Wallabies 2023

[Joe Blow]

Jones is tailor made for the next gig, post RWC. He is Australian and has a record to match most around the world. Despite him being the ripe old age(sic) of 63, he has been coaching at the highest level, and very well I might add, up until this time.
I’m sure he would love a crack at winning Australia a RWC in 27. There would be no better way for him to finish his career. Fark off the kiwi coaches and pull in a local bloke who has just as good credentials, much better than Rennie or Razor no question.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the main reason that certain league defensive coaches tend to work well in union is that the starting pool of professional coaches is larger and while there are significant differences between the games and how defences have to work, the overall premise is the same in terms of tackling, communication and connection between players and those inside and outside them etc.

A good coach is a good coach and can adapt to different situations pretty readily. Experienced league coaches have seen a lot of evolution in the game so they have had to substantially change how their defence operates as the attack structures have changed.

Rugby union is no different. We have seen vast changes over the last 20 years so any coach that has been around that long has had to change what they do a lot as well.

 

[Marce]

Do we still use ex-League coaches for the D?

Cheika in Argentina with David Kidwell. Pretty good results so far

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

It's how Andy Farrell got started as Defence coach for Saracens, England and Ireland. Guess his coaching has some draw backs after watching how Owen Tackles.

 

[Wilson]

It's how Andy Farrell got started as Defence coach for Saracens, England and Ireland. Guess his coaching has some draw backs after watching how Owen Tackles.

Farrell came across as a player and then transitioned from playing into coaching at Saracens, I don't believe he ever coached league.

 

[Proud Pig]

I don’t necessarily agree with your second point.

For proper rugby fans, we would understand whether or not a win was considered ‘a good one’.

But the casual observer who still tune into the Wallabies as a national sporting brand don’t necessarily have that knowledge or really care that much about the opposition.

I think gels point was that the Wallabies a team and brand need a kickstart again to become relevant. Having positive press about wins is an easy way to do that.

I actually think it is the other way around.
Look at what happened with the loss to Italy and Argentina.
The rugby tragics, myself included, could find excuses for those performances, "Italy and Argentina are improving", "We had to rest players because of paying too many games" etc...
The general public though look at it and say "Why should I follow the wallabies they just lost to Argentina the All Blacks will slaughter them."
The casual observer knows enough to know that NZ are top of the tree with England and France but know little about the influencing factors like injury, workload, opposition improvement etc...

 

[Marce]

Not really. Speaking to most diehard Rugby fans they love to put down League for its supposed simplicity, but a lot of history shows our League cousins really do nail the Defensive side of the game. I can already hear someone saying how they don't understand how hard defending at 13 is... They get it and would be able to do it in a heartbeat. Could argue that the speed and ferocity of a league defence these days in union would just lead to yellow cards but I put a lot of that down the intelligence of our own squad.

League players tackle much more than Union players cause they haven't to compete at the breakdown, that's a fact. And they tackle to the upper body so most of the League tackles are high tackles in Union. In term of refereeing Union became softer even when League supporters complain about how soft their game has become

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Farrell came across as a player and then transitioned from playing into coaching at Saracens, I don't believe he ever coached league.

He hasn't coached League but with over 400 games as a player for Wigan & GB and less than 50 Union games I'd throw him into the category of League. No doubt helped him become the Defence coach to start out.

League players tackle much more than Union players cause they haven't to compete at the breakdown, that's a fact. And they tackle to the upper body so most of the League tackles are high tackles in Union. In term of refereeing Union became softer even when League supporters complain about how soft their game has become

Rugby can almost find a problem with a tackle now for it just being considered too hard it seems.

 

[stillmissit]

Had a look at Rennie's results and he had 3 draws and 3 losses by one point out of 34 games. If he had won the draws his record would be 47% if he had won all 6 of the less than one-point games his record would be 55% so he would have been above the last 20-year average. I am not here to defend Rennie his record is his problem and the players under him. All I am saying is that if he had been tougher on discipline, defence and the breakdown (ignoring the attack ATM) he may well have had a job after RWC. I have purposely ignored the injury issues as he had little control over them.

