The Wallabies Thread

[Viking]

And the scrum...

And the breakdown...

And the goal kicking...

But Slim we don't need those things when Larkham is playing

 

[Brumby Runner]

Couldn't disagree more, Slim. Gregan in his latter years was uber crap, so slow I used to wander over to the voluminous beer lines for a shout as he paused over the pill. George was, usually, still ruminating what to do next when I returned. Gregan stayed FAR too long, to the detriment of Oz rugby.

To stick with one player through thick and thin, as the Oz rugby selectors did with Gregan, is/was very dangerous. No thought was taken into account if George went down injured fer instance. And the episode when Gregan flew back to Oz for the birth of one of his children between weekend commitments in Britain on an EoYT was weak in the extreme by the ARU. I don't know what Gregan had over the ARU/selectors but it must've been bloody good. The folly of staying with a player for too long, in this instance, Gregan, bit us on the arse at RWC2007.

And before I'm accused of being Tah-centric, I sincerely hope the ARU/selectors thing about this circumstance as it applies ATM with Foley. It is crucial we plan for his unavailability through injury.

Lindommer, I don't want to debate the merits or otherwise of Gregan's form towards the end of his career, but I do agree quite strongly with your argument about players staying on too long. I think there have been a few over the years (Mortlock being an example), but I'm more concerned atm that staying on too long is exactly what Cliff Palu is doing right now. The Wallabies could be better served by using the time Poey is here playing 8 by developing a couple of up and comers behind him. Obviously, Holloway is the stand out but he is injured and not currently available, but even had he been available I very much doubt that he would have displaced Cliffy in the final 30 (or whatever) man squad. Time for Cheika to bite the bullet and let the likes of McMahon and Browning get some time there for the sake of the future.

EDIT : That might have been the thinking about selecting Houston in the initial squad, but if so, he shouldn't have been cut while Palu remained.

 

[upthereds#!]

He has to overtake them by getting better than them, as all international players have had to do since the dawn of test rugby. I doubt that any professional sportsman sees older players as a queue thay can't jump.

You said "he's on a fast track to the wallabies"...he just got dropped out behind 4 other locks of a similar age and that's not including Douglas...doesn't seem like too much of a fast track.....

 

[Gnostic]

Lindommer, I don't want to debate the merits or otherwise of Gregan's form towards the end of his career, but I do agree quite strongly with your argument about players staying on too long. I think there have been a few over the years (Mortlock being an example), but I'm more concerned atm that staying on too long is exactly what Cliff Palu is doing right now. The Wallabies could be better served by using the time Poey is here playing 8 by developing a couple of up and comers behind him. Obviously, Holloway is the stand out but he is injured and not currently available, but even had he been available I very much doubt that he would have displaced Cliffy in the final 30 (or whatever) man squad. Time for Cheika to bite the bullet and let the likes of McMahon and Browning get some time there for the sake of the future.



EDIT : That might have been the thinking about selecting Houston in the initial squad, but if so, he shouldn't have been cut while Palu remained.

The Gregan example I used has opened up old wounds I see and as many as cry Tahs distorted specs, just as many can cry Brumbies blinkers. Valid arguments can be made on both sides, and I won't let that skew the debate on now just because I'm right.....


As BR says Palu is the modern example at risk. The key difference between the cases is that Gregan had a clear alternative in Whitaker at that time. If the Wallabies want to play the dominator style 8 that Palu provides there is currently no other alternative, as I said there would have been if Vaea hadn't unfortunately succumbed to health issues and even if Holloway was uninjured he doesn't provide that sort of dynamic. In a previous post I compared the situation to 1998 when Willie O was retiring and Kefu was coming up the ladder, they provided a that totally different dynamic.

The Pooper is a totally different dynamic again and if the Wallabies go with that and do not want the Dominator option at all then I'd suggest that McMahon is the right option over McCalman.

So if the Wallabies start with the Pooper and a dominator is wanted on the bench who fills the role if not Palu?

This isn't about individuals it is about the dynamic of the side as a whole, and if I can go back to my previous comparison that so stirred the pot, it is why Gregan was in my view selected for two seasons past his best even though he was slow to the breakdown, slow with the pass and took two or three steps before every pass. He clearly wasn't the best 9 in the country on a purely individual basis, but as part of a team dynamic that is an entirely different argument.

 

[cyclopath]

I think we have to be careful about labelling players who "stay on too long" as selfish. Ultimately, coaches and selectors pick players, and these guys are professional players, so why wouldn't they keep playing as long as someone wants to pay them quite well for the gig. Gregan, Palu, whoever. Players become "old" when in their early 30s, which is young in life terms.
I strongly agree with those saying selectors and coaches need to plan for the future better sometimes.
Gnostic's point about team dynamics is a good one too.

 

[Forcefield]

Lopeti Timani at 8 for the last 20 would probablybe better than Palu ATM. But if you want to play Skelton and Pooper. You need a backrow jumper off the bench like Mumm or McCalman. Neither of those guys are great at impact either. This is why I reckon Cheika was foolish to cast Luke Jones aside. Luke Jones could be the perfect 4/6/8 off the bench to go with Skelton and mitigate the risks of Pooper in the lineout. I am confident Jones could have provided bench impact.

 

[Dave Beat]

Lopeti Timani at 8 for the last 20 would probablybe better than Palu ATM. But if you want to play Skelton and Pooper. You need a backrow jumper off the bench like Mumm or McCalman. Neither of those guys are great at impact either. This is why I reckon Cheika was foolish to cast Luke Jones aside. Luke Jones could be the perfect 4/6/8 off the bench to go with Skelton and mitigate the risks of Pooper in the lineout. I am confident Jones could have provided bench impact.

