Wallabies front row

[TOCC]

.
What disturbs me more is the lack of application and urgency from many. What amount of shaming do these guys need to man the fuck up?

as a former prop myself i can assure its not that simple, there is a little bit more to the whole dark art of scrummaging then just drinking a 'glass of cement' as some would like to believe.
Ben Robinson and Ben Alexander reveived there fair share of manshaming even as late as last year, the beautiful thing about scrummaging is that you learn more from a loss then you do from a win. One thing is definet, which is they are technically inferior to other international props, this is a experience factor, however are they physically inferior or mentally inferior, I dont think so.

Am i saying things are perfect? No, im just saying some of you are portraying the attitude of a emo teenager on facebook rather then mature men having a discussion.

 

[Blue]

i think everyone is still been a little melodramatic, the scrum was a vast improvement on last week, they did carry the stigma of last week and therefore proably lost the majority of the 50-50 calls, however they still performed a lot better.

Disagree. The first scum was good. It was downhill from there. It got a little bit better the two times the big Pom no 3 went to the bloodbin but when he came on it was a mullering all over again.

There seemed to be less scrums, but from where I was sitting it was another long night at the office.

The irony of the England win was that the scrum actually didn't have as much of an influence as expected.

 

[Blue]

Robinson and Moore will be back for the Tri Nations, the scrum improved but were still rubbish. None of them deserve more than a ten minutes cameos in test rugby.

You didn't think Slipper looks promising? Better than the other two for my money.

 

[fatprop]

You didn't think Slipper looks promising? Better than the other two for my money.

Being promising compared to this lot is not what I consider Wallaby material. He may be in the future Wallaby material but not today.

 

[cyclopath]

as a former prop myself i can assure its not that simple, there is a little bit more to the whole dark art of scrummaging then just drinking a 'glass of cement' as some would like to believe.
Ben Robinson and Ben Alexander reveived there fair share of manshaming even as late as last year, the beautiful thing about scrummaging is that you learn more from a loss then you do from a win. One thing is definet, which is they are technically inferior to other international props, this is a experience factor, however are they physically inferior or mentally inferior, I dont think so.

Am i saying things are perfect? No, im just saying some of you are portraying the attitude of a emo teenager on facebook rather then mature men having a discussion.

My comments about urgency were directed at the pack in general, not the front row specifically - I can see the misinterpretation given the thread subject. I was just continuing a general comment - my fault.

 

[en_force_er]

dear diary, mood... apathetic.

 

[TOCC]

said trite wasnt directed at you cyclopath, i just get sick of reading continually negative comments about things which arent always necessarily that bad

 

[cyclopath]

said trite wasnt directed at you cyclopath, i just get sick of reading continually negative comments about things which arent always necessarily that bad

Yeah, I realised I was over-reacting so pulled the reply. No harm.
As I said, I hope I'm wrong, and everything comes up roses, but I reckon it will be a painful 3N campaign - if we get any more significant injuries up front it might be pretty nasty.

 

[Scotty]

Me either.

And I thought learning on the job in the Super14 was on the nose.

Lee and Fatprop,

Do you honestly think that learning on the job doesn't happen game in game out, particularly for the front row forwards? Not one player is the finished product in their first international.

Regarding the Deans section of these young props - I'm not sure he had any choice. Afterall most on here thought that Ma'afu was the best we have left standing (apart from Baxter). That has been proven wrong already.

 

[Scotty]

I'd also like to note that we did similar things to the Bok scrum last year that England did to us in the last game, and that was with the Boks having an experienced pack. I bet the Bok supporter weren't all going around slashing their wrists like some on this forum appear to want to.

 

[cyclopath]

Scotty, a lot of the Bokke woes had to do with J Smit being played hopelessly out of position at THP. We got it over them a few times, but the reaming was not as consistent as that the Wallabies have copped. The rest of their forward play was a few steps better than Aus too, which doesn't hurt. We'll see...

 

[Blue]

I'd also like to note that we did similar things to the Bok scrum last year that England did to us in the last game, and that was with the Boks having an experienced pack. I bet the Bok supporter weren't all going around slashing their wrists like some on this forum appear to want to.

Codswallop.

The Wobs gave the Boks a good working over, no denying that. But what we witnessed the last two weeks was a total humiliaition.

There is a vast difference.

We didn't do the slashing thing becuase we knew it would be shortlived. We did bash our collective head against the wall a few times though. Seems the selectors heard it. Witness BJ Botha and CJ vd Linde back in SA with contracts and Os du Randt being brought in as scrum coach.

Australia's problem is that there is no experience whatsover behind Alexander and Fat Cat. The other guys simply cannot be expected to just handle it. It is very rare for a rookie props to come into international rugby and cope. The younger Franks brother, Ben and Benn, and the Beast are an exception to the rule. Its' a rarity to see a young gun just step in and handle it. It also helps if only one of the three is a rookie.

In a roundabout way this is a good thing, because it exposes the work that needs to be done in Australia inasfar as first rate test props are concerned. However unpleasant it may be. I'll put my money on Slipper to become a more regular feature in the future. Now if we didn't have this slew of injuries we may never have discovered that.