1​	11-Oct​	New Zealand	Sky Stadium, Wellington	16–16	Bledisloe Cup 2020	Michael Hooper	5th	1*	Draw
2​	18-Oct​	New Zealand	Eden Park, Auckland	7–27			5th
3​	31-Oct​	New Zealand	ANZ Stadium, Sydney	5–43	2020 Tri Nations Series		6th
4​	7-Nov​	New Zealand	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	24–22			6th
5​	21-Nov​	Argentina	McDonald Jones Stadium, Newcastle	15–15			6th	2*	Draw
6​	5-Dec​	Argentina	Bankwest Stadium, Sydney	16–16			6th	3*	Draw
2021​		Argentina
7​	7-Jul​	France	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	23–21	2021 France tour of Australia	Michael Hooper	5th
8​	13-Jul​	France	Melbourne Rectangular Stadium, Melbourne	26–28			6th	4*	2 points
9​	17-Jul​	France	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	33–30			6th
10​	7-Aug​	New Zealand	Eden Park, Auckland	25–33	Bledisloe Cup 2021		6th
11​	14-Aug​	New Zealand		22–57	2021 Rugby Championship		7th
12​	5-Sep​	New Zealand	Optus Stadium, Perth	21–38			7th
13​	12-Sep​	South Africa	Robina Stadium, Gold Coast	28–26			5th
14​	18-Sep​	South Africa	North Queensland Stadium, Townsville	30–17			3rd
15​	26-Sep​	Argentina		27–8			3rd
16​	2-Oct​	Argentina	Robina Stadium, Gold Coast	32–17			3rd
17​	23-Oct​	Japan	Oita Stadium, Oita	32–23	2021 end-of-year rugby union internationals	3rd
18​	7-Nov​	Scotland	Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh	13–15			3rd	5*	2 points
19​	13-Nov​	England	Twickenham Stadium, London	15–32			5th
20​	20-Nov​	Wales	Millennium Stadium, Cardiff	28–29		James Slipper	6th	6*	1 point
2022​
21​	2-Jul​	England	Optus Stadium, Perth	30–28	2022 England tour of Australia	Michael Hooper	5th
22​	9-Jul​	England	Lang Park, Brisbane	17–25			6th
23​	16-Jul​	England	Sydney Cricket Ground, Sydney	17–21			6th
24​	6-Aug​	Argentina	Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza	41–26	2022 Rugby Championship	James Slipper[22]	9th
25​	13-Aug​	Argentina	San Juan Bicentenario, San Juan	17–48
26​	27-Aug​	South Africa	Adelaide Oval, Adelaide	25–17		James Slipper
27​	3-Sep​	South Africa	Sydney Football Stadium, Sydney	8–24
28​	15-Sep​	New Zealand	Docklands Stadium, Melbourne	37–39
29​	24-Sep​	New Zealand	Eden Park, Auckland	14–40
30​	30-Oct​	Scotland	Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh	16–15	2022 end-of-year rugby union internationals	James Slipper	6th
31​	6-Nov​	France	Stade de France, Paris	29–30			7th	7*	1 point
32​	12-Nov​	Italy	Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence	27–28		Allan Ala'alatoa	9th	8*	1 point
33​	20-Nov​	Ireland	Aviva Stadium, Dublin	10–13		James Slipper	8th	9​	3 points
34​	27-Nov​	Wales	Millennium Stadium, Cardiff	39–34			6th

 

[rodha]

McQueen brought him into the Wallabies as part of tightening up the D and he did an excellent job. Jones kept him on as he kept most of the players on as well. After Muggleton there was another good defensive coach Les Kiss at the tahs. Do we still use ex-League coaches for the D?

Good article on them here:

Les gives Ireland the Kiss of life while Muggleton's future is muddled

Former representative rugby league stars Les Kiss and John Muggleton have made bigger names for themselves as rugby defence coaches. But Kiss will be…

www.theroar.com.au

 

[stillmissit]

He hasn't coached League but with over 400 games as a player for Wigan & GB and less than 50 Union games I'd throw him into the category of League. No doubt helped him become the Defence coach to start out.

Rugby can almost find a problem with a tackle now for it just being considered too hard it seems.

Ghost, one of the issues with rugby union is that most of the administrators and referees have not played the game or, if they did, it was only at school where the expectations are very different. Therefore we get this ongoing reduction and control of the contact areas. This is based on player safety but it reminds me of politicians putting more and more onerous laws on us in the name of making us safer (whilst they can fine us $$$) at least our admin doesn't get to make money out of making the game safer.

