The Ongoing Tragedy of the Waratahs

[Sully]

I realise you're losing them to other provinces but why aren't you finding them first. We have lost O'Connor and Pocock and a heap more but I think we are now improving our talent identification. Should NSW be doing the same?

 

[Sully]

And to France.

There is lots of complaining about Burgess. Are you really sad to see him go?

 

[qwerty51]

I'm quite filthy that we lost McCalman, Inman, Jenkins. I think they are obvious potential Super rugby players; no idea why the NSWRU didn't try hard enough to keep them.

 

[cyclopath]

There is lots of complaining about Burgess. Are you really sad to see him go?

I don't think there's a lot of complaining, but I actually think he is a very good player, who could be better "managed / coached". McKibben might be promising, but he is a rung below. Burgess' positives far outweigh his negatives.
We have lost a lot of good players to different places, mostly through oversight by management I think. I think there is less patience among players to learn their craft at senior level, and too much "If you don't appreciate me enough, I'm off overseas". They're professionals, so fair enough. It does mean we lose players from all provincial areas who dilute the strength of Aus rugby, not just NSW.

 

[Sully]

Being Professional doesn't preclude loyalty. I am still shitty with Barnes and Sharpe for leaving Qld. Even though Barnes leaving clearly was the best thing to happen up here for a long time.

 

[cyclopath]

Being Professional doesn't preclude loyalty. I am still shitty with Barnes and Sharpe for leaving Qld. Even though Barnes leaving clearly was the best thing to happen up here for a long time.

No, it doesn't. But in this age, they make their living solely from rugby, pretty much, so more likely to go where the best coin is. Of course there will be exceptions.

 

[Sully]

Definitely, Waugh for starters is very loyal

 

[cyclopath]

Definitely, Waugh for starters is very loyal

Who else would want him, though? Although, earlier in his career, he would have gone down a treat in Europe.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

To me the Tahs, unfortunately like a lot of NSW teams, have an attitude or perception of arrogance about them. Because they are from NSW they are "better" than others. The thing is though, definitely on paper, they often are better than most other sides. But they can't bring this to the field. Perhaps it is with this expectation that is affecting them. They do not look like they enjoy themselves...the pressure of performing overwhelms them. And also once their mental strength of superiority gets tested and found wanting they become aimless. The waratahs appear to be a sporting team whose desire to win is overwhelming and paramount..they should be a team that goes out to play rugby as their main aim. Winning will follow. (If that makes sense).

The Waratahs can easily be a good side. Or I should say a much better side. Unfortunately that is the problem.

Speaking soley on the arrogance/attitude part thats not entirely accurate. I would say that it is a mentality that is found often in teams that are made up of mostly sydneysiders and based in sydney rather than NSW teams in general. I know not all sydney orientated people/teams are the same but it is a trend I've noticed in a number of different rep sport comps I've been involved with over the years where our NSW Country teams have had to face teams from Sydney. Personally, I like it because it adds spice and passion to the contest within teams from Sydney and country NSW. The only annoying part I suppose is that people from outside NSW cant seem to tell that there is a big difference in mentality between people in city sydney and country NSW and end up branding all of NSW based on the attitude of SOME sydney teams.

Cross has never been any good. He was a schoolboy bully in rugby - on the field, that is - and may have developed into international standard had he not defected to Loig.

I dont buy this Tah sense of entitlement shizen, either. Its outdated. The Tahs have not had any recent success to feel entitled, re rugby. As people, they probably come off appearing entitled as they are in the majority, pampered Sydney GPS whiteboys with a spot of CAS to fray the white collar a little and a couple of PIs to keep it real.

The NSWRU/ARU needs to stop being so conservative and visionless and open the pursetrings to 18 year old rugby players whio are going off to league. How good may have Tom Learoyd Lahrs or Greg Inglis have been in rugby had they been trained up in the sport from an early age instead of tryoing to (re) learn lke Dell, Rogers and Cross in their late 20's??? Chess and checkers....

Agreed.

