Tri Nations Game 3 New Zealand v Australia - Saturday 6 August 2011 - 3N2011

[Jay]

The ultimate is winning the WC not being ranked number 1. The ABs still have not realised this.

I suspect they have, and I don't think it's an either/or situation. Realistically, there's really only 1 time a team has genuinely built a 4 year plan to win the WC (England in 03). All the talk of teams keeping their powder dry is largely smoke & mirrors 90% of the time, I reckon.

As an example, it's not unthinkable that Aus could well win the WC this year, I think they're definitely able to do so. But how much of that will be due to a master plan from Deans and how much due to factors beyond his control. Beale was probably the Wallabies best back last year but if Rob Horne hadn't got injured, Deans might not even have given him much of a go and Genia & Cooper's development is probably more down to McKenzie than Deans. If they do win, it's not cause Deans was willing to lose 10 in a row to Henry it'll be in spite of it.

The AB's still rebuild and test combinations like any team, they just win more when doing it.

 

[barbarian]

TOCC Aussie rugby is full of pessimists. There is something about relatively wealthy 50 and 60 somethings that just makes them grumpy old bastards who predict the ABs to beat us by 30 and then take a degree of pleasure to see us lose.

I watched with one such type, who after the ABs got up 10-0 predicted that the ABs would get to 80. Points not minutes. After the game I said I thought the scoreline flattered the ABs, he vehemently disagreed and said we deserved to lose by 50. Whilst I may be a bit on the optimistic side (as most younger fans tend to be) his constant negativity really gave me the shits.

 

[DPK]

Maybe they're sadists at heart, Barbar?

 

[Bowside]

There's our problem right there. We have a national coach who doesn't actually coach. Our strongest forwards were Horwill, Higginbotham and Simmons- surprise surprise, all Reds players. Thank God for Ewen McKenzie, because Jim Williams has no fucking clue whatsoever. Useless, completely and utterly useless. Everybody in the world knows that our strong point isn't in the forwards, and yet we persist with the same guy who's presented us with lacklustre results over the past few seasons. Not only that, but Robbie Deans the Messiah picks a captain with one S15 game all season and picks a #8 with no impact.

But what really pisses me off is how little Deans has done in the backs. He is our backs coach, and he gets away with doing no actually coaching because our game plan is to 'play what's in front of us'. Well, after 4 years of Robbie's intricate, revolutionary game plan, what do we have to show for it? The Bledisloe Cup- no wait, 2 wins from 13 games. Ah, but at least we won the Tri-Nations- sorry, my mistake, in the past 3 years we've got two 2nds and a 3rd. But none of that matters because we still beat Eng... no, sorry, the Cook Cup rests in the RFU's trophy case. At least we can keep our heads high and say we haven't lost to anyone like Scotland or Samoa, and definitely not a depleted club side like Munster.

Wait, my apologies once again- we have.

Ewen McKenzie managed to get the best out of Quade Cooper by using him with a game plan. He knew what he had to do, with some margin for his own creativity. But at least there was a broader target set by the coach. With Deans, we have none of that. Giving Quade Cooper free reign is the worst thing for him. It means instead of him attempting 5 risky plays per match with 4 coming off, he instead attempts 20- but this time, the ones that go wrong are more frequent and more detrimental due to both the quality of opposition and the lack of structure. I really hope J'ON withholds his contract negotiations, because his job is to win the RWC in 2011. We've spent the last four years telling ourselves that it doesn't matter that we've suffered record defeats to NZ, SA, Samoa and lost to Scotland and England because it was all in pursuit of William Webb Ellis' eponymous trophy.

So unless we're Elsom hoists that coveted golden cup above his head on October 23rd, Deans has failed miserably and J'ON should take immediate action.

I think its JO'N fault as much as anyones. At the end of the day he is master in command.

But as I said before, I thought the set piece was alright, it was the packs work around the field that killed us. We lost the game at contact and the breakdown, but realistically, how any coach could go into a game against a kiwi side not expecting a fight in these areas is beyond me. The lack of gameplan (which includes selections) and execution is a continual problem in australian rugby at both provincial and national level.

Its just the little things that were so successful at the reds that deans just totally seems to ignore at national level, for example the way at the reds the number 8 always took it off the back of the scrum and threw it to genia so he and quade just had a couple of extra seconds to put something together. Little things.

Its what allowed us to lose to teams like Samoa, Scotland, England and draw with Ireland, because they know that all they have to do is disrupt our game plan for an extended period and the wallabies become totally beaten and ineffective, even if they are still kicking the odd penalty.