 

[Braveheart81]

Ghost, one of the issues with rugby union is that most of the administrators and referees have not played the game or, if they did, it was only at school where the expectations are very different. Therefore we get this ongoing reduction and control of the contact areas.

I don't know that this is fair.

Also, the majority of the World Rugby Executive Committee are former international rugby players.

The game is getting safer despite players getting bigger, faster and stronger.

 

[rodha]

You are very quick to attribute the Wallabies fortunes to a handful of individuals.

Seems unlikely to be honest. Whatever we have achieved over the last 20 odd years has been against the tide of poor administrative decisions and has always been fairly fleeting.

Having said that I think a 50% win rate is pretty respectable and seems achievable even with our systemic flaws - part of why Rennie needs to go.

I among many was quite disappointed when Rennie hired Taylor as defence coach given his very poor record with Scotland.

Les Kiss and Steve Tandy were far better options, Kiss was an outstanding defense coach for 5 years at Waratahs, then became defensive coach with Ireland from 2009-2015, helping them claim 3 Six Nations titles, including a Grand Slam, dominant record over England, additionally never lost to Dean's or Cheika's Wallabies (drew in 2009, 15-6 massive upset at 2011 RWC, beat Wallabies Autumn 2014).

 

[stillmissit]

I don't know that this is fair.

Also, the majority of the World Rugby Executive Committee are former international rugby players.

The game is getting safer despite players getting bigger, faster and stronger.

The executive has a role that is often defined by dealing with the media and those dogs are hard to live with. The refs from my experience were mostly non-players at any level above school. There were a couple of exceptions. To give you an example I was at a refs meeting and they were discussing dealing with a rule issue, one of the refs suggested 'ping them off the park' to the general approval of all there excluding me.

The rule changes are always about making the game safer but you cannot make a contact sport safe and if you do you don't have a contact sport anymore.

 

[Braveheart81]

The rule changes are always about making the game safer but you cannot make a contact sport safe and if you do you don't have a contact sport anymore.

Where is there any evidence of this whatsoever?

To give you an example I was at a refs meeting and they were discussing dealing with a rule issue, one of the refs suggested 'ping them off the park' to the general approval of all there excluding me.

Want to extrapolate on this? What was the rule issue exactly?

It seems like "pinging teams off the park" is the best way to reverse continual breaking of laws.

 

[stillmissit]

It seems like "pinging teams off the park" is the best way to reverse continual breaking of laws.

I am sorry were you at that meeting? Onerous refereeing has been an issue in union for as far back as I can remember. Poite's last effort is just part of the ongoing problem ie he could have got Foley to kick it out by speaking to him but 'pinged us off the park' instead. I would have said to him 'you kick it out NOW or I'll penalise you' which I think would have been the correct response.
I am merely pointing out an issue that I have had personal experience with as I was a ref for 25 years.

 

[Slim 293]

Poite's last effort is just part of the ongoing problem ie he could have got Foley to kick it out by speaking to him but 'pinged us off the park' instead.

If only Poite could've been there to speak to him... if only...

 

[LeCheese]

Ghost, one of the issues with rugby union is that most of the administrators and referees have not played the game or, if they did, it was only at school where the expectations are very different.

6 of 10 current RA Directors have extensive post-school rugby experience:
Andy Marinos - Stormers, Wales
Daniel Herbert - Reds, Wallabies
Phil Waugh - Waratahs, Wallabies
Matt Hanning - Eastwood and English club rugby
David Codey - Wallabies
Karen Penrose - special mention, President of Old Barker RC, father was a test-level referee

 

[stillmissit]

Where is there any evidence of this whatsoever?

This is axiomatic and a result we are watching evolve as the years roll by. Take the breakdown, Opposition players now set themselves very low over the breakdown even though they have no chance of jacking, players attempting to clean them out face a potential penalty, 10 mins or a red card. So that is making a mockery of the game all in the name of making it safer.
Ruck Rule: A ruck can take place only in the field of play. A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground. Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick.

 

[stillmissit]

If only Poite could've been there to speak to him... if only...

Fuck! I knew I should have checked. Who was it again? I have a lousy memory and it has always been like that.