Wallabies Squad - the Link Era

[RedsHappy]

I know this is heretical, but the coach can't do much if other teams simply have better players than us. Rather than be a last throw of the dice, a new coach is an opportunity to build, to move closer to the position where we have the best players. It's never an instant process, but instead comes and goes in cycles. New Zealand generally have better players because they generally have better systems from the grass roots upwards. Fans hate that idea though. They think that if we're not currently the best then it must be because someone visible is doing something wrong and must be sacked, upon which we'll re-assume our rightful role as the number one team.

This 'fatalistic' theorem re Kiwi dominance and, related, our immovably lowered chances of doing as well in elite rugby is flawed - though it's always had adherents here and no doubt always will, particularly in times, as now, of mediocrity and bad losses via the Wallabies' performances.

Let me offer one of many possible counters: if Australia was intrinsically poorer in rugby players, and coaching's role was solely one of marginal potential improvements only as we suffered fatalistically from the inferiority of our input stocks into the elite game level, the following would not be true:

From late 2009 in the case of the Reds, and from late 2011 in the case of Brumbies, two groups of allegedly 'no hoper' elite Australian rugby squads that had prior suffered appalling seasons of losses and fan disillusionment were within the short space of 18-24 months transformed into S15 winning or Finalist calibre teams. This was/is essentially down to coaching competencies much upgraded. And not just head coaches; as important were the Fishers, the McKays, the Fowlers, the Larkhams, and related S&C specialists. Cheika is showing the early, potential signs that he may achieve a massive improvement in the Tahs' chances of victory in 2014-15.

The truth is that excellence in sporting outcomes at the highest levels requires a combination of adequate talent and superb 'culture' management and technical coaching within elite playing squads.

Look carefully and you will find that the bigger problem in Australian rugby is not the quasi-Darwinian notion that that we have less capacity to generate the better species of player by the age of say 18-20, but rather that our elite level managerial and coaching competencies in general have not been nearly good enough and accordingly the quite high calibre of players we have consistently generated are thrust into the hands of inferior business leaders and technical coaching specialists. It's our generally poor standards of leadership that are the heart of the matter. Once and when we fix that problem with the right people solutions, our players perform exceptionally well and hold their own against the very best.

 

[I like to watch]

If that is correct,why don't the superior coaches win every year?
Obviously good coaching can dramatically improve a team.
But they can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Bowside]

Back to the squad.

I was interested to read the Crawford and Godwin would have been selected if fit.

Godwin has come on leaps and bounds since his days in the U20s. I think he has the attributes to be successful as a dynamic, modern 12 in the style of JdV and Sonny Bill.

 

[RedsHappy]

If that is correct,why don't the superior coaches win every year?
Obviously good coaching can dramatically improve a team.
But they can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Needless to say, your first sentence above is not in any way axiomatic from what I argued.

Of course it's not as simple as 'thus superior coaches can win every year' - where on earth did I even infer that?

Despite their alleged deep advantages in terms of superior player stocks, this year NZ had three S15 teams that turned in anywhere from awful to merely just-adequate season's performances and thus did not make the top 6.

After many disappointing years of not quite making it, the NZRU changed the Blues coaches from late 2012 and Sir JK is making strides anew with that team. And when the NZRU decided the Chiefs coaches were not achieving enough with that team, Dave Rennie and Wayne Smith came in and they're remarkably quickly S15 finalists and winners.

Why does the NZRU do this? It's because they know what we've come to know: fine elite rugby coaches can quickly transform teams made up of players that hitherto have looked generally uninspiring, and/or they astutely know what players to drop and what new ones to add to the mix. And they can dramatically accelerate the performance quality of individual players under their guidance - Jake White at the Brumbies is a stunning example of this latter truth.

Sadly, a poor national coach as was Deans can spend 6 years coaching a team and leaves it barely improved in terms of performance outcomes and individual skills from where he began all that time ago.

