Tokyo Wallaby 22

[Lee Grant]

Great stuff Gagger - I appreciate the stuff like that you post, though it was damn hard to watch again.

They were ahead of the ball all night, especially Thomson and Rodney when he came on. I remember George Smith whingeing to the ref after Rodney hit a ruck, not even in the side, but from our side and saying something like, "but we can't get at the ball". I nearly vomited.

Often players get ahead of the ball because of the early impetus at the breakdown of more than one player so if you haven't matched that it is just like missing the hit in the scrum and there will be residual movement ahead of the ball by the dominant team at the the ruck. If your game plan is not to match that impetus you can't moan about the other side getting ahead of the ball. They have earned advantage.

But when you get opponents stumbling through like Thompson that night, and as Hore and Ali Williams do on occasion, and they are allowed to get away with it by the ref, then you have to harden the farque up and take them out. But if you don't have blokes going into rucks there's nobody to take them out and it will be pant's down and bend over.

That's why I felt nauseous when Smith said what he did. Sheep will be refereed as sheep. I'd rather be a wolf. I'd rather be doing what they're doing and if it's a night when the wolves can howl, I wan't to hear some Aussie howling - not Aussie whingeing.

When the Waratahs had their bad year in 2007 and were contenders for the wooden spoon I looked up the stats and apparently we were the least penalised team in the comp. I posted somewhere at the time that I didn't want my team to be the less penalised team, I wanted them to win games.

To win games you can't, whatever game plan you have, and however illegal the actions of opponents, surrender the ruck contest. No, you don't have to have all your forwards pile in to every ruck, but you have defend all your own ruck ball and win the winnable ones when the other mob take it in.

More or less, that's what we did in Perth against the Boks.

 

[Spook]

I thought we'd gone over all this in the last AB Wobbly thread :nta:. Forwards hanging around at wide instead of chasing the ball and not getting in front of the ball at the breakdown - as Gagger puts it so nicely. Why were the forwards hanging out wide? Probably due to the lack of size of our backs. ..which is why Deans is going bigger out wide. Personally I think our forwards were caught in two minds in NZ...do we hold our position or chase the ball. In the end, they did neither.

 

[Gagger]

I think they held out wide pretty well Spook - until the last 10 min.

The bigger question is was this the right tactic to choose, especially when the ABs had realised they could make yards through the ruck all night?

We seem happier to front up to the monstrous Saffas, and then play "death by suffocation" with the ABs, hence the knife-edge kick-a-thons.

What's the thinking? Are we that afraid of them out wide? Has Robbie decided the ABs are gonna clean up at the breakdown anyway, so we might as well fan out?

 

[Spook]

Yeah fair enough but it was a shit tactic as you say (to stay out wide). You have to try and win the collisions.

 

[steiner]

Deans is simply implementing the same tactics he did as coach of the Crusaders. That's the way he coaches, that is what has worked for him in the past, that is why he is now Wallaby coach. I doubt if he will be changing it.

He tries to get the forwards as effective as possible at ruck and maul time and use them as economically as possible so he has players free to cover gaps out wider. He selects players who he believes might achieve this for him. Such as Brown, Hodgson and recently a couple of the Sydney Uni. forwards who were good in this area. As soon as Moore's throwing radar went off he elevated TPN who is better in tight. As at the Crusaders, he won't tolerate loafers in the pack.

The reason his tactics didn't work in the recent match against the AB's was because the ref was easy at officiating the breakdown and since the Wallabies weren't committing numbers to the ruck they didn't take full advantage of this.
The AB's conversely did. The ref was much stricter in the previous match and the tactics were more effective. That is the basic reason why the Wallabies went from riches to rags in the space of two weeks.

It is not such a huge matter of concern as people are making it out to be. It would be if there was no explanation for it, or answer to it. But there is! Deans and the Wallabies will just have to tweak their tactics a bit and and if the ref is being easy at the breakdown they will have to pile in as the AB's did to take advantage of the ref's laxity.

And if the ref is simply biassed, well, then there is liitlle any team can do about that, and after WC '07 many Kiwis would agree!

