Wallabies Tri Nations

[waratahjesus]

With O'Connor you have three defensive liabilities...

These players have a bright future but they aren't all necessary for our success leading into the RWC sans Cooper at flyhalf...

im going to say it now, Cooper is the problem in the aussie backline currently, if your going to pick a whole reds backline and watch us get thumped then he is fine, as they know not to do anything until he does, but in the wallaby camp he is surrounded by people who have creative instinct in gits and co and its not working.

the guy had a great super 14, but i she actually the messiah of international play? i still think the gits/barnes swaparound is our best midfield combo in big games.

 

[Spewn]

Perhaps looking long term, but I think Kurtley needs a bit more time in the Sydney club ranks. Use JOC (James O'Connor) off the bench for the 'X-Factor'. KB (Kurtley Beale) is just not up to it at this stage.

I think this sums up my position. I just don't think Beale will ever get it. I hope he does. He has to change his kick first way of playing. He didn't do it at school. Why has it crept in?

 

[Gagger]

What's the evidence for this apart from a situation where both players were covered and he put in a grubber that didn't work? I'd still put it down to a poor choice, but fark, everyone makes them. You wanna look at a tackle missing penalty magnet - have a look at Quade Cooper.

I'm not saying Cooper should go, quite the opposite. But the point is, if you want the x-factor good, you live with the rough; see David Campese. The anti-Beale's are largely the pro-Hynes; those that back a slow defensive winger turned into a full-back. Probably the right choice under the old ruck interps, but the world has moved on.

 

[RedsHappy]

What's the evidence for this apart from a situation where both players were covered and he put in a grubber that didn't work? I'd still put it down to a poor choice, but fark, everyone makes them. You wanna look at a tackle missing penalty magnet - have a look at Quade Cooper.

I'm not saying Cooper should go, quite the opposite. But the point is, if you want the x-factor good, you live with the rough; see David Campese. The anti-Beale's are largely the pro-Hynes; those that back a slow defensive winger turned into a full-back. Probably the right choice under the old ruck interps, but the world has moved on.

Gagger, I tend to agree - at the end of the day, the key thing is what is the reward-to-risk ratio for a particular player against a particular opposition for a particular game plan? Cooper and Beale have risks all right, but what is the reward they can generate? Other players' risk likelihood may be lower, but is the reward upside there when you need it? Aus will have to take bundles of calculated risks (esp in attack) in this 3N to have any hope - game strategies driven principally by defensive containment will absolutely fail against these opponents IMO.

I guess the other relevant dimension is this: how well is the Wallaby training infrastructure over time improving the consistent defensive capabilities of these otherwise very talented players who need this improvement? It's remarkable to me that Mitchell, having played in Tests over 5 years now, still has serious defensive lapses (Sydney). Is this a random lapse, or have we not helped the player's core skills development adequately over such a long playing period?

 

[RedsHappy]

matty_k. Yes. The ABs game plan last night had some notable similarities to that used by the Reds v Bulls. And some similar impacts: Bulls forwards tired badly as Reds held so much possession, Bulls defence started to crack in second half, lots of dynamic wide play by Reds wasn't matched by Bulls backs, etc. The Reds game plan was both right and just as importantly, was executed right.

Some further comparisons between S14 Reds v Bulls game plan and ABs v Boks on Saturday:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ss-up-springboks/story-e6frg7mf-1225890478401

 

[Richo]

Use JOC (James O'Connor) off the bench for the 'X-Factor'. KB (Kurtley Beale) is just not up to it at this stage.

And JOC (James O'Connor) is? I'm a JOC (James O'Connor) fan, but his judgment and defensive lapses are no worse than Kurtley's. Everyone points to the Beale grubber, which was definitely a major brain explosion, but JOC (James O'Connor) was eviscerated in the Tri Nations last year and wasn't much chop in June. He seems to make a lot of small bad decisions, like too much ballet stepping and go-it-alone plays at the wrong time.

