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The Tom Carter incident

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waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
You could write a novel in the time it'd take for Carter to run a ring around you.

Your right, that's why he runs through.

Last night.

Passing - check
Running -check
Defense - check
Try's - check check
Stepping - check
Kicking - check.

Pretty much a great all round game. The guy is fantastic, to ridicule him is to show ones ignorance.
 

twenty seven

Tom Lawton (22)
After reading the comments about Carter - for the supporters of Carter and those who support his shitty little antics and shit stirring on the field ( pussy that he is) , if it were Quade you would be calling for the noose - Oh, thats right, you already have!!!
If he had pulled his head in and played the full 80 instead of trying to rub salt into Digby's so called wound of 'losing', he might have been a winner instead of loser. And, to my mind, thats why he is not a Wallaby.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
After reading the comments about Carter - for the supporters of Carter and those who support his shitty little antics and shit stirring on the field ( pussy that he is) , if it were Quade you would be calling for the noose - Oh, thats right, you already have!!!
If he had pulled his head in and played the full 80 instead of trying to rub salt into Digby's so called wound of 'losing', he might have been a winner instead of loser. And, to my mind, thats why he is not a Wallaby.
the selector's had a premonition?
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
@twenty seven:-
To argue that he is not a bad player is not the same as endorsing his behaviour, such as he demonstrated with Ioane, and to lump everyone who feels he is not a bad player as some nebulous "you", who would, or had called for Quade's head is a bad generalisation. I didn't like Quade's carry on in 2011 / RWC, but that isn't to say I think he didn't deserve to be picked. I don't like Carter's carry on either - it adds nothing to the game.
You feel Carter is not a Wallaby because he acts like that, or didn't play the full 80; some players are Wallabies despite their acting similarly, or dropping their game short of the the final whistle.
Interesting counterpoint, no?
 

Wallatahs

Allen Oxlade (6)
He's a great no-frills Super Rugby centre and rarely puts in a poor performance (the stats back this up). Foley's starting to worry me if he would rather play Hangers / Barnes at 10 and 12, over Barnes / Carter.
That said - I don't expect to ever see Carter wear gold.
 

Scott Allen

Trevor Allan (34)
If you’ve seen my posts on this site, it will be obvious to you that I find the statistics of rugby interesting. Whilst they are interesting, attempts to justify selections based on statistics is, in my opinion, wrong (can’t say what I really think or I’ll have to ban myself). I see so many problems with the use of statistics in this thread.

The first problem with using statistics is the accuracy of the information between the various sources. For example, Moses used statistics from Fox showing Fainga'a missed 28 tackles in the season whereas Sports Data and Rugby Stats both show Fainga'a missed 21 tackles. The Fox statistics quoted show Carter missed 14 tackles; Sports Data showed he only missed 9 whereas Rugby Stats shows he missed 13. Which numbers are more accurate? I don’t know but there are differences in just about every statistic used in this thread dependent on which source you use.

The second problem is which statistic is more important. Take attack for example where Moses used tries, try assists and tackle busts as a basis to say Carter is a better attacker than Tapuai. However, if you look at number of carries per line break, Carter made 104 carries for 11 line breaks (a line break every 9.5 carries or every 115 minutes he played) whereas Tapuai made 63 carries for 8 line breaks (a line break every 7.9 carries or every 85 minutes he played). You could argue that Tapaui is therefore the more penetrative attacker and that line breaks are more valuable than tackle busts. Different people will value these statistics differently but no one measure is the absolute way to measure performance.

The third problem with using statistics to justify who’s the better player is that comparing a player in one team to a player in another team ignores the way each team plays and therefore what a player is asked to do in a team. Tom Carter obviously plays the crash ball role and takes the ball into the teeth of the defence so is likely to be less effective in making line breaks compared to carries as against Tapaui who doesn’t play the same role for the Reds. How many tackles #12 is required to make is dependent on how the opposition plays.

The fourth problem is comparing a centre predominantly playing #12 against one predominantly playing #13. The roles are very different and are played differently by teams.

The fifth problem I see is that I doubt any high level coach selects on the basis of statistics. If that was the case, Rob Horne’s 83% tackle accuracy in the Super Rugby games he played last year should have ruled him out of contention for the Wallabies.