 

[lewisr]

I'm going to bet on the fact that Cooper will defend 80% of the time in the front line in TRC because his tackling is really no better or worse than most 5/8ths in the comp. If anything, defending in the front line is better because he'll have support around him and won't have to make clutch defensive reads that are often required after a break has been made.

He'll drop back when the opposition is going to clear (as we have seen with all 10s this year including To'omua and JOC (James O'Connor) at the wobs) and that would be to have some counter attacking fun with izzy and mogg.

For the record, coaching makes a massive difference to how a team performs. Albeit somewhat distant from S15 and National level, schoolboy rugby is a great example of this. QLD GPS has been revolutionised by semi-professional coaching and it has been shown that you can import all the players you want but at the end of the day, the coaching will prove the difference.

 

[masai]

Look carefully and you will find that the bigger problem in Australian rugby is not the quasi-Darwinian notion that that we have less capacity to generate the better species of player by the age of say 18-20, but rather that our elite level managerial and coaching competencies in general have not been nearly good enough and accordingly the quite high calibre of players we have consistently generated are thrust into the hands of inferior business leaders and technical coaching specialists. It's our generally poor standards of leadership that are the heart of the matter. Once and when we fix that problem with the right people solutions, our players perform exceptionally well and hold their own against the very best.

As an armchair supporter, I can't claim to be connected enough to the Australian rugby elite to pass judgement on their individual qualities as developers of rugby talent. What I can say is that the results of Australian teams of varying age groups in international competition aren't entirely in agreement with what you're saying.

You make passing reference to the talent level of young Aussie players aged 18-20, but so much development occurs during these years that it makes no sense to talk of them as a single unit. In fact, I would contend that it is precisely what happens between these years that is the main failing of the Australian rugby system. I watch a fair bit of schoolboy rugby and the talent coming through just 18 GPS schools in NSW and QLD is astonishing. This is reflected in how successful we've been at schoolboy level against New Zealand in recent years.

Australian rugby's problem is player retention and stagnation between schoolboy level and U20s. After leaving school, most boys are forced to either pursue a professional rugby league career or train for 6 hours a week in Sydney/Brisbane colts. Then we send them off to the IRB Junior Championships and act surprised when they finish behind all four home nations.

The way I see a Super or Wallaby coach's job these days is the unenviable task of reversing many years of irreparable damage to a player's development. If you ask me, it's a marvel that they've been able to develop the players for a Wallaby team that has managed to cement the 3rd spot in the IRB rankings in the years after professionalism.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Folau is a great athlete and potentially a great rugby player - no different to SBW.

It also makes great commercial sense to keep the bloke.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Guys - where do you find how many Wallaby caps each player has got from the beginning of time ???

 

[emuarse]

If that is correct,why don't the superior coaches win every year?
Obviously good coaching can dramatically improve a team.
But they can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Possibly because there are times when that superior coach's team plays against another team, who's superior coach has worked out your superior coach's tactical weaknesses, and capitalised on that.

That is where Ewen McKenzie may have the wood on Steve Hansen.

Ah for something simple, like a game of chess.

 

[Hardtackle]

Reasonable post.

But I still say time was up on Deans at the end of 2011 after four years.

There's no "right" to stay in the job. A body in the driver's seat can be paid out and sacked at any time the union wants it. Julia Gillard knows it well. As does John O'Neill.

That's the way it works and that's the way it will remain.

Somebody forgot to tell Mickey Arthur that.

 

[Braveheart81]

Guys - where do you find how many Wallaby caps each player has got from the beginning of time ???

Searching for an individual player on espnscrum (or search google with the player name and espnscrum) and you'll find an accurate number of caps.

Any wikipedia lists are prone to errors.

 

[Scoey]

Any wikipedia lists are prone to errors.

You shut your mouth!

 

[Ash]

The ARU page used to have a great section in their homepage with every capped Wallaby in there. <edit> of course, including some stats like caps, points, etc.

Unfortunately, they removed it for reasons unknown.