 

[Scotty]

im going to say it now, Cooper is the problem in the aussie backline currently, if your going to pick a whole reds backline and watch us get thumped then he is fine, as they know not to do anything until he does, but in the wallaby camp he is surrounded by people who have creative instinct in gits and co and its not working.

the guy had a great super 14, but i she actually the messiah of international play? i still think the gits/barnes swaparound is our best midfield combo in big games.

Maybe they still are our best combination in big games, but IMO they have a limited potential. Barnes is solid, great defense and reasonable game control. Giteau has the odd flash of brilliance but is out of form. Cooper is the only one with the potential to be worlds best. He might not ever get there, but it is worth seeing if he can.

 

[Scotty]

I'm not saying Cooper should go, quite the opposite. But the point is, if you want the x-factor good, you live with the rough; see David Campese. The anti-Beale's are largely the pro-Hynes; those that back a slow defensive winger turned into a full-back. Probably the right choice under the old ruck interps, but the world has moved on.

I would have thought that Hynes was faster than Beale? I know that Hynes is a better defender than Beale, and also better under the high ball. I am also pretty confident that Hynes is stronger in contact and is a more elusive runner. There are a several reasons why Hynes (if fit) should be selected ahead of Beale at fullback, and not many reasons why Beale should be selected first.

Lets give Beale a whole season as Tahs fullback next year before considering him to start in a 3N match. I hope he proves to be a viable Wallaby fullback option, but he isn't quite there yet.

However I also disagree with your contention that we need a ball playing fullback under the new interpretations. (You can't tell me you think that a Latham wouldn't still go better than a Beale just because the interps). I think the type of fullback we need depends on who we have as flyhalf. If it is Barnes then it would help to have a creative player outside him. With Cooper you are probably better with a big ball runner (eg AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)).

 

[ACT Crusader]

I would have thought that Hynes was faster than Beale? I know that Hynes is a better defender than Beale, and also better under the high ball. I am also pretty confident that Hynes is stronger in contact and is a more elusive runner. There are a several reasons why Hynes (if fit) should be selected ahead of Beale at fullback, and not many reasons why Beale should be selected first.

Lets give Beale a whole season as Tahs fullback next year before considering him to start in a 3N match. I hope he proves to be a viable Wallaby fullback option, but he isn't quite there yet.

However I also disagree with your contention that we need a ball playing fullback under the new interpretations. (You can't tell me you think that a Latham wouldn't still go better than a Beale just because the interps). I think the type of fullback we need depends on who we have as flyhalf. If it is Barnes then it would help to have a creative player outside him. With Cooper you are probably better with a big ball runner (eg AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)).

From what I've seen of both, I think Beale has far better quickness off the mark. Over 50m Hynes would be quicker though and probably better in counter attack situations. Beale has very quick feet IMO and can react better with the defensive line rushing at him. That's why he's probably better closer in than in the back 3.

 

[RedsHappy]

Maybe they still are our best combination in big games, but IMO they have a limited potential. Barnes is solid, great defense and reasonable game control. Giteau has the odd flash of brilliance but is out of form. Cooper is the only one with the potential to be worlds best. He might not ever get there, but it is worth seeing if he can.

A question: how many of our tries in the June Tests can be credited directly to Cooper, and how many to Giteau?

But the bigger issue is surely this: if by the Ireland Test, we were still getting 'Cooper is confusing us' problems in the Oz back line, and that's after about 4 weeks and 3 prior Tests those backs have been together, what on earth is going on wrt the intensity of back line training, game prep and coaching? Cooper's 'flair and dare' playing style is well know. If he's picked as 10, then it's the task of the whole back line and the coaches to work relentlessly in training to perfect the his relationship with the other backs (and vice versa) and to build attacking and running ploys that build off Cooper's skills but which equally are thoroughly rehearsed over and over again so they are instinctive at game time.