If you were picking a crash ball #12 with good defence for the Wallabies based on statistics alone you would have gone with Pat McCabe over Tom Carter anyway. McCabe played 1,078 minutes compared to Carter’s 1,270 in the season. McCabe averaged 11.95 metres gained every time he carried the ball in Super Rugby compared to 8.05 metres per carry for Carter and McCabe only missed 5 tackles all season compared to 9 for Carter. McCabe also made 22 line breaks, double the 11 made by Carter. (Source: Sports Data)

A coach will be aware of statistics but will make their selection based on their game plan and who best suits that game plan. If I were making the selections at #12 and #13 for the Wallabies from the players mentioned, it would be Tapaui at #12 and Horne at #13 for me (regardless of what statistics may say). If I had to select backups for Tapaui, it would be McCabe, then Fainga'a. Tom Carter would be number four on that list in my opinion – he’s a good player but I think the other choices offer more than he does.

Having said that, James O’Connor hasn’t been mentioned and would go to the top of the list for me at #12, so Carter would be number five in my opinion.

I doubt he’ll ever be picked to play for the Wallabies and I’m sure no top team will ever be picked on the basis of statistics.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Wonderful post, but I reckon he ruined the thread. Too accurate. Watching (reading?) the endless to and fro is much more humourous.

One thing I will say about Carter: he's been improving every year. He's developed more from a role player in the team to a key man in the backs.

And what is batfisted?!?!
 

BPC

Phil Hardcastle (33)
If you were picking a crash ball #12 with good defence for the Wallabies based on statistics alone you would have gone with Pat McCabe over Tom Carter anyway. McCabe played 1,078 minutes compared to Carter’s 1,270 in the season. McCabe averaged 11.95 metres gained every time he carried the ball in Super Rugby compared to 8.05 metres per carry for Carter and McCabe only missed 5 tackles all season compared to 9 for Carter. McCabe also made 22 line breaks, double the 11 made by Carter. (Source: Sports Data)

Sorry to be a pedant (you can't help it when using statistics) but why do you jump from using a per play like metres gained per carry to a gross statistic like tackles missed rather than %tackles missed? The gross tackles missed is misleading if Carter made three times as many tackles as McCabe. (I don't know the actual numbers).

I agree with your overall point. One of the most important points Alan Jones made when he was the coach was that you work out the strategy then pick the players who will fit that strategy. Obviously statistics play a role in bringing in some objectivity but they can't be the be all and end all. Sadly I think that for many years (Eddie Jones was a repeat offender) is that we picked the "best" player in a position without any sense of the overall shape of the team. I think that Deans sometimes falls into the same trap.
 

Scott Allen

Trevor Allan (34)
Why do you jump from using a per play like metres gained per carry to a gross statistic like tackles missed rather than %tackles missed? The gross tackles missed is misleading if Carter made three times as many tackles as McCabe.

Agree - both measures should be looked at - McCabe 93% accuracy and Carter 96%. The difference in percentages and the gross number in this case is so small that it's almost irrelevant.
 

twenty seven

Tom Lawton (22)
One of the interesting things watching/coaching kids in sport was always reinforcing 'coachability' and 'team ethos'. Its a team and, yes, some selections are questionable. All I am asking is, 'is he such a player'. I personally don't know anything about him except how he conducts himself on the field.
As to Quade and the World Cup - I still am in the dark as to where this 'carry on ' of Quades was. I heard, from N.Z.ers that he was great with the kids. Yes he didn't preform well but he wasn't the only one either. This crap with Ritchie was put on Quade but Ricthie was/is no saint. Great player but he does get away with crap.
What I do believe is that the A.B.'s beat us in the belief of their team and their Jersey. Could you imagine the uproar if one of them didn't turn up to a team announcement and photo shoot - especially for the World Cup! Talk about the shit hitting the fan!!!!!
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
He stepped JOC (James O'Connor), the kick he put in at the end last night was brilliant, I really dint think. No frills sums him up.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Or now that stats don't paint the WJ picture, we need to consider unmeasureables! ;)
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Or now that stats don't paint the WJ picture, we need to consider unmeasureables! ;)

With all due respect, I just posted fact ;)

If yo read my previous posts you will see I actuall said they are asked to do different things by there teams and can't be compared. I would suggest I have never changed my opinion and never have a need to due to my accuracy and unbiased judgement if the situation.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Full stop after 100% would have been enough. You lost all credibilty with the rest of the crap. Back to rugby please.


27, I'm going to give you another hour to work out the joke, then if you still havnt pm me and I will explain it for you. You sound like you can USDA jive box and a nap, chill out.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Don't mean to be a killjoy but isn't this all pretty pointless.

As long as Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor) and Cooper are fit all players mentioned are going to struggle to get time at 12. Cooper at 12 is a better option over many of those mentioned.
 
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