Tokyo Wallaby 22

[Biffo]

How would anyone know? Queensland form ain't international form.

I think you meant to say Super 14 form is not international form. What does it matter which team he plays for, it matters more which teams he performs against.

Agreed. Badly worded. My point is that we haven't seen enough of Ioane at 13 to get any real measure of where he sits in the world order. I have a huge opinion of him, but can't judge his international capability yet.

 

[Biffo]

Rocky has had a major haircut and trim of the beard. A worry?

 

[Lee Grant]

Our blokes got beaten comfortably the last time they had a midweek game against a club and I don't think that this lot are any better.

Still, the two clubs won't be playing their gun players - but the same was true last time.

Yeah England are up shit creek with injuries. Sheridan had a nasty shoulder dislocation and even one of the backups, White, got crocked in a game I was watching on the weekend. Delon Armitage, one of the few stars against us last year is also out.

But whereas England, and even Wales to some extent has, not depth, but width, many players who are not stars but aren't much worse that the top players, they will still be formidable.

Australia not only lacks depth in nearly all positions, (a world class player or near enough, a good international player backing him up, an average experienced test player backing him up, and a youngster champing at the bit as no. 4) it also lacks width - a choice of players more or less the same.

Until we increase the number of senior men players, and increase the number of players playing professional rugby, or even semi professional ARC type rugby, we will never be at the top of the wozza in international rugby, unless other nations retreat.

Around 1999 we had a pretty good core of elite players that we used a lot, notwithstanding that a lot of players got a Wallaby jersey, especially for the RWC. 10 years later the size of that elite player pool is inadequate for the programme we have now against the standard of opponent we have now.

Nations like England, France and South Africa have a big number of professional and semi professional players who are standing on the shoulders of one or two generations of professional rugby players. Unless we increase our numbers we will always be where we are, give or take a blip up or a fall down.

And don't point out that NZ doesn't have a huge pool either. Their national competition and back and front office infrastructure throughout the land gets more cream rising to the top than we can dream about.

 

[RugbyReg]

Mils Muliaina, Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Sitivenu Sivivatu, Daniel Carter, Jimmy Cowan, Rodney So'oialo, Richie McCaw (capt), Adam Thomson, Tom Donnelly, Brad Thorn, Neemia Tialata, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock. Reserves: Corey Flynn, John Afoa, Jason Eaton, Kieran Read, Brendon Leonard, Stephen Donald, Tamati Ellison

 

[PaarlBok]

Probably the strongest All Black team on paper we saw all year.

 

[Henry]

.

Nations like England, France and South Africa have a big number of professional and semi professional players who are standing on the shoulders of one or two generations of professional rugby players. Unless we increase our numbers we will always be where we are, give or take a blip up or a fall down.

Yeah, I read somewhere that in Australia we have about 50'000 registered rugby players (maybe less), and South Africa has in excess of 500'000 registered rugby union players... Its ridiculous, how are we meant to compete with that! We are doing pretty well considering...

And.... Maybe Mitchell was benched because he stuffed up his ankle just before they left and Deans didn't wanna chuck him straight in the deep end... Lucky Hynes... Unlucky Turner...

 

[PaarlBok]