 

[waratahjesus]

Deans is simply implementing the same tactics he did as coach of the Crusaders. That's the way he coaches, that is what has worked for him in the past, that is why he is now Wallaby coach. I doubt if he will be changing it.

He tries to get the forwards as effective as possible at ruck and maul time and use them as economically as possible so he has players free to cover gaps out wider. He selects players who he believes might achieve this for him. Such as Brown, Hodgson and recently a couple of the Sydney Uni. forwards who were good in this area. As soon as Moore's throwing radar went off he elevated TPN who is better in tight. As at the Crusaders, he won't tolerate loafers in the pack.

The reason his tactics didn't work in the recent match against the AB's was because the ref was easy at officiating the breakdown and since the Wallabies weren't committing numbers to the ruck they didn't take full advantage of this.
The AB's conversely did. The ref was much stricter in the previous match and the tactics were more effective. That is the basic reason why the Wallabies went from riches to rags in the space of two weeks.

It is not such a huge matter of concern as people are making it out to be. It would be if there was no explanation for it, or answer to it. But there is! Deans and the Wallabies will just have to tweak their tactics a bit and and if the ref is being easy at the breakdown they will have to pile in as the AB's did to take advantage of the ref's laxity.

And if the ref is simply biassed, well, then there is liitlle any team can do about that, and after WC '07 many Kiwis would agree!

the reffing had nothing to do with us beating the springboks then losing to the all blacks. in brisbane we played with enthusiasm, we got on a roll and the springboks were tired and not u to the usual standards they set this season.

in NZ, the all blacks were beating us so we rolled over and died like the true lap dogs we are at the moment.

a team that wins on entusiasm, is always an underdog, and unfortunately at the moment that is the only way we are going to beat a better side. problem with australian rugby is not enough of these players seem to give a shit when we start losing. Mortlock, Mumm, Rocky and only really a handful of others have shown any signs of caring when we have fallen behind on scoreboards this year.

if the all blacks are hitting a ruck in numbers, then we have to cmmit enough people to stop them, its not rocket science and its not due to the ref. the all blacks can exploit robbie deans all day long cos he has been coach of most of there current players. if were going to win we need tactics that suit the style and play of the players we have available, not be moulded into the form of crusaders b side.

 

[Lee Grant]

The reason his tactics didn't work in the recent match against the AB's was because the ref was easy at officiating the breakdown and since the Wallabies weren't committing numbers to the ruck they didn't take full advantage of this.
The AB's conversely did. The ref was much stricter in the previous match and the tactics were more effective. That is the basic reason why the Wallabies went from riches to rags in the space of two weeks.

if the ref is being easy at the breakdown they will have to pile in as the AB's did to take advantage of the ref's laxity.

if the all blacks are hitting a ruck in numbers, then we have to commit enough people to stop them, its not rocket science and its not due to the ref.

Though wjesus is in conflict with steiner parts of both posts resonated with me.

We used to be the smart team but we seem not to be now. All referees are different, and different from one match to the other. They, like players, have good form and bad form. Forget cheating - we haven't seen cheating since the olden times when teams toured France and South Africa.

We have to be smart enough to play in a way that is effective with the ref on the day. Never become sheep, but if the ref allows wolves to howl, howl. Don't let the other team hunt in a pack and expect the sheep to be spared.

One reason I admire McCaw so much is that he has an insect sensitivity to the style of the ref and his mood on the day. In the clip that Gagger posted you can see McCaw bump into a ruck sideways to stop a drive at that point. It's so quick that you hardly notice it, but it's something that he would never have done if he were playing against a Paddy O'Brien type in an angry mood.

Our players have to be more like that and be ready to change tack during a game and, as wjesus indicates - if the other mob is pushing the envelope, mail it back.

 

[Spook]

Good post LG. I wonder if this just another of the "pre-programmed Wallaby" problems.

 

[Scotty]

But when you get opponents stumbling through like Thompson that night, and as Hore and Ali Williams do on occasion, and they are allowed to get away with it by the ref, then you have to harden the farque up and take them out. But if you don't have blokes going into rucks there's nobody to take them out and it will be pant's down and bend over.

