Wales v Australia, Monday 18 November 3:10am AEDT

[LeCheese]

Late in the first half he stopped the game again because he thought he saw a dangerous clean out, that was completely fine. A professional referee should be able to calmly handle both of these situations in ways that don't back them into logical corners.

You're referring to the clean out on Kerevi, where there was in fact head contact? You can absolutely understand why that was seen as dangerous, and it was perfectly adequately managed. That call came from - or was at least affirmed by - the AR on the near sideline, by the way.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Why is it twisted logic. The logic here is you as the tackler need to be in control of your own tackle - and if you do anything that reduces your control (like sprint into contact in this example) then you have to accept the risk. The reward being if it comes off you put the attacking team on the back foot if you get it right.

His height wasn't ok - and whether you accept it or not, that has been consistently applied for a long time. He's no lower than the ball carrier who is merely bracing for contact (predictable - all ball carriers do this in contact) and he's driving up.

There are a lot of examples where players can cut down space in rush defence or hit someone hard at speed and not hit someones head at the same time, this just wasn't one of them.

Spot on. Plenty of backrowers nail this. Take the space, drop and drive. It's not hard and takes practice. Defender can rush, hold, whatever they want but the risk lies with them and their next decision when initiating contact.

Heaps of retirements, poor administration and a broken domestic system (more broken than ours).

Its incredibly sad. Couldn't believe how quiet the stadium sounded on TV after Tom Wrights second try.

Their Clubs are in worse shape than ours. Youth players choosing England over Wales also with quite a number born in English hospitals I read.

The stadium was at most 75% full which we wouldn't mind at times but in Wales cmon it's meant to be the game.

 

[JRugby2]

You're referring to the clean out on Kerevi, where there was in fact head contact? You can absolutely understand why that was seen as dangerous, and it was perfectly adequately managed. That call came from - or was at least affirmed by - the AR on the near sideline, by the way.

They questioned head on head - it wasn't, it was the softest hand to face you can imagine and as we were rightly reminded by Gus last week - not all head contact is foul play.

Again - coming from the AR or seeing it live doesn't matter here. They have protocols and the tools to review these things in real time as the game continues so that in the event that it's nothing we don't have an unnecessary stoppage. That system works pretty well week in week out in professional rugby - he for some reason thought he didn't need it

 

[Dctarget]

From a team that couldn't buy a try in the TRC, to highest score at Twickenham then highest score in Cardiff. Scored the same amount of points in the last two games as we did in 6 TRC games. Lesson to me is we gotta pull a SHexit and go join the 6N.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

From a team that couldn't buy a try in the TRC, to highest score at Twickenham then highest score in Cardiff. Scored the same amount of points in the last two games as we did in 6 TRC games. Lesson to me is we gotta pull a SHexit and go join the 6N.

Like playing a video game on hard and then lowering it (at least Wales).

 

[LeCheese]

They questioned head on head - it wasn't, it was the softest hand to face you can imagine and as we were rightly reminded by Gus last week - not all head contact is foul play.

Again - coming from the AR or seeing it live doesn't matter here. They have protocols and the tools to review these things in real time as the game continues so that in the event that it's nothing we don't have an unnecessary stoppage. That system works pretty well week in week out in professional rugby - he for some reason thought he didn't need it

There was clear head-on-head - the leading hand to the face prior made the head contact look far more forceful in real time.

You can understand why the game was stopped for seemingly an incident of foul play, and I find it bizarre that the handling of this incident is what you're hanging your hat on with respect to Doleman being 'nervous'. The protocol was followed, and it was decisively and quickly dealt with.

 

[JRugby2]

But it wasn't followed was it because that's not the process. If it is - why didn't we immediately stop for the Kerevi tackle? Doleman was right there - near side AR had an un-obstructed view? You can hear them talking about immediately after the hit too so it's not like they just thought it was a good hit.

We don't actually really ever stop for foul play now because it's reviewed in the back ground to keep the game flowing in the event something looks bad but it isn't actually and we don't stop the game. If we stopped for everything that looked bad the only people who would be happy would be advertisers.

A calm referee handles both of those incidents differently. There was another where he waves Nick White away from a maul only to bring him back literally the next second - what is the relevance?

Also - way to cherry pick an image. The slow and real time replay video (about 1h21m in the stream) shows the slightest graze from the hand and head that snicko might not even register. No force, no illegal action by the player in the clean out. Not all head contact is foul play.

