The Wallabies Thread

[barbarian]

There are other No 7s putting in more on the field - where it counts - than Hooper in 2016?

I don't agree with this statement at all.
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[Sully]

Or, and I'm just putting this out there, he's not playing that well.
His tackle numbers are down and so are his ruck numbers.
The Waratahs win percentage is down as well so maybe they need more hard work and less glitter.

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[ForceFan]

Similar data for Blind Side Flankers.

I've included Tui for comparison purposes only.

I've included data for both Reid and McMahon.
IMO it appears that McMahon compares better as a No6 than No 7 and Reid is more of a No 7.

Of concern is that only Fardy and McMahon regularly play full games.
Much can be made of Cheika's so-called "finishers" but these plans can easily fall into chaos when players suffer injuries early in the game.

It's easy to see why Fardy continues to be first pick - and his Test outcomes are regularly above Super Rugby level.

Again Jack Dempsey appears to have heaps of potential but 2016 may be a bit early.

We will miss Dave Dennis.

Piggies to come.

 

[barbarian]

Or, and I'm just putting this out there, he's not playing that well.
His tackle numbers are down and so are his ruck numbers.
The Waratahs win percentage is down as well so maybe they need more hard work and less glitter.

Again, it's not about the numbers. He's been the Waratahs best forward by a margin this year. A big margin. Calling what he does 'glitter' is a bit silly. The bloke is in the rough stuff as much as anyone.

There are plenty of fingers to be pointed at Waratahs players and coaches, but not one of those will be at Michael Hooper.

Honestly I'm not totally wedded to the guy as Wallaby 7, but think the opposition to him here is quite staggering.
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[Braveheart81]

Seems like a difficult argument to be pointing at Hooper for the series whitewash against England when he was given the Wallabies MOTM award (and I believe players' player in two of the three tests).

 

[RebelYell]

If we had some decent locks at the Tahs it'd be worth trying, but we don't. So, no.

From a Wallaby perspective though?

 

[Viking]

Hooper is no McCaw. Not even close. So let's not try to make like-for-like comparisons.

I don't know how Hooper got on the short-list. I'm sure you guys will have felt that way about plenty of other nominees and even winners over the years.

This year you are talking about a guy who hit less rucks with the lowest tackle % than all the other Aussie 7's in Super Rugby. And almost all of your 8's.

Personally, I don't think he does enough of the grunt work. That's just my opinion.

To quote @ForceFan from a few pages earlier:

Hooper is probably more like Savea if you want a like-for-like example. Minus the footwork. The goal of my post was to explain to you his selection in the team over the other poor options, not how comparable he is to McCaw - obviously not the same league as McCaw.

So who are you selecting instead of Hooper? McMahon? McCalman? Yeah the options are pretty shit aren't they...

 

[ForceFan]

The reality over the season is that there is little difference between the average team numbers at the breakdown.

The 5 Aussie teams have averaged 2.4 - 2.7 players per Attack Ruck.

The 5 Aussie teams have averaged 0.7 - 0.8 players per Defence Ruck.

Specific numbers for each team and range as follows:

Brumbies
Attack - Av 2.4 (range 2.2 [SunWolves & Hurricanes] - 3.3 [Chiefs])
Defence - Av 0.8 (range 0.6 [Crusaders & Blues] - 1.3 [Chiefs & Waratahs])

Waratahs
Attack - Av 2.5 (range 1.9 [SunWolves] - 2.9 [Force])
Defence - Av 0.7 (range 0.5 [Stormers] - 1.0 [Reds & Brumbies])

Reds
Attack - Av 2.7 (range 2.4 [Brumbies & Chiefs] - 3.4 [Blues])
Defence - Av 0.8 (range 0.6 [Cheetahs] - 1.0 [Bulls])

Force
Attack - Av 2.4 (range 2.2 [Blues & Rebels] - 2.8 [Blues])
Defence - Av 0.8 (range 0.6 [Cheetahs] - 1.0 [Stormers])

Rebels
Attack - Av 2.4 (range1.8 [SunWolves] - 2.9 [Canes])
Defence - Av 0.8 (range 0.5 [Crusaders & Highlanders] - 1.0 [Bulls/SW])

Another reality is that for Defence Rucks:
+ The Brumbies and Force have significantly reduced their player involvement over the season. The Force following Hodgson's injury.
+ The Rebels and Reds have marginally reduced their player involvement.
+ The Waratahs have marginally increased their player involvement.

 

[ForceFan]

Honestly I'm not totally wedded to the guy as Wallaby 7, but think the opposition to him here is quite staggering.
.

Isn't the purpose of a Forum to air and discuss alternate viewpoints?