 

[Jay]

TOCC Aussie rugby is full of pessimists. There is something about relatively wealthy 50 and 60 somethings that just makes them grumpy old bastards who predict the ABs to beat us by 30 and then take a degree of pleasure to see us lose.

I watched with one such type, who after the ABs got up 10-0 predicted that the ABs would get to 80. Points not minutes. After the game I said I thought the scoreline flattered the ABs, he vehemently disagreed and said we deserved to lose by 50. Whilst I may be a bit on the optimistic side (as most younger fans tend to be) his constant negativity really gave me the shits.

I think that's rugby in general.

I remember back in 1993 I watched the Lions beat the AB's at Athletic Park when John Kirwan was burned for pace by Rory Underwood. And old grump sitting in front of me was spitting tacks that this "Crap bloody blonde Auckland cart-horse POSER! was still in the team". I mean this is a guy who was the AB's top tryscorer and one of the players of the tournament in 87, but now that he was a bit older and a bit slower he was being dismissed as a wannabe poser.

I suspect that sort of attitude has only been made worse in recent years as the generational split is also the professional/amateur split - I can't imagine many traditional old types taking too kindly to James O'Beiber's hairstyles, Digby's dancing or Andy Ellis's absurd facial hair (unless they were Victorian era buffs).

 

[BDA]

We still have a chance to take a mental edge into the world cup with a win at Suncorp. We'll be going from a stadium where we never win (eden park) to a stadium where we rarely lose.

My opinion has never changed over the last 7 days. I was always of the view that we would lose at Eden Park and win at Suncorp. I still hold that view.

I feel your frustration RH. But you're only frustrated because you know that we have all the tools to take it the all blacks. We just didn't put it together last night. We started slowly, made poor decisions, and left a lot points on the park (not just the 9 kickable points back with the territory and possession we had we probably should have got a few more tries). I feel the same frustration. But I wouldn't be frustrated if I thought we couldn't win it.

So be frustrated but don't be doom and goom.
We know we have all the ingredients, we just need to put them together.
The factors that made us lose this game a all fixable. I was have been more disappointed if we'd come out of this game having been exposed in one area of the game. I don't think we were. It would have been much worse if we come out of this game with an obvious weakness that would have had other teams licking their lips but i don't think we have.

Another plus is no injuries which is rare in a game of high intensity.

 

[Jay]

We still have a chance to take a mental edge into the world cup with a win at Suncorp. We'll be going from a stadium where we never win (eden park) to a stadium where we rarely lose.

Ahem.... http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsgur...orderby=won;team=8;template=results;type=team

Just kidding, I think the Wallabies are probably favourites to win that one, especially as Henry looks to be resting a few guys. Read & Thorn are rumoured to be staying at home, the latter of which depowers the scrum a fair bit and as good as Thompson is, he's just not as savvy as Read.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

There's our problem right there. We have a national coach who doesn't actually coach.

But what really pisses me off is how little Deans has done in the backs. He is our backs coach, and he gets away with doing no actually coaching because our game plan is to 'play what's in front of us'.

Ewen McKenzie managed to get the best out of Quade Cooper by using him with a game plan. He knew what he had to do, with some margin for his own creativity. But at least there was a broader target set by the coach. With Deans, we have none of that.

How do you know any of this? Have you been to the Wallabies training camp and attended these sessions? I just find it a bit rich of a conclusion in desperate search for a scapegoat when almost all of us have no inside knowledge to support the claim. Watching last night I guess you'd also suggest O'Connor has never trained his goal kicking with his 0% effort too right?

All Blacks were awesome across the park and shutdown our attack superbly. They had us shell-shocked in the first 30 minutes yet we still ended up the game 3 trys to 2. If we had been playing any other nation last night I honestly think we could have won, but last night's result should have AB's deserving credit for their game rather than the Wallabies crucified for theirs.

 

[Thomas]

I saw this last night and I think I'm right but does anyone else think this is a knock on by Sivivatu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzFqcRMfD78&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL at 14:22 when Quade does his cross field kick Sivivatu grabs at it, his hand rolls over it (Possible knock on) then at 14:24 he has the ball in his hands and puts it down forward. The touch judge is right there with a good view the whole time as well. Then Muliaina plays the ball on the ground Reid and Sivivatu are lying on the ball and the touch judge has a perfect view of it all.