According the IRB

England 698160
South Africa 511560
France 282120
New Zealand 140,000
Japan 122670
Sri Lanka 121000
Ireland 114630
Argentina 91460
Austrlaia 82820
USA 67260
Italy 61050
Wales 47000
Malaysia 34750
Kenya 33670
Scotland 32810
Zimbabwe 26500
Samoa 23180
Fiji 22600
Canada 21590
Serious
Russia 19700
Madagascar 17000
Thailand 16740
Chile 16660
India 14560
Spain 14350
Tunisia 14000
Ivory Coast 11560
Hong Kong 10860
Significant
Germany 9310
Singapore 9060
Jamaica 8860
Belgium 8500
Uganda 8240
Netherlands 8060
Nigeria 7800
Tonga 7720
Romania 7690
Namibia 7600
Papua New Guinea 6700
Portugal 5880
Uruguay 5530
Morocco 5250
Minor
Poland 4910
Swaziland 4870
Czech Republic 4680
Paraguay 4360
Botswana 4300
China 4200
Trinidad & Tobago 4140
Ukraine 3890
Arabian Gulf 3700
Zambia 3650
Brazil 3530
Sweden 3300
Georgia 3200
Cameroon 3200
Solomon Islands 3070
Chinese Taipea 2980
Colombia 2940
Senegal 2800
Serbia 2420
Luxemborg 2370
Kazakhstan 2330
Moldova 2270
Cayman Islands 2260
Denmark 2200
Venezuela 2150
Vanuatu 2140
Hungary 2100
Switzerland 2090
Croatia 2000
Novelty
Tahiti 1890
Lithuania 1850
Cook Islands 1730
South Korea 1260
Norway 1220
Mexico 1190
Austria 1060
Philippines 1050
Guyana 1030
Slovenia 890
St Vincent & Grenadines 860
Bosnia Herzegovina 820
Bermuda 750
Bahamas 730
Peru 660
Latvia 620
Israel 610
Indonesia 570
Guam 530
Malta 490
Finland 450
British Virgin Islands 360
Monaco 320
Niue 290
Barbados 230
Andorra 220

This can be misleading tho, its registrer players. SA youth rugby dont play at clubs and I am pretty sure if you add our schoolboy players we'll outnumber England with ease.

 

[Lee Grant]

It's not just the population of registered senior men players. We have more than the Kiwis have last time I looked. [That list posted can't be apples for apples.]

What is critical is the population of men playing rugby for a living, even though that living for some players eg.non-Super players in the Vodacom and Currie Cups in the RSA and the ANZC competition in NZ, is for only part of the year. The best of those semi pro players rise to become Super players. Sure, some of them are duds when they get to Super rugby, but they would have more duds if they didn't have that filtering process.

We don't have the filtering process and are stuck with too many players who don't belong.

Because of their 3rd tier of rugby competition players in the RSA and NZ who graduate to Super rugby are more mature - in age, in rugby experience, and in physical preparation, compared to Oz debutants. We promote too many players into Super rugby who were schoolboys the year before or the year before that.

And even if they are older than that, some promoted club players have to learn their position for the pro game because it is too much of a step from what they are used to.

It is an old song I sing - but that song relates only to the players. There is also a deficiency in the depth and width we have in coaching, administration, medical etc etc, because we don't have a working population in those spheres because we have only 4 teams who could be described as either professional or semi-professional.

So; they piss off offshore if they are coaches and don't go to rugby in the first place in other categories.


As for Turner being unlucky - maybe so, but Hynes is a real footie player who has the experience to use the X factor he has and deserves a shot. But Turner will be back and one hopes he will be able to hold down a test fullback position someday.

 

[Scott Allen]

Smith ain't the worlds best 7 - not at the moment but if he's left at 7 with a #8 doing his job, he'll be back up there - Smith isn't the problem - the lack of a #8 is
Gits isn't the the Worlds best 12 - but if he's selected there and stays there, he will go back to the top of the #12's where he was before we started playing musical chairs
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) isn't one of the world's best 13s - agree
Dunning is infinitely better than Pek Cowan - yes but he's not better than Baxter - have no idea why Cowan is there (apart from being our 3rd hooker
We ain't that good really - agreed - we've got a long way to go - being number 3 in the world is an underachievment given the calibre of players we've got - it's time for the selection merry go round to stop and start building combinations

I actually think we overacheive, considering the tight forward we have. Our engine room is currently a two stroke whilst the Boks have a V8 and the ABs a straight 6. - Fair enough - would be nice to have some locks to put pressure on blokes like Horwill
I tend to agree Gits could be a great 12 again, if we had a 10 that could be relied on to give him the space and opportunity he deserves.