 

[Derpus]

Fuck rugby is dumb sometimes...

 

[Wilson]

Yeah, South Africa ain't gonna be pretty.

Gatland basically gave his resignation speech in the post-match. It's very clear he thinks it's best for him to go, but the higher-ups do not see it that way.

He is on a large and long contract, I think the higher ups would probably like to see him gone with the next coach getting clear air to rebuild (in a way that Pivac never did in part because of the spectre of Gatland), but they really don't want to pay him out. It's all down to Gatland resigning or them coming to some sort of deal where his departure doesn't bankrupt them.

 

[Wilson]

no one special, South Africa.

Gatland was dejected minute one. Grim watching.

He could see what was coming when we scored that first try, saw the defence cut to shreds a few times in the early stages and new they weren't going to have an answer over the 80.

 

[TSR]

My sweet Prince Kerevi may have played his last test. Didn’t do anything miraculous, cops a red card which unless appealed (which may happen) will rule him out of the rest of the series and honestly the Wallabies looked better without him.

I thought he was very good right up to the card. Carried well but also made good run/pass decisions and seemed to defend well prior to the card.

 

[Wilson]

I can't quite get my head around what happened to Wales. They should've been feeling pretty pleased after RWC23. Somehow in 12 months they're the worst team in their entire history.

The way he sandbagged the team with old heads on coming in for the world cup has given them a lot of false hope and really set them up for crushing failure. He threw out a lot of what Pivac had been trying to build (whether or not he was nailing it) and has had to start again himself this year anyway. Not really sure his heart is in it either, probably should've stepped into a transition role post world cup to help bring the next coach through, but at least this period spent trashing his legacy will give whoever that is clear air.

Interestingly enough if Wales do want a coach with international experience to come in Cheika and Rennie are probably right up the top of the list of those available. Stealing Vern Cotter away from the blues might be the other, but I have a feeling he's less likely to want it.

 

[LeCheese]

But it wasn't followed was it because that's not the process. If it is - why didn't we immediately stop for the Kerevi tackle? Doleman was right there - near side AR had an un-obstructed view?

We don't actually really ever stop for foul play now because it's reviewed in the back ground to keep the game flowing in the event something looks bad but it isn't actually and we don't stop the game. If we stopped for everything that looked bad the only people who would be happy would be advertisers.

A calm referee handles both of those incidents differently. There was another where he waves Nick White away from a maul only to bring him back literally the next second - what is the relevance?

Also - way to cherry pick an image. The slow and real time replay video (about 1h21m in the stream) shows the slightest graze from the hand and head that snicko might not even register. No force, no illegal action by the player in the clean out. Not all head contact is foul play.

Probably time to Rule 10 this, so last post on it from me.

The referee has the discretion to stop the game if they believe foul play has occurred, or they can let it play (typically as a penalty advantage) and have it be reviewed concurrently. That is the protocol, and that is what happened here. As Wales was in possession, and it was potential foul play against Australia (and it looked like there may have been a small knock-on from Wales after the ball was cleared from the ruck), there was no point essentially playing advantage while the potential foul play was reviewed.

I would have posted a gif, but Stan's anti-screen capture tech makes it difficult. You said there was no head contact, so I chose that image as it clearly shows there was.

I would implore you to go back and watch both the real time and slow-mo of it (35:37 game clock). It's clear why Doleman may have thought there was foul play from the point of contact, movement of Kerevi's head, and the fact that Kerevi stays down. The AR in-shot is also on the mic telling Doleman as much. The slow-mo demonstrates there was indeed head contact, but it appeared exaggerated in real time due to the leading hand. Possible foul play occurred, it was reviewed, and a decision was made based on the evidence. The officials did their job.

 

[Tomikin]

I haven't watched the Aus XV game yet, but reports of Lonergan's performance weren't great and that's what might keep White in the squad for next year.

It'll depend on the outcome of the judiciary, but it's unlikely Kerevi gets another shot to prove he should be there for the Lions. Will likely remain an option in the event of injury to Ikitau/Sua'ali'i/Paisami though.

Kerevi still well ahead of Paisami..

 

[Shiggins]

There was clear head-on-head - the leading hand to the face prior made the head contact look far more forceful in real time.