 

[TOCC]

TOCC Aussie rugby is full of pessimists. There is something about relatively wealthy 50 and 60 somethings that just makes them grumpy old bastards who predict the ABs to beat us by 30 and then take a degree of pleasure to see us lose.

I watched with one such type, who after the ABs got up 10-0 predicted that the ABs would get to 80. Points not minutes. After the game I said I thought the scoreline flattered the ABs, he vehemently disagreed and said we deserved to lose by 50. Whilst I may be a bit on the optimistic side (as most younger fans tend to be) his constant negativity really gave me the shits.

Such behavioural patterns are usually a subconscious defensive mechanism..
People are unwilling to invest positive energy into something due to the fear of failure, by being defensive from the onset it gives them a feeling of security...

Bet your bottom dollar that these very people will jump on the bandwagon when the opportunity presents itself though.

 

[Jay]

I saw this last night and I think I'm right but does anyone else think this is a knock on by Sivivatu?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzFqcRMfD78&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL at 14:22 when Quade does his cross field kick Sivivatu grabs at it, his hand rolls over it (Possible knock on) then at 14:24 he has the ball in his hands and puts it down forward. The touch judge is right there with a good view the whole time as well. Then Muliaina plays the ball on the ground Reid and Sivivatu are lying on the ball and the touch judge has a perfect view of it all.

I think it came off Sivivatu's shoulder so not a knock on. He then does the 'release and get to feet to play it again' but only gets to his knees which is illegal. When Mils goes down on the ball it could be viewed as being out of the tackle, but it's marginal. Sivi has definitely played the ball off his feet though.

I'm not really sure what the Assistant ref's remit is in terms of what they bring to the attention of the ref. Knock ons for sure, sometimes forward passes (I'm told some refs don't actually want their assistants to flag forward passes as it's a judgement call and they prefer only one person's judgement be used), rule 10 foul play obviously but things like playing the ball on the deck and incorrect entry don't seem to get flagged that much.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

To me the frustrating part was not that we lost yesterday, more the manner in which it happened. The All Blacks were immense and much credit must go to them. They were focused and clinical. We, on the other hand, looked a bit gunshy and nervous. If I didn't know better, I could have sworn that we'd convinced ourselves that winning wasn't possible.

Nothing summed it up better than the stat about how much of the pill we had in the All Black 22 and yet in 40 minutes of footy we couldn't score. Leaving the goal kicking aside for a moment, we just kept going too lateral and shovelled the ball along the back line or to stationary pods of forwards. There was no charging up the middle to try and get the All Black defence on their heels. They would have been content to just keep knocking blokes over, safe in the knowledge that we weren't going to break the line consistently. That's the problem with going wide before you go forward.

The second half was better, but by then we were a beaten team. Our set piece was mostly good and we secured our ball fairly well at the break down, but as I said during the game, there was too much one out stuff once the ball was cleared. Beating the All Blacks takes organisation, speed and forward grunt and for much of the game we didn't have it. The situation is clearly not hopeless, but we will need to win in Brisbane to feel like we can head over to NZ with any confidence. Before that, however, we need to front up against the Boks and knock them over. I think we can do it, but it's a big task we've now set ourselves.

 

[Riptide]

So unless we're Elsom hoists that coveted golden cup above his head on October 23rd, Deans has failed miserably and J'ON should take immediate action.

I think your expectations are both unrealistic and your reaction is based on false assumptions. Deans has never been a coach that just simply gave players free reign to do whatever they wanted with a ball; he didn't do so at the Crusaders and he is not doing so now. The Wallabies had little good front ball to work with for most of the game, and they lost to the better team.

The general consensus is that the NZ is the best team in rugby, and the Wallabies are No.2 Losing to NZ in NZ is disappointing, but while NZ can be beaten even at home under the pressure of a knock-out tournament, they will remain strong and deserved favorites. Should the Wallabies lose to Ireland and then be knocked out in the Qtrs by the Boks, then Deans position would be untenable. But losing to NZ in the final would not warrant Deans termination.

Personally, I would like to see the Wallabies being coached by an Australian and more specifically Link and his excellent coaching staff. I think the Wallabies would attain their potential under his leadership. They may yet do so under Deans.

 

[Riptide]

To me the frustrating part was not that we lost yesterday, more the manner in which it happened. The All Blacks were immense and much credit must go to them. They were focused and clinical. We, on the other hand, looked a bit gunshy and nervous. If I didn't know better, I could have sworn that we'd convinced ourselves that winning wasn't possible.