IMHO it's time to make a choice of a guy that could be a long term #10 (I vote for Barnes) and play that combination for the next 5 tests on tour to give them time to develop. With time together I think Barnes can give Giteau the space he deserves - I think Giteau will play better at #12 and therefore be more positive.

Acnowledge that Barnes has been a bit injury prone but Giteau isn't best suited at #10. Can't keep picking hin there because we're worried about Barnes getting injured. If Barnes does get injured put the next best in at #10 and give him time to develop. It's not ideal to have such a lack of depth but surely it's time to make a bold move. We just seem to be stagnating.

 

[PaarlBok]

It's not just the population of registered senior men players. We have more than the Kiwis have last time I looked. [That list posted can't be apples for apples.]

Sure it aint aplles for apples and the reason I mention the kiddies. In England they have to registrer the kiddies for insurance , in SA the kiddies go through the school system and thats where our masses of players are.

Agree with you like usual about the top lot. Strong structure at the base the most important one, thats where the factory is who produce the top one and the soul reason why Oom Paarl feel so strong about our CC with its youth competitions.

 

[chief]

Turner had a poor game when he last played. Not bringing on Hynes was a massive mistake. Unlucky Hynes lucky Turner if you ask me

 

[Newb]

If Barnes does get injured put the next best in at #10 and give him time to develop.

behind door #3, it's Quade Cooper!!

 

[Scarfman]

Really? Christ, I hope not. Who says Cross is in?

Gossip in the papers.

We'll consider Smith and Cross to be test cases in the research question: "Can you tell a matchday 22 from watching training, to see who is wearing the B-team bibs." I'll see if I can get some government funding.

Good news. The funding has come through.

A few of my detractors have egg on their faces:

Scarfman, I think your research proposal might meet with some strong opposition from certain media figures whose weekly columns would be reduced to a smattering of NSWRU backroom chatter if speculation about match day 22's based on watching a few drills from the car while chowing down on a 4 and 20 was revealed to be without scientific basis.

The answer is "no". Best of luck with the funding application.

 

[Biffo]

Good news. The funding has come through.

A few of my detractors have egg on their faces:

Scarfman, I think your research proposal might meet with some strong opposition from certain media figures whose weekly columns would be reduced to a smattering of NSWRU backroom chatter if speculation about match day 22's based on watching a few drills from the car while chowing down on a 4 and 20 was revealed to be without scientific basis.

The answer is "no". Best of luck with the funding application.

Congrats on the funding.

No egg on my face. Can you tell me the statistical sgnificance of the findings from your sample?

 

[cheezel]

Just on ABC heard Berrick has been taken to hospital for a bung ankle.

If he's gone, I think we'll see AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) into 12 and J'OC into 15. I'd much prefer Quade in 10 and Gits to 12 but doubt it.

Link
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/10/29/2727741.htm?site=sport&section=all

 

[Scorz]

A question for you Aussies.

IF your EOYT turns out like this:

Tokyo v AB's: Loss
London v England: Loss
Dublin v Ireland: Loss
Edinburgh v Scotland Win
Caerdydd v Wales: Loss


...do you expect Deans to survive?

 

[Geronimo]

Just wanted to make it known that Billy Webb wins the avatar comp--- sensational!!!!

 

[Scotty]

Good question, Scorz. I reckon it will be 50/50 at that stage. It would depend on how badly we lost I suppose.

 

[Geronimo]

He will survive, any other action would be more embarrassing than the losses

 

[Scorz]

Good question, Scorz. I reckon it will be 50/50 at that stage. It would depend on how badly we lost I suppose.

You guys will lift for the AB's and Poms so lets say those are close ones, but a more-than-12-behind loss to the Taffs and Paddy's each and I'd be surprised if the boomerangs's stayed shoved in your undies.

Geronimo, surely it would be more embarrassing to persist with a proven failure if that's where it goes?

Not on a wind up here by the way. Just in case someone wades in! :sharpe: