The Residency / Poaching Thing...

[Getwithme]

I'm still confused about the post about the members of world rugby's executive committee Bullrush because isn't a large part of your debate that no one has the right to tell someone how they feel about their heritage? I certaintly know a lot of white individuals who have a strong affiliation with their pacific island heritage.

It seems clear to me that the majority of poster believe 2 things:
a.) it's important to not devalue the eligibility requirements by allowing people to switch allegiances willy nilly and;
b.) players can have an affiliation with more than one country making it a hard decision to choose the country to represent and they should be able to represent both.

Can someone explain the 7's loophole to me? It's been ta;led about often but I've never really read into it.

I think something like a 5 year residency, 5 year wait (representing a tier 1 nation and moving to a tier 2) could work?

 

[Bullrush]

I'm still confused about the post about the members of world rugby's executive committee Bullrush because isn't a large part of your debate that no one has the right to tell someone how they feel about their heritage? I certaintly know a lot of white individuals who have a strong affiliation with their pacific island heritage.

It seems clear to me that the majority of poster believe 2 things:
a.) it's important to not devalue the eligibility requirements by allowing people to switch allegiances willy nilly and;
b.) players can have an affiliation with more than one country making it a hard decision to choose the country to represent and they should be able to represent both.

Can someone explain the 7's loophole to me? It's been ta;led about often but I've never really read into it.

I think something like a 5 year residency, 5 year wait (representing a tier 1 nation and moving to a tier 2) could work?

I'm not sure if you have read the thread but someone tried to make the case that

World rugby is made up of representatives of a lot of countries, some with white skin, some with darker skin, and you know what some had brown eyes and some had blue eyes....

My point was that World Rugby does not give equal votes to the countries with darker skin and that no-one in the Exec Committee has darker skin.

I don't really know what you're talking about when you say "white individuals who have a strong affiliation with their pacific island heritage."

To your other points:

a.) no-one has made a valid case around anything being 'devalued'. It is thrown out there as if it's a fact but there is absolutely no evidence that it's true. Also, I have not seen anyone make the case - and I certainly have not tried to - that players can 'switch allegiances willy nilly'. It has been pretty clear that it would apply for players going from Tier 1 nations to Tier 2 nations. I have said that I am OK with the current laws re: parents/grandparents/residency for eligibility but I'm open to other suggestions.

b.) yes - they should be able to represent both.

In regards to the 7's, there is currently a loophole where . player who has represented one country, can qualify to play for another country in the Olympic 7's and therefore, could qualify to play 15's for that 2nd country. I don't think anyone has done it yet in terms of playing 15's Test rugby.

 

[Braveheart81]

In regards to the 7's, there is currently a loophole where . player who has represented one country, can qualify to play for another country in the Olympic 7's and therefore, could qualify to play 15's for that 2nd country. I don't think anyone has done it yet in terms of playing 15's Test rugby.

Cooper Vuna and Tim Nanai-Williams both switched allegiance under that rule.

Vuna is the only one to play a test for both nations I believe.

 

[Bullrush]

Cooper Vuna and Tim Nanai-Williams both switched allegiance under that rule.

Vuna is the only one to play a test for both nations I believe.

I wasn't sure about TNW - did he play 7's for NZ? I could have googled it - LOL

 

[cyclopath]

Stop posting it, it's bullshit.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

ffs, who7s the idiot that started this thread? ​

#can_of_worms

No one has provided a valid reason for why players shouldn't be able to switch.

That's because the entire thread reads as if you've already decided long ago that there are no valid reasons.

Let's review:

BR: "No one has provided a valid reason for why players shouldn't be able to switch."​

​

-forum members respond with opinions and ideas as to why or why not players should or shouldnt be able to switch

BR: "No one has provided a valid reason for why players shouldn't be able to switch."​

Rinse, repeat for pages and pages of deleterious virtue signaling reaching a denouement with a huge "Yes Massa" meme implying we're all racists.