 

[MrMouse]

Yeah it's true, Blue. Had it not been for the extensive injuries and Deans' intransigence regarding Baxter, it's unlikely Slipper would have been anything more than an Aus A replacement. So, looking at positives, his "fast-tracking" is one.

Scotty, your own post belies the fact that Deans DID have a choice - Baxter. There are also other more experienced potplants puttering about (Holmes et al). I think, though, that the big issue is that some of these guys were fast-tracked into Super 14 sides with sub-standard scrummaging/poor technique, because of their prowess around the paddock or lack of other options, and then fast-tracked AGAIN into the Wallabies, neither of which should happen. Scrummaging is a prop's #1 responsibility, and whilst there will always be different balances in players, it's not cool that Australia has decided that learning on the job is ok, sacrificing clean ball (sometimes ball at all), morale, safety and the ability to disrupt the other team's possession.

 

[saulih]

I think the marginal to decent improvement of the scrum over the last week partly vindicates RD's decision to continue along the development path. It shows that he will continue with this front row, until they prove to be unable to get where they need to get to... or the first stringers come back.

Good luck to them... and in the meantime we have games and games of frustration ahead of us...

 

[fatprop]

Lee and Fatprop,

Do you honestly think that learning on the job doesn't happen game in game out, particularly for the front row forwards? Not one player is the finished product in their first international.

Regarding the Deans section of these young props - I'm not sure he had any choice. Afterall most on here thought that Ma'afu was the best we have left standing (apart from Baxter). That has been proven wrong already.

Scotty

Ben Franks was learning playing Test Rugby on Saturday, we were getting schooled. Deans had the option to go for some old heads and chose workrate over scrummaging.

 

[Scotty]

Codswallop.

The Wobs gave the Boks a good working over, no denying that. But what we witnessed the last two weeks was a total humiliaition.

There is a vast difference.

What we witnessed in the second game was a Wallaby scrum performance against England that was better than that of the Boks vs Australia in the 3N last year. I don't know the stats but there were several penalties awarded and quite a few tightheads won by the Wallabies in those games. I have no doubt that the Boks were concerned by the scrum performance, and part of their response was to try and point out illegalities in the Oz scrum. However, my point was that it is unlikely that the Bok supporters were as negative about the performance that Australian supporters on this site have been.

The scrum performed a lot better than I expected it to in the second game, enough so that particularly Daley and Slipper have shown the potential to be good international props.

 

[Scotty]

Can someone easily produce the scrum stats from the second game? I suspect they might be fairly even, although the referee did tend to give the English the benefit of the doubt when they did something sloppy (ordering a reset), but penalise us as soon as he thought we caused an issue.

 

[Blue]

What we witnessed in the second game was a Wallaby scrum performance against England that was better than that of the Boks vs Australia in the 3N last year. .

It was a bad performance, but from that statement I can see that it will be impossible to engage in any debate because you are quite frankly living in denial.

But if the Bok scrum of 2009 is going to make you feel better? By all means..

 

[RedsHappy]

....We didn't do the slashing thing becuase we knew it would be shortlived. We did bash our collective head against the wall a few times though. Seems the selectors heard it. Witness BJ Botha and CJ vd Linde back in SA with contracts and Os du Randt being brought in as scrum coach.

Australia's problem is that there is no experience whatsover behind Alexander and Fat Cat......

Thanks Blue, I like your style! (seriously).

The highlighted comment above is for me very important. I am not an expert on SA rugby, but I am struck at this fact that the Boks took decisive coaching-upgrade action when an important forwards problem was perceived. Here we tend to start long arguments that amount to deckchair-shuffling debates over the small number of players who will be next placed in a hiding-to-nothing firing line. It's amazing to me the little debate that goes on re: is Noriega is the right man up front, or if he should be urgently replaced, or urgently supplemented. It's almost as if specialist coaching is of no value and incidental to the whole problem.

If we go back over this somewhat sad debate re ''bring back Baxter" (which btw I support, in desperation ;-) ), and the long history of Wallabies forwards depth problems and forwards technical/intensity problems (years of second-rate work to and at the breakdown for example and multiple losses to the ABs and Boks because of it), it's blindingly obvious that Australian elite rugby has deep problems with forwards development at an underlying level.

Accordingly, we clearly need (a) a heightened investment in world-class scrum and forwards coaching capability in Australia, and (b) some sort of deeper, more strategic national program to accelerate the real depth and playing quality of Australia's elite forwards. IMO, this need has been virtually obvious for years now. But I can sense that I am in the absolute minority in making such proposals. The implied counter argument I perceive here is simply: 'we must accept the destiny of the forwards we have coming through the system as we have it today in Australian rugby, and no underlying change to the whole system is needed' vs 'we need to upgrade and improve the whole system'.

One final point: another piece of this is that we must accept the need to give our forwards as much prestige and applause (when deserved) as our backs. We tend to subtly lavish less regard on our forwards stars than the backs. This is linked to the above problem.

 

[daz]

One final point: another piece of this is that we must accept the need to give our forwards as much prestige and applause (when deserved) as our backs. We tend to subtly lavish less regard on our forwards stars than the backs.

We rightly lambasted the forwards and they improved considerably. We lavished much praise on the backs and look how they repaid us.....

I say resist the urge to compliment. Abuse and scorn at every opportunity, and let's see if we can stop these clowns believing their own press. (Until they actually win something!)