Wallabies 2023

[Braveheart81]

I am sorry were you at that meeting? Onerous refereeing has been an issue in union for as far back as I can remember. Poite's last effort is just part of the ongoing problem ie he could have got Foley to kick it out by speaking to him but 'pinged us off the park' instead. I would have said to him 'you kick it out NOW or I'll penalise you' which I think would have been the correct response.
I am merely pointing out an issue that I have had personal experience with as I was a ref for 25 years.

No, I wasn't at the meeting. That is why I asked for details because it interests me.

That was terrible refereeing by Raynal. He chose to start dealing with an issue that has been prevalent in just about every rugby test in the final seconds of a close, critical match which was absolutely ridiculous.

Why I was asking is that let's say a team was offside at every ruck and despite penalizing them on numerous occasions, they didn't change their ways then I don't think the answer there is to just let them be offside because you don't want to blow too many penalties.

 

[Braveheart81]

This is axiomatic and a result we are watching evolve as the years roll by. Take the breakdown, Opposition players now set themselves very low over the breakdown even though they have no chance of jacking, players attempting to clean them out face a potential penalty, 10 mins or a red card. So that is making a mockery of the game all in the name of making it safer.
Ruck Rule: A ruck can take place only in the field of play. A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground. Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick.

There are substantial issues with jackaling. It's certainly become close to the most dangerous aspect of the game if not the most dangerous.

Effectively it's a broken law in that you pretty much can't jackal and also keep your shoulders at the same height or higher than your hips.

 

[LeCheese]

I am sorry were you at that meeting? Onerous refereeing has been an issue in union for as far back as I can remember. Poite's last effort is just part of the ongoing problem ie he could have got Foley to kick it out by speaking to him but 'pinged us off the park' instead. I would have said to him 'you kick it out NOW or I'll penalise you' which I think would have been the correct response.
I am merely pointing out an issue that I have had personal experience with as I was a ref for 25 years.

Raynal* has playing experience just btw. Not sure that really helps your argument.

Raynal was born in Perpignan, France, and played for USA Perpignan and was part of the successful 1998 Junior Perpignan team that won the Junior Championships in France. He joined a local referees society in 2001, while representing the first XV from the University of Perpignan in 2001.

 

[stillmissit]

No, I wasn't at the meeting. That is why I asked for details because it interests me.

That was terrible refereeing by Raynal. He chose to start dealing with an issue that has been prevalent in just about every rugby test in the final seconds of a close, critical match which was absolutely ridiculous.

Why I was asking is that let's say a team was offside at every ruck and despite penalizing them on numerous occasions, they didn't change their ways then I don't think the answer there is to just let them be offside because you don't want to blow too many penalties.

It's a simple fix BH. First you penalise, then you warn them, and then you put them in the bin. I remember a game where Angus Gardiner ref'd after instructions to 'police' the breakdown. He got put on the sidelines for several weeks after many kiwi complaints about his reffing.

There are substantial issues with jackaling. It's certainly become close to the most dangerous aspect of the game if not the most dangerous.

Effectively it's a broken law in that you pretty much can't jackal and also keep your shoulders at the same height or higher than your hips.

BH, I think standing over a ruck with hands on the ball should be similar to jumping to catch a kick. Not sure if it would help but it's all I can think of that might help jackling, which I think is an interesting and important part of the overall competition in our game.
To clean up another comment of mine. I dislike players who are supporting the jackler being set so low that to clean them out risks a penalty or worse.

 

[stillmissit]

Raynal* has playing experience just btw. Not sure that really helps your argument.

Raynal was born in Perpignan, France, and played for USA Perpignan and was part of the successful 1998 Junior Perpignan team that won the Junior Championships in France. He joined a local referees society in 2001, while representing the first XV from the University of Perpignan in 2001.

So what? Angus Gardiner has almost zero playing experience yet I think he's an excellent ref. Dredging up a single reference and trying to disprove my point takes you nowhere.
What I stated was that most refs in my opinion (not all refs) have little rugby playing experience.
BTW Craig Joubert who is one of the best ref's I have seen also has close to zero playing experience. He started to ref aged 18.

 

[Members Section]

So what? Angus Gardiner has almost zero playing experience yet I think he's an excellent ref. Dredging up a single reference and trying to disprove my point takes you nowhere.
What I stated was that most refs in my opinion (not all refs) have little rugby playing experience.
BTW Craig Joubert who is one of the best ref's I have seen also has close to zero playing experience. He started to ref aged 18.

Brilliant Ref, absolutely can not stand the way he talks to everyone like they are in year 8 & he is an assistant principal

 

[stillmissit]

Brilliant Ref, absolutely can not stand the way he talks to everyone like they are in year 8 & he is an assistant principal

Never noticed that as I struggle to hear the refs mike during games. Assistant principal - school?

 

[LeCheese]

So what? Angus Gardiner has almost zero playing experience yet I think he's an excellent ref. Dredging up a single reference and trying to disprove my point takes you nowhere.
What I stated was that most refs in my opinion (not all refs) have little rugby playing experience.
BTW Craig Joubert who is one of the best ref's I have seen also has close to zero playing experience. He started to ref aged 18.

Your initial post implied that playing experience, or lack thereof, significantly impacts refs' (and administrators') decision making. Now you're saying it doesn't matter (which I agree with). Come on mate, pick a side.

 

[stillmissit]

Your initial post implied that playing experience, or lack thereof, significantly impacts refs' (and administrators') decision making. Now you're saying it doesn't matter (which I agree with). Come on mate, pick a side.