You can understand why the game was stopped for seemingly an incident of foul play, and I find it bizarre that the handling of this incident is what you're hanging your hat on with respect to Doleman being 'nervous'. The protocol was followed, and it was decisively and quickly dealt with.
View attachment 20787

how about the shot on white. low danger? he came off for HIA. yeh right good call. low danger that resulted in a concussion.

 

[Shiggins]

not sure about JOS. he came on and almost got him self carded 3 times.

bell worked very hard but wasn't as dominant as last week. bobby V was unreal. MOM surely.

I feel for Wales. we have all been there and know what it's like.

 

[JRugby2]

Probably time to Rule 10 this, so last post on it from me.

The referee has the discretion to stop the game if they believe foul play has occurred, or they can let it play (typically as a penalty advantage) and have it be reviewed concurrently. That is the protocol, and that is what happened here. As Wales was in possession, and it was potential foul play against Australia (and it looked like there may have been a small knock-on from Wales after the ball was cleared from the ruck), there was no point essentially playing advantage while the potential foul play was reviewed.

I would have posted a gif, but Stan's anti-screen capture tech makes it difficult. You said there was no head contact, so I chose that image as it clearly shows there was.

I would implore you to go back and watch both the real time and slow-mo of it (35:37 game clock). It's clear why Doleman may have thought there was foul play from the point of contact, movement of Kerevi's head, and the fact that Kerevi stays down. The AR in-shot is also on the mic telling Doleman as much. The slow-mo demonstrates there was indeed head contact, but it appeared exaggerated in real time due to the leading hand. Possible foul play occurred, it was reviewed, and a decision was made based on the evidence. The officials did their job.

I understand every bit of what you're saying here, and I didn't realise I needed to clarify I meant 'no head contact/ head on head constituting foul play'.

I'm saying that the game didn't need to be stopped to arrive at the outcome of it being not foul play. Doleman could have just as easily gone "hey TMO check that please" and played on - like he did with the kerevi incident. But instead decided to make a scene - presumably because he was anxious

 

[Tomikin]

Thoughts on players:
- Interesting we got great change from our maul & lineout but not scrum, even with big Willy.
- Thought Uru was fairly quiet and didn't do enough in an easy win to displace Wilson
- Trying to tackle Valetini is an occupational hazard and should be banned.
- Skelton was easily one of our best. He carries so often for a man his size and always makes metres and takes multiple players with him. Add on his maul defence/attack he was crucial.
- I thought White was fine, not sure what people think he did wrong? He navigated a good half where we scored 19 unanswered, his box kicking was very useful.
- Wright is playing on easy mode. His stats are going to be bananas. Hard to go past him for MOTM.
- Kellaway learning from Koroibete, he was everywhere. His best in Gold in years. He plays 10kg above his weight, makes way more metres in contact than he should. He made a couple defensive reads that brilliantly shut down Welsh potential tries.
- McDermott is perfect for a bench role, I'd keep him there.
- Our players looked so, so, so much fitter than the Welsh.


We always play down to the Welsh, I think our winning margin against them is always a couple of points, so enjoy this victory.

I agree with everything there, I think Tom Wrights run metres were 272 and 6 defenders beat with 3 tries.

I'll also add, I think LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) is really a weapon off the bench, the guy comes on against tired D and is just destructive.

 

[Shiggins]

I understand every bit of what you're saying here, and I didn't realise I needed to clarify I meant 'no head contact/ head on head constituting foul play'.

I'm saying that the game didn't need to be stopped to arrive at the outcome of it being not foul play. Doleman could have just as easily gone "hey TMO check that please" and played on - like he did with the kerevi incident. But instead decided to make a scene - presumably because he was anxious

the difference is it was a penalty by Wales while they had the ball. not a penalty against Wales while they had the ball. he called it a penalty on the spot so stopped. and it should have stayed a penalty. not sure how they got to the conclusion it wasnt a penalty. there was clear head contact

 

[JRugby2]

the difference is it was a penalty by Wales while they had the ball. not a penalty against Wales while they had the ball. he called it a penalty on the spot so stopped. and it should have stayed a penalty. not sure how they got to the conclusion it wasnt a penalty. there was clear head contact

But in the end it wasn't a penalty at all, and that's because there was no force, low impact and nothing illegal about the clean out. So we stopped the game for nothing when wales had the ball in good field position.

Once more for those in the back - not every time someone's head is touched in a game of rugby does it mean foul play has occurred.