Do we think the ABs brilliant back line awareness, excellent combinations and very low error rate (esp when it counted) on Saturday just came because they are all talented? Yes, talent, but meticulous training and repetitive rehearsal and sound back line coaching are huge parts of it all.

My main point here is that if it's argued 'Cooper is our problem', IMO that's really a case of poor back line training, preparation and coaching being our bigger problem, or maybe the problem.

 

[Reddy!]

I don't really mind who is picked, I'm more concerned about the way we actually play.

 

[DPK]

My main point here is that if it's argued 'Cooper is our problem', IMO that's really a case of poor back line training, preparation and coaching being our bigger problem, or maybe the problem.

So if Cooper is the problem, then Cooper isn't the problem.

 

[Scotty]

Comments like Ashley Coopers regarding not knowing what Cooper is doing I find very strange. I don't recall any of these same comments coming from the other Reds backs at the start of the season, and it doesn't appear like there was any issue with their backline gelling pretty quickly.

I have a feeling it is more of a mental adjustment thing. The outside backs particularly should be running hard into gaps and to an extent shouldn't really be worrying too much about what Cooper is doing. Sure, if he chip or cross kicks out of the blue then it is difficult to adjust to, but in running plays they need to run to the space and assume that Cooper can get the ball to them. This is what Ioane, Fa'ainga and Chambers were doing and it worked well for them. I can't see why Horne, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Mitchell can't do the same thing quite easily. Giteau is another matter - I'm not convinced he can adjust after 2-3 years of crabbing.

 

[Scotty]

PS Anyone know if wallabies are being released for club duty this weekend? I'm off to GPS vs Sunnybank.

 

[fatprop]

Cooper isn't the problem, the pigs are the problem. The ABs showed what happens when pigs hit the ball at pace with someone on their hip driving.

Just watch us trying to bend the line one running one out from a standing start.

One of the things I did notice with Horne was how many times he would run his line and the ball went elsewhere, I don't know if that was because had Tindall and BOD to run at (ie the game plan) or that he has a communicable disease

 

[RugbyReg]

Scotty I would hope so. Genia wants to play club footy.

GPS don't have anyone (don't think Hynes will play), but the Bank are worth watching regardless. It'd only be Simmons wouldn't it?

 

[Spewn]

Put Beale in and watch us lose our few remaining trophies, you can't have two massive defensive liabilities in one team, both of which are quite prone to brain farts.

Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) all suffer from cerebral flatulence. The point is that Cooper's condition is not serious and he will become constipated in time, JOC (James O'Connor)'s is treatable, but Beale's will never get better. That grubber was a sign of flatal incontinence of the brain.

 

[Groucho]

Beale is still young. This year he is much fitter and bigger and has been very good in contact in the S14, unlike last year when he was rag dolled a bit.
He does have that rare vision and he will come into it's own some time in the near future at test level.

edit- In fact the next golden era of Wallaby backline play will probably see Genia, Cooper, JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale all starting with a sprinkling of our latest U-20s stars filling the remaining places.

It's refreshing to read a post about our young brigade in which the only 'good' ones aren't just the ones from the poster's S14 team, and the rest aren't 'average' or a 'liability' or should never be considered for the Wallabies again.

 

[#1 Tah]

Whats This? I can see the future!


Team-----------W----L-----BP----Pts
All Blacks-------5----1------3-----24
Springboks------3----3------3----18
Wallabies--------1----5-----4------8

 

[cyclopath]

Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) all suffer from cerebral flatulence. The point is that Cooper's condition is not serious and he will become constipated in time, JOC (James O'Connor)'s is treatable, but Beale's will never get better. That grubber was a sign of flatal incontinence of the brain.

Was this a Freudian Fart, I mean slip? Or just clever wordplay? In any event, I would love to know how you arrived at your prognosis for all three, i.e. who will / can get better and who cannot.