Wallabies front row

[topo]

RedsHappy: in response to your comments:

I think Noriega is probably OK. The amount of improvement in the scrum in a week is testament to that. The problem is that we are now suffering for years of front row neglect in the Eddie Jones era. As a result of that we have no decent 25-28 yo props. We actually do have a good number of young ones coming through with Daley, Slipper, Weeks, Tilse, Kepu, Palmer,Jerry Yanuyanutawa and a couple more including the current U20s players and they are getting some good coaching from guys like Mark Bell, Foley and Ben Darwin. Foley, in particular, is an excellent scrum coach. I think Australia will be well served for props in 2-3 years. For the next RWC we just have to hope Fatcat and BA can stay fit.

 

[Scarfman]

Plus Alec Evans is still helping QLD.

 

[saulih]

I can't help thinking that our lack of "near ready" talent pool is a result of not having another level of rugby competition at the national level. A league that takes players to a week in week out grind at a level closer to S14/15 is missing in our Australia, but not in NZ, SA, or the European countries. While it will not ready them for test rugby, it should shorten the learning curve to get there when we need them.

 

[David]

I hope Foley comes to Qld he really did wonders for the Wallabies and from what I remember the Reds were his first choice over the Tahs.

 

[RedsHappy]

RedsHappy: in response to your comments:

I think Noriega is probably OK. The amount of improvement in the scrum in a week is testament to that. The problem is that we are now suffering for years of front row neglect in the Eddie Jones era. As a result of that we have no decent 25-28 yo props. We actually do have a good number of young ones coming through with Daley, Slipper, Weeks, Tilse, Kepu, Palmer,Jerry Yanuyanutawa and a couple more including the current U20s players and they are getting some good coaching from guys like Mark Bell, Foley and Ben Darwin. Foley, in particular, is an excellent scrum coach. I think Australia will be well served for props in 2-3 years. For the next RWC we just have to hope Fatcat and BA can stay fit.

Thanks topo, much appreciate your feedback and data.

I have no doubt as you say there have been 'years of neglect' of both props and our forwards capabilities in general. I guess I just believe it's not only been in the Jones era. IMO the BaasBaas games vividly showed the limited depth (and its consequences) we have in total elite forwards stocks. The so-called 'injury crisis' just exposed it all. Having to rely on players like Dean Mumm and Richard Brown says a lot. The loose ball consistency and breakdown intensity of our forwards last Saturday was simply second-rate I thought. The scrum may have improved from Perth, but the game score still hung on those later scrum penalties. Yet more acid on the Oz fans' pride, and another reason i think that relying just on rookies in the front row in a major Test is irresponsibly reckless.

IMO in the modern global game we cannot just rely on 'a few lucky years when the talent wave was/is good'. The ARU/top coaches have to develop deeper, systematic programs to ensure we have an optimal flow of top tier talent say 3 years out of 5, not the 1 year out of 5 (or more) that we seem to expect and, much worse, accept today in Australian rugby as 'just the way it is'.

But it's great that you have identified a good bunch of younger guys coming through, and competent coaching ranks. Note you assess Noriega as OK, and I know what you mean, but I would hope we are aiming the world's best scrum and forwards coaches, not just 'a good average'. How else will we get back to the very top rank?

I have said elsewhere that I thought RD made a serious misjudgement in letting Foley go to the Tahs (in terms of a major loss to the Wallabies), but a poster here later noted that Foley wanted less travel. I just hope that was Foley's real reason for wanting out at the end of '08.

Final note: gee, what a superb performance those U20 NZ forwards put on this morning. Like it or not, they put on a forwards masterclass. Great that we got to the Final, but it looks like NZ will have 'state of the art' forwards stocks coming through to the ABs from say 2012 +.

 

[fatprop]

RedsHappy: in response to your comments:

I think Noriega is probably OK. The amount of improvement in the scrum in a week is testament to that. The problem is that we are now suffering for years of front row neglect in the Eddie Jones era. As a result of that we have no decent 25-28 yo props. We actually do have a good number of young ones coming through with Daley, Slipper, Weeks, Tilse, Kepu, Palmer,Jerry Yanuyanutawa and a couple more including the current U20s players and they are getting some good coaching from guys like Mark Bell, Foley and Ben Darwin. Foley, in particular, is an excellent scrum coach. I think Australia will be well served for props in 2-3 years. For the next RWC we just have to hope Fatcat and BA can stay fit.

So they would be

Dunning
Baxter
Sheperdson
Holmes
Henderson
Fairbrother

(some that bit older)

 

[MrMouse]

RH When I was coming through there was talk that they were establishing an elite 'scrum school' for 15-18yo, which is basically exactly what we're talking about here. Like most brilliant ideas, it required funding, so they cut it...

I would hope we are aiming the world's best scrum and forwards coaches, not just 'a good average'. How else will we get back to the very top rank?