 

[Bullrush]

Stop posting it, it's bullshit.

Of course - telling Samoans that they aren't Samoan is OK.

Yeah - casual racism is OK here.

 

[cyclopath]

Of course - telling Samoans that they aren't Samoan is OK.

Yeah - casual racism is OK here.

That is not what I said, and that is painting what was said in extremely simplistic terms. I'm not really interested in getting into a debate about residency etc - I don't pretend to know enough about the issues to post with any basis. I said posting memes implying everyone else on the thread is racist is bullshit. Which it is. Please desist. And try to have the debate with less personal invective. Please.
And that goes for everyone.

 

[Bullrush]

ffs, who7s the idiot that started this thread? ​

#can_of_worms
That's because the entire thread reads as if you've already decided long ago that there are no valid reasons.

Let's review:

BR: "No one has provided a valid reason for why players shouldn't be able to switch."​

​

-forum members respond with opinions and ideas as to why or why not players should or shouldnt be able to switch

BR: "No one has provided a valid reason for why players shouldn't be able to switch."​

Rinse, repeat for pages and pages of deleterious virtue signaling reaching a denouement with a huge "Yes Massa" meme implying we're all racists.

Actually, the ONLY 'reason' that has been given is the opinion that it devalues the jersey. Again, no proof or evidence provided for this claim, just an assertion that it is so. I say that Michael Jones, Frank Bunce and Brad Thorn have all worn multiple jerseys and I'm curious to know if any of them devalued the jersey - and which jersey! The AB jersey? The Manu Samoa jersey? The Kangaroo jersey?

And the "Yes Massa" is calling out the casual racism of telling Samoans and Pacific Islanders that they aren't actually what they are. I didn't say or imply that you are all racists and that is a bullshit call. The meme was posted specifically as a response to the absolute ignorance of dictating to people who they are.

Who here would tell Ma'a Nonu or any of these other players to their face that they aren't Samoan/Tongan/Fijian? Who would go up to them and say 'You're Kiwi - not Samoan.'

Or go down to a local game where any PI boys are playing and tell them they aren't Samoan etc.

 

[Show-n-go]

Who here would tell Ma'a Nonu or any of these other players to their face that they aren't Samoan/Tongan/Fijian? Who would go up to them and say 'You're Kiwi - not Samoan.'

Or go down to a local game where any PI boys are playing and tell them they aren't Samoan etc.

Easily and without hesitation - unless they are dual citizens it’s factually accurate

 

[Bullrush]

Easily and without hesitation - unless they are dual citizens it’s factually accurate

If they are dual - then they are Samoan.

 

[fatprop]

Actually, the ONLY 'reason' that has been given is the opinion that it devalues the jersey. Again, no proof or evidence provided for this claim, just an assertion that it is so. I say that Michael Jones, Frank Bunce and Brad Thorn have all worn multiple jerseys and I'm curious to know if any of them devalued the jersey - and which jersey! The AB jersey? The Manu Samoa jersey? The Kangaroo jersey?

And the "Yes Massa" is calling out the casual racism of telling Samoans and Pacific Islanders that they aren't actually what they are. I didn't say or imply that you are all racists and that is a bullshit call. The meme was posted specifically as a response to the absolute ignorance of dictating to people who they are.

Who here would tell Ma'a Nonu or any of these other players to their face that they aren't Samoan/Tongan/Fijian? Who would go up to them and say 'You're Kiwi - not Samoan.'

Or go down to a local game where any PI boys are playing and tell them they aren't Samoan etc.

The same argument is used by racists to suggest that he/she of "x" heritage can never be Australian

 

[Derpus]

It does feel like a waste for players like Sopoaga to be sitting on the pine.

Perhaps where a person actually has dual citizenship and has already been capped for one - they can make a one time switch to the other, but it's permanent.

I don't think ancestry holds much weight. You have to draw a line somewhere and being a citizen of a country is not really about ancestry.

