap between how he is playing and how I am suggesting he could be playing. But, for what it’s worth I would definitely take him ahead of Philip & Swain.

 

[TSR]

All I need to know was Skelton voted top 14 player of the year (I hope I understood that correct) and if that is correct it is all I need to know for Skelton to join the wallabies

Fair enough. Very hard for me to argue with that. What does the rest of your pack look like?

 

[Drew]

LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) seems to lack fire and motivation in some games. Like he needs something to anger him to fire up. I’d like to see him perform consistently with the dynamism and aggression he is capable of because when he carrys strongly or chops someone in two it is good

 

[Dctarget]

Fair enough DCTarget.

I’ll definitely concede LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) hasn’t grabbed the jersey and made it his own. But I’m just personally not sure why he would be below the three first ones at least (and I still struggle to see how Skelton would fit in the balance of the current pack with a complete change in the backrow).

I think all of Philip, Rodda & Swain are doing some great things, but all three are more limited.

Philip is a workhorse, but very one dimensional. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not like he smashes teams apart either. He’s struggling in the lineout. I’ll admit I think he is a bit overrated because he is the style of player people love to watch, but I don’t think he’s actually that effective. I’m sure he’d run into a wall of Rennie told him too. Probably 20 times. But at the end of the day all you end up with a guy with 20 brave carries and a wall that’s still intact.

Rodda is a great line out operator and has a great work rate. He was previously a prolific carrier, but his current role is far more about securing the break down. Neither as dynamic in attack or strong in defence as Salakai-Loto. IMO he will be one of our locks unless Swain pushes him out, and will be the foil to Arnold/Philip/LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto)/Skelton

Swain - I think competes with Rodda. I know they started together on Saturday, but I don’t see him as a heavy carrying lock. Salakai-Loto is more athletic and dynamic. Definitely a young, angry man on the rise though which is great to see.

Arnold - the most likely threat and definitely in front of Salakai-Loto at present. Doesn’t have Salakai-Lotos athleticism but is a better line out operator and is bringing more to the table through sheer size and physicality. In simple terms he is delivering, whereas Salakai-Loto is not delivering to the level that I think (hope) he eventually will.

Skelton - the most punishing of all of our locks, but I wonder if the emergence of Valetini creates an issue for his involvement. I’m happy to reserve judgement untill I see him on the European tour

I read this enough to know a lot of others here don’t rate LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) like I do. No question that there is currently a gap between how he is playing and how I am suggesting he could be playing. But, for what it’s worth I would definitely take him ahead of Philip & Swain.

I wouldn’t be upset or surprised if he starts, I think he’s a great player. We just have quite good locks at the moment. I’d love for him to cement himself as a starter. I wonder if Leota is compering for his position as hybrid, Leota seems a lot more robust and heavier.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Dupont did actually but Skelton was one of two other people nominated. But he essentially carried La Rochelle 99% of the way to a top 14 championship.

Thanks mate - top 3 good enough for me - as I say lock him in.