Yes I've always liked the idea of Jones of the bench, but i can also see Fardypooper playing 80.
So I'd have to be an injury replacement rather than an impact replacement - more of a reason for Jones (lock / 6 / 8) given Pooper covers 7.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The Gregan example I used has opened up old wounds I see and as many as cry Tahs distorted specs, just as many can cry Brumbies blinkers. Valid arguments can be made on both sides, and I won't let that skew the debate on now just because I'm right...


As BR says Palu is the modern example at risk. The key difference between the cases is that Gregan had a clear alternative in Whitaker at that time. If the Wallabies want to play the dominator style 8 that Palu provides there is currently no other alternative, as I said there would have been if Vaea hadn't unfortunately succumbed to health issues and even if Holloway was uninjured he doesn't provide that sort of dynamic. In a previous post I compared the situation to 1998 when Willie O was retiring and Kefu was coming up the ladder, they provided a that totally different dynamic.

The Pooper is a totally different dynamic again and if the Wallabies go with that and do not want the Dominator option at all then I'd suggest that McMahon is the right option over McCalman.

So if the Wallabies start with the Pooper and a dominator is wanted on the bench who fills the role if not Palu?

This isn't about individuals it is about the dynamic of the side as a whole, and if I can go back to my previous comparison that so stirred the pot, it is why Gregan was in my view selected for two seasons past his best even though he was slow to the breakdown, slow with the pass and took two or three steps before every pass. He clearly wasn't the best 9 in the country on a purely individual basis, but as part of a team dynamic that is an entirely different argument.

No old wounds here Gnostic. After all, Gregan was the one being picked whether or not he warranted that. The wounds seem to be with those who think (and thought) he should have been replaced by Whittaker.

On the other point, if a dominator type of No 8 is wanted, then I would prefer Houston (or as suggested by FF (Folau Fainga'a), Timani) rather than Palu, as they offer similar skills but have more time left in the game than Cliff, and would therefore imo provide better long term reward for the Wallabies. But, clearly, Cheika doesn't see it that way. If a Pooper type of combination is wanted, then I agree that McMahon would be the logical backup to either Hooper or Pocock. If a more skillful No 8 is the goal, then when he's fit Holloway should be a shoe-in.

There, four suggestions to what I see is a problem area, and not a Brumby amongst them.

 

[Groucho]

You said "he's on a fast track to the wallabies".he just got dropped out behind 4 other locks of a similar age and that's not including Douglas.doesn't seem like too much of a fast track...

That's ridiculous. He didn't just get dropped: he got promoted to the national setup. He didn't make the cut this time. He'll probably get capped sometime this year. How fast do you want it? This isn't a Playstation game.

I very much doubt that Coleman himself is at home having a neurotic moan into his Cornflakes. That's mainly an Internet thing.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Is this the "It's 2016 and time to reminisce" thread or the "Wallabies 2016 and onwards" thread?

 

[Dave Beat]

Is this the "It's 2016 and time to reminisce" thread or the "Wallabies 2016 and onwards" thread?

I was just going to say 2016 & backwards thread.
Gregan - to be remembered as a great player.

@Brumby Runner says Hollaway - gee that'd be to SS players Hodge & Hollaway, must be an alright comp

Yes the Loosies interest me, Fardypooper Pick themselves and given they are 80 minute type players that can also have an impact with isolated plays, what does the bench look like?

People are saying we need a second play maker with Foley, yes I now very raw, and yes he's no doubt behind Toumua & Lilo. Just for note most people are referencing Hodge because of what they've seen in Super rugby were he's played 10 - 15. Last year he carved it up in 12, and prior to that most of his rugby was in 10.

 

[fatprop]

So Lilo is on baby watch, Hunt hasn't been training ........ fark Kerevi as last man standing?

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[Viking]

So Lilo is on baby watch, Hunt hasn't been training .... fark Kerevi as last man standing?

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or Reece Hodge

 

[Viking]

People are saying we need a second play maker with Foley, yes I now very raw, and yes he's no doubt behind Toumua & Lilo. Just for note most people are referencing Hodge because of what they've seen in Super rugby were he's played 10 - 15. Last year he carved it up in 12, and prior to that most of his rugby was in 10.

I agree with Bob Dwyers comments that a second playmaker isn't as important against England. I still see our backs being more dynamic. Foley is getting better as a playmaker too.

Kerevi or Hodge seems to be the most likely given injuries and availability. I honestly can't wait to see how either perform.

 

[Joe Blow]

There is no way Cheika is waiting on Lealifanos baby to usher him into the starting side a day or two ahead of the test. He has his backline and is working with them as we speak.
Lilo may be on the bench as a back up 10/12/goalkicker but thats about it for him due to circumstances beyond everyones control.

I fucking hope its Kerevi and TK in the centres.

 

[wamberal]

I think Folau at 12 is a definite option. Hodge should not be thrown into his first international just yet. Anyway, he would need to bide his time on the bench.


Kerevi ditto. So the last man standing is Folau.


Not an ideal solution, but he is a complete footballer and will not make silly mistakes or be rattled under pressure.


Hunt or DHP at 15.

 

[fatprop]

or Reece Hodge

It would be a miraculous moment and I reckon he is more likely to be a bench option a best.

"If" Hunt is training, I would assume he will start at 12 before Hodge; and if Lilo gets to camp soon, I expect him to start before either

 

[Intruder]

The Wallabies are back at Ballymore and I can report that Israel Folau is the front runner to wear 12. Lealiifano atm will be the only one to come in at 12 after his wife gives birth. Another surprise is that Hodge is on the wing with Horne on the other.

 

[wamberal]

I doubt that too much can be read into what happens in public.



Until the teams are announced, nothing is certain.

 

[Sully]

Perhaps we should try to limit team selection news to the match thread.

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