 

[rookie]

Just thinking about the lack of excellent 10s... I'm not sure if this is right, but it feels like there is an incessant drive at the tahs to unearth the next big thing that seems to undermine player development. School boy geniuses signed as 18 year olds and thrust into the limelight of super rugby, a tough sink or swim against hardened professionals. And alongside this, it seems like the tahs are all too ready to pull the plug on the experiment when it doesn't pay immediate dividends. Obviously there's the problem of competition from league for the best young schoolboys, but even when they go to league these players rarely play first grade in their first couple of seasons. This might be a little of the mark... what do you guys think?

Actually, Steve Larkham is an example of a player who absolutely did not arrive in Super Rugby as a pre-packaged world cup winning fly-half. He played club rugby for Wests in Canberra for a few years, was a part of the Kookaburras and then the Brumbies at fullback (where, apparently, he had an early reputation for not passing the ball to blatant overlaps) and then finally made the transition to fly half not for the Brumbies, but for the Wallabies, when he was already an established super player.

And Cooper, despite being a case of a player thrust into professional rugby at a young age, arguably had the time and space to develop at that level since the reds were bad enough in his early years that his poor performances were just par for the course. Also, Phil Mooney showed remarkable patience and foresight in sticking with him despite his fairly random rugby early on. Do you think Cooper would have been kept on at the tahs? I mean after one of his first games there was a youtube video of his worst mistakes set to the theme music from Benny Hills.

Perhaps a related issue, then, is the demand for immediate results. Think Edmonds, Donnelly, MacKay, Halangahu et al., who were all tried and discarded after a few games each season. While none of these players are Steve Larkham or Quade Cooper, with consistent game time they could have been very good for the tahs, particularly when surrounded by other strong players. I mean the best backline play the tahs have put together over the last few seasons was during the second half of 2009 I think, when Halangahu was at 10 for 8 consecutive games. He played very astute football. He gave them a good mix between field position, direct play, and releasing the star players outside him. But Halangahu has hardly started a game since then, Barnes was always on the way in after he was signed - so Halangahu is always stuck with one off, do or die performances, with no consistent rugby under his belt. Clearly he had a poor game against the Crusaders, but this was his first outing after a major layoff with injury - I think a steadier hand might have taken that into consideration and stuck with him for a bit. Particularly since he is clearly a better ten than Beale....

Anyways, just some initial thoughts. Are there better explanations out there? All the posts so far have addressed the general malaise at the tahs, so I thought I’d get the ball rolling on this angle of the Gnostic’s post.

 

[ChargerWA]

There have been a few mentions of the way the Force (and other teams to a lesser extent) have stolen away promising young players from the Tahs academy and NSW club teams.

It almost seems that one of the Force's on field weaknesses is one of their off field strengths. A young new south welshman probably looks up at the Tahs and sees 20 blokes ahead of him, then looks West and see's a weak academy, small club comp and a small training squad and feel they are looking at the veritable land of oppourtunity to get noticed.

If promising young player retention is one of the Tahs key problems, their first action should be to make sure that their talent scouts and coaches are out having face time with these young guys, and reasuring them that they are in line to get a shot at the big time if they keep up the good work. Throwing your all at a young fella trying to keep him as he is on the way out the door is too late. They need to beat the other clubs to the punch and have these guys sewn up before they come sniffing.

 

[Groucho]

There have been a few mentions of the way the Force (and other teams to a lesser extent) have stolen away promising young players from the Tahs academy and NSW club teams.

It almost seems that one of the Force's on field weaknesses is one of their off field strengths. A young new south welshman probably looks up at the Tahs and sees 20 blokes ahead of him, then looks West and see's a weak academy, small club comp and a small training squad and feel they are looking at the veritable land of oppourtunity to get noticed.

If promising young player retention is one of the Tahs key problems, their first action should be to make sure that their talent scouts and coaches are out having face time with these young guys, and reasuring them that they are in line to get a shot at the big time if they keep up the good work. Throwing your all at a young fella trying to keep him as he is on the way out the door is too late. They need to beat the other clubs to the punch and have these guys sewn up before they come sniffing.

But how can they possibly all be up for a shot? If they can count they'll quickly realise there are only one or two spots for twenty hopefuls.