Even worse to me was Nonu running past tackled wallaby players to block the support coming to secure the ball. This happened twice and was very obvious at the time, except to the ref. The All Blacks have been masters at these sort of tatics for years (having blocking players ahead of the ball - on both there ball or the oppositions), and whenever it gets picked up they get bitten big time. Unfortunately it seems to only get picked up once every 10 games or so.

 

[Lee Grant]

So - the message to the Wallabies is - what?

Your answer is right.

 

[Gagger]

All well and good guys, but a coach and a team have to have a game plan going into a match. Are you going to flood the breakdown, or are you going to keep width in defence and attack to try and retain (or re-find) the famed Wallaby defensive record? Adapting to the ref and oppo are good ideas of course, but they're also reactive.

With 10 flankers or lock/flankers going on tour, and only one lock, I think we know the answer to that question for the next few weeks?

 

[louie]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,26263440-5016959,00.html

really wish they'd stop talking to this bitter idiot.

 

[Lee Grant]

I don't mind him now, though one took some of his comments after his Oz and Reds sackings with a grain of salt.

But these days I find him forthright and interesting more often than not. His analysis of players, games and trends is usually not too far off the mark.

 

[cheezel]

Not sure if already posted but here is the team

15. Adam Ashley-Cooper (Brumbies) 14. Peter Hynes (Queensland Reds) 13. Ryan Cross (Western Force) 12. Berrick Barnes (Queensland Reds) 11. Digby Ioane (Queensland Reds) 10. Matt Giteau (Western Force) 9. Will Genia (Queensland Reds) 8. Wycliff Palu (NSW Waratahs) 7. David Pocock (Western Force) 6. Rocky Elsom (Brumbies, captain) 5. Mark Chisholm (Brumbies) 4. James Horwill (Queensland Reds) 3. Ben Alexander (Brumbies) 2. Tatafu Polota-Nau (NSW Waratahs) 1. Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs)

16. Stephen Moore (Brumbies) 17. Matt Dunning (Western Force) 18. Dean Mumm (NSW Waratahs) 19. George Smith (Brumbies) 20. Luke Burgess (NSW Waratahs) 21. Drew Mitchell (Western Force) 22. James O'Connor (Western Force)

No Smith. Gits still at 10, Cross, Hynes and Diggers in.

From http://www.scrum.com/australia/rugby/story/104580.html

 

[BillyWebb]

Some random thoughts on that team:

If Ioane has the sort of form he had pre his injury in the S14, then a good addition. Just hope he's had enough time to get back into things following his lay-off.

Hynes hasn't been at the top of his game imho this season and I think he's lucky to be there, and Drew Mitchell a trifle unlucky to be riding the pine.

That's a pretty handy tight 5. With a little self-belief, they could give the AB's a real bang-up battle upfront.

Be interesting to see how that backrow combination goes....

 

[chief]

I love the backline. But what the hell, dropping George Smith, well you know what, I've got beef with Robbie Deans and his shit selections, keep your best player in the fucking team. What the hell is he thinking Pocock is no where near as good as Smith. Why can't we just fire him already, and find someone more suitable. Its just stupid, I' bewildered, I would be watching this game on Saturday night with mates. Instead I'm going to go to a mates place to do something better than watch Robbie Deans's shit as shit team get screwed up by the All Blacks. Sure a good backline, but how are we meant to give it to the backs with a shit forward pack.

Good thing is Lawrence is the referee, he unlike the other South African referees does not have his head up his ass, and has a realistic view of the game, and unlike Kaplan actually knows what a yellow card offense is. Sad thing is if he gets injured Joubert the arrogant loser is the referee. Mind you unlikely that will occur.

 

[Biffo]

Deans ... Why can't we just fire him already, and find someone more suitable.

Your candidate is?

 

[chief]

Mate, as much as I find him a dick. I'm all for PDV. Or Jake White, or even David Nucifora

 

[Biffo]

Mate, as much as I find him a dick. I'm all for PDV.

Think he'd be available?

 

[chief]

When I come callin' he'll come runnin'