 

[barbarian]

Isn't the purpose of a Forum to air and discuss alternate viewpoints?

Of course. I'm not saying you can't say that at all. Go for your life.

I can say I think it's a bit ridiculous, though.
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[Strewthcobber]

Is it not just as valid to highlight Hooper's lower work rate in 2016 as it is to say that the lower involvement COULD be part of the Coach's game plan?
And to highlight that there are other No 7s putting in more on the field - where it counts - than Hooper in 2016?

Could is fine.....
The second part is where you lose me. Hooper had twice the rucks involvements as James Haskell did in Melbourne. 38 v 20 (kudos to whoever produced those great stats )

Does anyone think Hooper had a better game than Haskell?

 

[ForceFan]

I can say I think it's a bit ridiculous, though.
.

I suggest that you go back and read #1876 as you will see that on average the Force has only about 10% more Ruck Involvements than the Waratahs
The Rebels and the Reds actually have more Ruck Involvements than the Force.

 

[cyclopath]

From a Wallaby perspective though?

I'd really want to see it work below Test level first. In theory he maybe could be. but he really would need to improve his mobility significantly. In any position, he needs some work.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Similar data for Blind Side Flankers.

I've included Tui for comparison purposes only.

I've included data for both Reid and McMahon.
IMO it appears that McMahon compares better as a No6 than No 7 and Reid is more of a No 7.

View attachment 8194

View attachment 8195
Of concern is that only Fardy and McMahon regularly play full games.
Much can be made of Cheika's so-called "finishers" but these plans can easily fall into chaos when players suffer injuries early in the game.

It's easy to see why Fardy continues to be first pick - and his Test outcomes are regularly above Super Rugby level.

Again Jack Dempsey appears to have heaps of potential but 2016 may be a bit early.

We will miss Dave Dennis.

Piggies to come.

McMahon, Cottrell and Dempsey look to be the potential future Wallabies. Have you got their respective vital statistics, ie height weight, age etc and compare with Fardy as the incumbent?

 

[TOCC]

McMahon, Cottrell and Dempsey look to be the potential future Wallabies. Have you got their respective vital statistics, ie height weight, age etc and compare with Fardy as the incumbent?

You mean the kind of 'vital statistics' that are published on Wikipedia and/or the teams website?

 

[upthereds#!]

Really interesting article in the Australian regarding releasing players to go overseas.

Releasing the players means that AUS does NOT have to pay them their salary anymore. Eg...the Reds will pay Gill to December if the ARU DON'
T release him, they save 6 months of salary if they do.

If a player IS released to go to Europe early, they can still come back to play if they WANT eg ..mitchell, gits, genia & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (same would go for any 60+ tests....sooo Beale, TPN (probs) & Poey)

However it would mean NO To'omua, Tomane, Holmes etc for not just the RC but also the EOYT.


What would you do?!?! Save the money and let them go with the 60+ coming back if they WANT to, OR force them to stay, costing us heaps but annoying the European clubs?

 

[Braveheart81]

What would you do?!?! Save the money and let them go with the 60+ coming back if they WANT to, OR force them to stay, costing us heaps but annoying the European clubs?

You've surely got to be selective. If the player is going to be in your final 30 man squad you don't release them. There's no point cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Holmes, To'omua and probably Joe Tomane would be the three you certainly wouldn't be releasing. TPN and Pocock won't be released. They'll be in the matchday 23.

You probably would release Gill because it doesn't seem likely he'd be in your final squad.

 

[Braveheart81]

Carrying on a discussion from the Hayne thread, who are the players likely to be on ARU top up contracts next season?

Props
Slipper, Sio, Kepu

Hookers
Moore

Locks
Simmons, Douglas

Back Row
Hooper, Fardy, McCalman

Halfbacks
Phipps

Fly halves
Foley, Cooper

Centres
Leali'ifano, Kuridrani

Wing/Fullback
Folau, Horne


That is only 16 players.

There will clearly be some more that are in the mix after the 2016 test season is over however you'd imagine that on previous policies, players would have needed to be in the mix in 2015 to be getting top up money next year. That would be players like Carter, Smith, Skelton, Hanson. If Moore and TPN stay healthy, Hanson might not play a test this year.

Players that have only just debuted like DHP, Arnold, Coleman, Frisby, Kerevi etc. presumably wouldn't be on the radar for a top up until the year after. Frisby might not get to play again this year if Genia comes back in and Genia and Phipps stay healthy.

 

[Viking]

Is Hunt on a top up?

 

[Braveheart81]

Is Hunt on a top up?

I thought the ARU kicked in some money initially but I can't imagine that will still be the case in 2017.