A few of us here on the boards have agreed that it would be great to have a forward (and back for that matter!) coaching pow-wow, operating in a consultative manner over all things forward. Foley for the scrums, Ross Lyons for lineouts etc etc, but that requires moving away from state-based knowledge hoarding, working for the greater good, and so on. The concept would also work with bringing in foreign consultants for 3-4 week stints. It keeps the learning environment fresh and you acquire ideas from all over.

Do you have any idea where/how we can see the U20 final?

 

[RedsHappy]

RH When I was coming through there was talk that they were establishing an elite 'scrum school' for 15-18yo, which is basically exactly what we're talking about here. Like most brilliant ideas, it required funding, so they cut it...
A few of us here on the boards have agreed that it would be great to have a forward (and back for that matter!) coaching pow-wow, operating in a consultative manner over all things forward. Foley for the scrums, Ross Lyons for lineouts etc etc, but that requires moving away from state-based knowledge hoarding, working for the greater good, and so on. The concept would also work with bringing in foreign consultants for 3-4 week stints. It keeps the learning environment fresh and you acquire ideas from all over.

Do you have any idea where/how we can see the U20 final?

Thanks MrMouse. Yes, yes and not sure (re U20 final, but try and find a recording on www.irb.com...in fact there is one there, just seen it).

I totally agree re the need for the type of 'bulked up, all States coaching skills together, plus foreign coaching input' enhanced forwards coaching capability in Australia. You may have seen elsewhere that I loosely scoped out some ideas for an Australian Forwards Academy, that would aim to do just this, and much more. Included in that was the idea that players from U16 and up would, upon selection, be welcomed to it. We need this, or something like it, to regain our slot in the very top league.

If we are comfortable as a rugby nation to drop down in the coming years to being happy with 'we're ahead of or on par with (say) Wales and France in the rankings, and we're OK with that', then these ideas are probably not required.

But, for me, I want us to be back as world no 1 or 2 for at least 3 years straight from 2012 on (I would love to say we could do it well before 2012, but in the last weeks I have renegotiated that goal with myself ;-) ). Why? To some extent it's like a business: if you stop growing, developing, aspiring, wanting to be on top and the very best, you start dying and soon will self-fulfill your own marginality.

Then there's the completely irrational part: when I grew up and played the game, somehow the Wallabies doing well was associated (amongst other things!) with our country's pride in itself. I always liked that, it gave me happiness and a good feeling....at least the idea of it still does.

 

[Hawko]

RH When I was coming through there was talk that they were establishing an elite 'scrum school' for 15-18yo, which is basically exactly what we're talking about here.
Do you have any idea where/how we can see the U20 final?

Not sure you'd want to see it, for fans waiting for the Bledisloe to come back it was pretty depressing watching. It did prove the absolute necessity for a forward coaching academy if we want to get our standards up to the AB level.

 

[RedsHappy]

Not sure you'd want to see it, for fans waiting for the Bledisloe to come back it was pretty depressing watching. It did prove the absolute necessity for a forward coaching academy if we want to get our standards up to the AB level.

Yes, Hawko, so right. I was blown away to see U20 forwards play that superbly over 80. Unfortunately, the men in black. This is no downer on our guys, they held up and we can be proud of them getting to their first U20 Final. It was Rolls Royce vs BMW though.

 

[gone]

Anybody watching the scrummaging lesson England are currently giving the NZ Maori? The Maori scrum looks worse than the Wallabies...

 

[daz]

If the Poms go on and win this, (looking quite likely right now), can you imagine the boasting between now and 2011? Wins in both Oz and NZ. MJ might walk home to a knighthood and a job for life....instead of tar and feathers as we all hoped and expected.

 

[TOCC]

like ive been saying, i think everyone has over reacted about the scrum, as displayed in the irish game it is a improving entity, sure its not going to be the worlds best in the next couple of months, but they will be more then worthy test players by seasons end, which factored in with the return of Robinson and Alexander, as well as the potential recall of players like Baxter leaves Australia in a pretty healthy position come 2011.

 

[cyclopath]

I'll put my hand up as a doubter - and I still am to a point. Sure they went better against Ireland, but that Irish pack is hardly scary, so is not much of a benchmark. I am happy to see the improvement, but suspect we will still be fragile and very much at the mercy of injuries over the next year and a bit. But experience, as you say, is priceless so that's a positive.
I was well pleased to see them at least get the job done last night.

 

[fatprop]

I'll put my hand up as a doubter - and I still am to a point. Sure they went better against Ireland, but that Irish pack is hardly scary, so is not much of a benchmark. I am happy to see the improvement, but suspect we will still be fragile and very much at the mercy of injuries over the next year and a bit. But experience, as you say, is priceless so that's a positive.
I was well pleased to see them at least get the job done last night.

I still am a doubter, Ireland was crap. Face it Tom Court was on the field. We will be owned if that front row plays in the Tri Nations