 

[Show-n-go]

It does feel like a waste for players like Sopoaga to be sitting on the pine.

Perhaps where a person actually has dual citizenship and has already been capped for one - they can make a one time switch to the other, but it's permanent.

I don't think ancestry holds much weight. You have to draw a line somewhere and being a citizen of a country is not really about ancestry.

For sure it is a bit of a waste

I guess my problem also stems from, there would be some (as an example) Samoan guys out there who would give their life to pull on that blue jersey, are about to get selected then "nah sorry 103 test player Nonu comes in for 2-3 years to take the spot" what sort of message is that sending to guys who have Samoa as their first choice?

At some point these tier 1 players made a conscious decision to represent that nation, whether it was for love of that country or for financial gain, the tier 2 nation was not their first choice and they shouldn't be able to turn around after either no longer being good enough to make a tier 1 side or raking in the dough and now wanting to represent the country they actually want to.

Would the national team benefit from having these players play for them? Of course! but at what cost? Integrity of the sport, alienating players who have the Tier 2 nations as their first choice, it's also a band-aid solution to a bigger problem.

We need to make playing for these nations more appealing from the get go so when eligible players have to make a decision they don't have to worry so much about money or career development, not bastardizing the eligibility rules for a quick fix. More fixtures for Tier 2 nations, policing of club contracts barring players from playing international footy, assisted funding from World Rugby, policies around gate takings when Tier 1 nations play Tier 2, policies around Tier 2 teams getting home fixtures.

If high profile players want to help out Tier 2 nations, volunteer, become ambassadors, coaches etc represent that way to bring through the next generation who can/want to rep that Tier 2 nation

 

[Braveheart81]

The point is often raised that Samoa and Tonga etc. would be stronger if their best players weren't forced to sit out of test rugby by their clubs.

Can anyone point to some players who would be in the best 23 for these countries that didn't go to the RWC and aren't injured etc?

I feel like a lot of the previous issues where clubs were making it difficult for players to play for their countries has been eased by the frequency with which almost all test teams use regulation 9 to have players released to play for them.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

The point is often raised that Samoa and Tonga etc. would be stronger if their best players weren't forced to sit out of test rugby by their clubs.

Can anyone point to some players who would be in the best 23 for these countries that didn't go to the RWC and aren't injured etc?

I feel like a lot of the previous issues where clubs were making it difficult for players to play for their countries has been eased by the frequency with which almost all test teams use regulation 9 to have players released to play for them.

Nemani Nadolo?

 

[Braveheart81]

Nemani Nadolo?

He retired from international rugby at the start of the year. His last test for Fiji was June last year.

I'm not convinced he retired from international rugby due to pressure from his club. He's 31, has had injury issues in the last year or two, Fiji now have younger, better wingers available and I believe he also has a young family.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

He retired from international rugby at the start of the year. His last test for Fiji was June last year.

I'm not convinced he retired from international rugby due to pressure from his club. He's 31, has had injury issues in the last year or two, Fiji now have younger, better wingers available and I believe he also has a young family.

Montpellier have deep pockets and the Top 14 teams have form for this (as their competition runs concurrently with the RWC)

Maybe not as a first choice left winger but a fair portion of his caps have also come at 12.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

It does feel like a waste for players like Sopoaga to be sitting on the pine.

Perhaps where a person actually has dual citizenship and has already been capped for one - they can make a one time switch to the other, but it's permanent.

I don't think ancestry holds much weight. You have to draw a line somewhere and being a citizen of a country is not really about ancestry.

Sopoaga (who's NZ-born BTW) made a choice to go overseas with only a few AB caps behind him but would be earning far more now than had he never been an AB.

 

[Derpus]

Sopoaga (who's NZ-born BTW) made a choice to go overseas with only a few AB caps behind him but would be earning far more now than had he never been an AB.

Setting aside specific examples (because I didn't check), what's your point?