Nothing summed it up better than the stat about how much of the pill we had in the All Black 22 and yet in 40 minutes of footy we couldn't score. Leaving the goal kicking aside for a moment, we just kept going too lateral and shovelled the ball along the back line or to stationary pods of forwards. There was no charging up the middle to try and get the All Black defence on their heels. They would have been content to just keep knocking blokes over, safe in the knowledge that we weren't going to break the line consistently. That's the problem with going wide before you go forward.

The second half was better, but by then we were a beaten team. Our set piece was mostly good and we secured our ball fairly well at the break down, but as I said during the game, there was too much one out stuff once the ball was cleared. Beating the All Blacks takes organisation, speed and forward grunt and for much of the game we didn't have it. The situation is clearly not hopeless, but we will need to win in Brisbane to feel like we can head over to NZ with any confidence. Before that, however, we need to front up against the Boks and knock them over. I think we can do it, but it's a big task we've now set ourselves.

Excellent summary. I find myself in agreement with most of it. I would add that the ABs did an excellent job at the breakdown of disrupting Wallaby ball, and that their critical midfield axis of Carter, Nonu, Smith vastly outplayed their opposites. Their job was made easier by the quality of ball NZ generated. Even a surfeit of possession did not deliver the consistent quick ball the Wallabies needed, and so attacks broke down in the face of a fast, physical and high organized NZ defense that realigned quickly and was further compromised by a hesitant display from Cooper.

 

[Bowside]

I think your expectations are both unrealistic and your reaction is based on false assumptions. Deans has never been a coach that just simply gave players free reign to do whatever they wanted with a ball; he didn't do so at the Crusaders and he is not doing so now. The Wallabies had little good front ball to work with for most of the game, and they lost to the better team.

The general consensus is that the NZ is the best team in rugby, and the Wallabies are No.2 Losing to NZ in NZ is disappointing, but while NZ can be beaten even at home under the pressure of a knock-out tournament, they will remain strong and deserved favorites. Should the Wallabies lose to Ireland and then be knocked out in the Qtrs by the Boks, then Deans position would be untenable. But losing to NZ in the final would not warrant Deans termination.

Personally, I would like to see the Wallabies being coached by an Australian and more specifically Link and his excellent coaching staff. I think the Wallabies would attain their potential under his leadership. They may yet do so under Deans.

I agree with you somewhat, but I think saying "its ok that we lost because we were playing the all blacks and they are really good" is also a bit of a cop out. We don't have the depth they do, but we still have some pretty damn good players, and it is my opinion that Australia are a much better team than what they showed last night. One thing that rugby has taught me is that once the whistle blows, the team sheet counts for nothing, and every game can be won. Look no further than samoa a couple of weeks ago.

 

[The_Riddler]

Cooper was absolutely hopeless, looked like a deer in headlights at times. The gap between Carter and him is immense. We have zero chance of winning the World Cup unless with have a 10 who plays with direction. The midfield struggled to have any impact as a result. Ioane was excellent. Barnes to come back at 12 with McCabe/ACC/Horne at 13.

 

[Riptide]

I'm not disagreeing with argument, just not on board in saying that "it's a cop out" to acknowledge that this NZ team is currently the best in the game. They are the best because they have beaten the No. 2 side 11 out of the past 12 times and havent lost to anyone else in a couple of years.

While I feel that this NZ team playing at their best will beat most teams 11 out of 12 times, pressure can do enormous damage to a team or some members of a team, and we have seen the effects of that on NZ in the pro era. Deans and the Wallabies must devise tactics that will place NZ under that pressure, through defense and attack, and the players must execute for the full 80. What is acutely disappointing is that the Wallabies have not done that very well under Deans.

 

[TOCC]

Cooper was absolutely hopeless, looked like a deer in headlights at times. The gap between Carter and him is immense. We have zero chance of winning the World Cup unless with have a 10 who plays with direction. The midfield struggled to have any impact as a result. Ioane was excellent. Barnes to come back at 12 with McCabe/ACC/Horne at 13.

better start tying that noose now then huh

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Cooper was absolutely hopeless, looked like a deer in headlights at times. The gap between Carter and him is immense. We have zero chance of winning the World Cup unless with have a 10 who plays with direction. The midfield struggled to have any impact as a result. Ioane was excellent. Barnes to come back at 12 with McCabe/ACC/Horne at 13.

Ok. Easy to say - care to make some suggestions? From the Aussie 10's that stood out during the S15 season.

 

[DPK]

Stanard?