 

[lincoln]

1. Grumbles used to make a living out of highlighting the players NSW let go - my suggestion to these people is come contract time they propose their list of 32 players for the squad (with total salary stated) and then after a couple of years we can see how good they were at keeping the right players.
2. Maybe the young guys see a more progressive environment in WA/Vic where the "rock apes" don't rule the roost - reminds me of the line "if it ain't broke don't fix it". NSW's culture will not improve until a certain extremely senior player retires.

 

[Alex-A]

I actualy agree with the majority of posts on on this thread. But people dont seem to get that that super rugby is a tough tournament. And the Tahs succes as a whole over the last few years has been ok. If you look at the average finishing position of each of the super 14 teams (regular season) over the last 6 years you'll see that tahs fans have had it pretty good.
1 saders= 2.3
2 bulls = 3.5
3 WARATAHS = 4.6 (includes the disaster of 13th place in 2007!!!)
4 canes = 4.8
5 sharks = 6
6 Brumbies = 6.3
7 Chiefs = 6.5
8 blues = 6.83
9 stormers = 7.8
10 highlanders = 10
10 force = 10.0 (joint with highlanders. mean average taken over 5 years)
12 Reds = 11
13 cheetahs = 11.6 ( mean average over 5 years)
14 Lions = 12.6

3rd place..... Not bad
NSW fans are SO quick to complain, we have to recognise the fact that this tournament has plenty of quality teams and we aren't going to walk all over everyone. Its just not realistic, losses are to be exected. Its arrogant to think that the Tahs are so mighty that booing was acceptable after the cheetahs loss. Its disrespectful to the cheetahs, and potentially damaging the the Tahs team culture and mental belief.

Anyone remember midway through the 2008 season? Link had been informed that he was to leave the Tahs at the end of the season and evryone was unhappy with the performances. Well by the end of the season the Tahs had made the final,finished 2nd in the regular season, were OZ team of the year and Link was OZ coach of the year. People need to relax on the judgement and lower their high levels of expectation. Especially in NSW.

Internal problems within each teams' camp shouldn't be suggested by people who simply don't know. I'm the first to admit i dont know the teams day to day environment. but ill will try and have patience before i start blaming/ booing them! Ill blame the reff or McCaw usually!!!
People ask why NSW doesnt have a world class 10 or is currently fielding palyers like Ryan Cross? or why the saffers and Kiwis are more succesfull?? It to a large extent comes down to the publics' love for League/ AFL which dilutes our playing stock, or not having and equivalent to ITM or Currie Cup to help showcase and develop top quality, new players.

 

[jay-c]

Anyone remember midway through the 2008 season? Link had been informed that he was to leave the Tahs at the end of the season and evryone was unhappy with the performances. Well by the end of the season the Tahs had made the final,finished 2nd in the regular season, were OZ team of the year and Link was OZ coach of the year. People need to relax on the judgement and lower their high levels of expectation. Especially in NSW.

while link is a fantastic coach now it was not all roses at the tahs while he was there> i remember thinking many of his decisions were rubbish> just a few
1- backline play was crap and unimaginative- years and years of boring rugby which drove away the fans
2- his persistence with shit players like berne, norton knight, sheehan etc
3- he dumped burke who went on to play some fantastic rugby in england for a few more years
4-woeful game plans in the finals appearances- no plan b
5- loss of many players who went on to become stars for other provinces

 

[Reddy!]

There is lots of complaining about Burgess. Are you really sad to see him go?

I thought Burgess played a rubbish game last night. I wish him well, but I don't think anyone is really that sad to see him leave.

 

[Reddy!]

The Brumbies are aiming at finishing this year as their worst ever... at worst the Tahs will just miss out on a playoff spot...

At worst? At worst the Tahs are going to be down there with the Brumbies. I really am not kidding either.

 

[ChargerWA]

But how can they possibly all be up for a shot? If they can count they'll quickly realise there are only one or two spots for twenty hopefuls.

In WA there aren't twenty hopefuls, there are 5. Makes it easier for the cream to rise to the top.

 

[Pmenadue]

Spot on!

All Waratahs supporters are have an unwarranted sense of self importance. Phil Waugh's post- match interview says it all.

Could not agree more. Waratahs think they are entitled to it.

Never heard of being gracious losers.

 

[Slim 293]

Could not agree more. Waratahs think they are entitled to it.

Never heard of being gracious losers.

I don't think a lot of people have heard of being gracious victors either...