No you don't get it. I am stating that a couple of instances does not prove anything and now you are trying to prove me wrong on a couple of instances that I only pointed out so as to be somewhat balanced in my post. The original comment remains in my opinion.

 

[LeCheese]

No you don't get it. I am stating that a couple of instances does not prove anything and now you are trying to prove me wrong on a couple of instances that I only pointed out so as to be somewhat balanced in my post. The original comment remains in my opinion.

I'm not trying to catch you out on a couple of instances, I'm highlighting that your blanket statement of 'most administrators and referees have not played at a post-school level' does not stack up if you actually do a little research.

 

[stillmissit]

I'm not trying to catch you out on a couple of instances, I'm highlighting that your blanket statement of 'most administrators and referees have not played at a post-school level' does not stack up if you actually do a little research.

please show me that research I'd be very interested.

 

[LeCheese]

please show me that research I'd be very interested.

Already highlighted the administrative side of things:

6 of 10 current Rugby Australia Directors have extensive post-school rugby experience:
Andy Marinos - Stormers, Wales
Daniel Herbert - Reds, Wallabies
Phil Waugh - Waratahs, Wallabies
Matt Hanning - Eastwood and English club rugby
David Codey - Wallabies
Karen Penrose - special mention, President of Old Barker RC, father was a test-level referee

Referees are obviously far more numerous and more difficult to get info on, but with some quick googling:
Nic Berry - Reds, Racing, Wasps
Damon Murphy - Brothers, Reds, Rebels ARC, Aus 7s
Mathieu Raynal - as mentioned earlier
Jaco Peyper - can't find specifics, but found a note that he played at a decent level, then got injured and became a ref so he could still be involved
Paul Williams - Southern RFC
Karl Dickson - Harlequins
Glen Jackson - Saracens, Chiefs
Alain Rolland - Leinster, Ireland

 

[Highlander35]

Mike Adamson was a Sevens player for Scotland for 5 or 6 years and now he's a dogshit ref too.

 

[stillmissit]

Already highlighted the administrative side of things:

Referees are obviously far more numerous and more difficult to get info on, but with some quick googling:
Nic Berry - Reds, Racing, Wasps
Damon Murphy - Brothers, Reds, Rebels ARC, Aus 7s
Mathieu Raynal - as mentioned earlier
Jaco Peyper - can't find specifics, but found a note that he played at a decent level, then got injured and became a ref so he could still be involved
Paul Williams - Southern RFC
Karl Dickson - Harlequins
Glen Jackson - Saracens, Chiefs
Alain Rolland - Leinster, Ireland

I will look at some refs backgrounds myself over the weekend.
My argument is based on admins/refs lacking an understanding of how to change the rules to make the game safer. If you have not played the game then your approach to safety is very different from having never played the game. For example, they put in place very strict rules regarding scrummaging after a concerted media campaign regarding the dangers of the scrum, even though most spinal injuries come from tackles gone wrong but left jacklers like Pocock to have their necks twisted regularly over several years and now they have reacted to that issue and almost destroyed the competition for the ball at the breakdown.
There is also a big push in the western world towards 'safetyism' where all must be protected not only physically but also mentally and this, in my opinion, is a large part of the reason for the fall in the number of schools playing the game. These are, in my opinion, the two reasons our sport is under threat long term.

 

[Slim 293]

There is also a big push in the western world towards 'safetyism' where all must be protected not only physically but also mentally

Oh dear, what are they thinking?!

 

[stillmissit]

Oh dear, what are they thinking?!

Nothing!

 

[The Nomad]

The chat from a few pages ago about win/loss under different coaches got me interested to see who we have played recently.

Since 2020 the Wallabies have played 34 tests against the following teams:

NZ 9 times
Argentina 6 times
SA 4 times
France 4 times
England 4 times
Wales twice
Scotland twice
Ireland, Italy and Japan all once

2020 was a bit of an outlier because of Covid we played NZ 4 times and Argentina twice for only 1 win , 2 losses and 3 draws.

When you take into account 2020 and how many times we’ve played the top teams, Rennie’s record isn’t that bad IMO.

 

[Slim 293]

Nothing!

They're not alone...

 

[Doritos Day]

The chat from a few pages ago about win/loss under different coaches got me interested to see who we have played recently.

Since 2020 the Wallabies have played 34 tests against the following teams:

NZ 9 times
Argentina 6 times
SA 4 times
France 4 times
England 4 times
Wales twice
Scotland twice
Ireland, Italy and Japan all once

2020 was a bit of an outlier because of Covid we played NZ 4 times and Argentina twice for only 1 win , 2 losses and 3 draws.

When you take into account 2020 and how many times we’ve played the top teams, Rennie’s record isn’t that bad IMO.

Back to back draws with ARG in 2020 wasn't great. I'd say the only real disaster of his tenure was not winning the England series... that just needed to happen.

 

[Derpus]

I will look at some refs backgrounds myself over the weekend.
My argument is based on admins/refs lacking an understanding of how to change the rules to make the game safer. If you have not played the game then your approach to safety is very different from having never played the game. For example, they put in place very strict rules regarding scrummaging after a concerted media campaign regarding the dangers of the scrum, even though most spinal injuries come from tackles gone wrong but left jacklers like Pocock to have their necks twisted regularly over several years and now they have reacted to that issue and almost destroyed the competition for the ball at the breakdown.
There is also a big push in the western world towards 'safetyism' where all must be protected not only physically but also mentally and this, in my opinion, is a large part of the reason for the fall in the number of schools playing the game. These are, in my opinion, the two reasons our sport is under threat long term.

Yeah everyone is going soft. CTE is good roughage.