 

[Dave Beat]

As an armchair supporter, I can't claim to be connected enough to the Australian rugby elite to pass judgement on their individual qualities as developers of rugby talent. What I can say is that the results of Australian teams of varying age groups in international competition aren't entirely in agreement with what you're saying.

You make passing reference to the talent level of young Aussie players aged 18-20, but so much development occurs during these years that it makes no sense to talk of them as a single unit. In fact, I would contend that it is precisely what happens between these years that is the main failing of the Australian rugby system. I watch a fair bit of schoolboy rugby and the talent coming through just 18 GPS schools in NSW and QLD is astonishing. This is reflected in how successful we've been at schoolboy level against New Zealand in recent years.

Australian rugby's problem is player retention and stagnation between schoolboy level and U20s. After leaving school, most boys are forced to either pursue a professional rugby league career or train for 6 hours a week in Sydney/Brisbane colts. Then we send them off to the IRB Junior Championships and act surprised when they finish behind all four home nations.

The way I see a Super or Wallaby coach's job these days is the unenviable task of reversing many years of irreparable damage to a player's development. If you ask me, it's a marvel that they've been able to develop the players for a Wallaby team that has managed to cement the 3rd spot in the IRB rankings in the years after professionalism.

True, True,

 

[Pfitzy]

Moses and I were discussing a stats site similar to stats.allblacks.com only more awesome (one of the conditions of my involvement... Or a consequence)

Where did that ever go?

-----------------------
I hate autocorrect ...

 

[Ignoto]

A Finger out - http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/t...m=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed#.UfiKdTf0GNd

So I'm guessing R Horne will be getting a call from Link?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Guys - where do you find how many Wallaby caps each player has got from the beginning of time ???

ESPN have a good database that is fairly accurate and current.

http://www.espnscrum.com/australia/rugby/player/caps.html?team=6

 

[Scrubber2050]

Thanks HJ

 

[Sully]

Moses and I were discussing a stats site similar to stats.allblacks.com only more awesome (one of the conditions of my involvement. Or a consequence)

Where did that ever go?

-----------------------
I hate autocorrect .

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/wiki/index/

 

[Gnostic]

As an armchair supporter, I can't claim to be connected enough to the Australian rugby elite to pass judgement on their individual qualities as developers of rugby talent. What I can say is that the results of Australian teams of varying age groups in international competition aren't entirely in agreement with what you're saying.

You make passing reference to the talent level of young Aussie players aged 18-20, but so much development occurs during these years that it makes no sense to talk of them as a single unit. In fact, I would contend that it is precisely what happens between these years that is the main failing of the Australian rugby system. I watch a fair bit of schoolboy rugby and the talent coming through just 18 GPS schools in NSW and QLD is astonishing. This is reflected in how successful we've been at schoolboy level against New Zealand in recent years.

Australian rugby's problem is player retention and stagnation between schoolboy level and U20s. After leaving school, most boys are forced to either pursue a professional rugby league career or train for 6 hours a week in Sydney/Brisbane colts. Then we send them off to the IRB Junior Championships and act surprised when they finish behind all four home nations.

The way I see a Super or Wallaby coach's job these days is the unenviable task of reversing many years of irreparable damage to a player's development. If you ask me, it's a marvel that they've been able to develop the players for a Wallaby team that has managed to cement the 3rd spot in the IRB rankings in the years after professionalism.

Masai you have to remember who was in charge of the coaching at that level and indeed who was the architect of the development system. So while you are correct that this does lead into the performance of the Senior sides and the ability of the senior level coaches to achieve results, the issue remains a coaching one that perhaps started at the youth levels and continued on after.

I will never accept that Australian Rugby doesn't have players as talented as other country's do, in fact it is one of the reasons I was so adamant that Deans had to go, because as I far as I am concerned he was squandering a generation of talent the like of which we hadn't seen in the backs since perhaps 1991 IMO. The same arguments were made with regard to Nucifora's position.