Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Yes indeed Charger. This is a fact that can be verfied if any doubt my veracity by other regular and not so regular posters on this bored.
The Ongoing Tragedy of the Waratahs
- Thread starter Gnostic
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Yes indeed Charger. This is a fact that can be verfied if any doubt my veracity by other regular and not so regular posters on this bored.
louie
Desmond Connor (43)
Gnostic, my theory (this more to with Australia rugby by can apply to the tahs) is that most of the development of players is focused on physical not skills. Players don't have the skills they used to. I remember someone (think it was an Ella bro) once saying "if a player can't pass the ball when they get to acad/pro level we don't have time to help them". Why is my question.
Reddy!
Bob Davidson (42)
I can't stand people who post arrogant nonsense either, tsk tsk.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Their best 10 since Super rugby began was a Canberran...
Anyways, has the Tahs season been worse than the Brumbies?
The Tahs are underperforming...
The Brumbies completely imploded at the start of the season... and THEN the injuries hit just to rub it in...
The Brumbies are aiming at finishing this year as their worst ever... at worst the Tahs will just miss out on a playoff spot...
vidiot
John Solomon (38)
Sometimes it takes a complete implosion to go forwards.
Players and staff who aren't up for the challenge move on or are moved on, those that stay have a level of commitment and desperation for success, and there is a momentum to be had on the way up from the lowest nadir.
The Tahs have not been woeful, results wise, in the sense of finishing last or ever looking like easybeats (reds-style!), they are usually in the mix through the season, but if there is a Tahs game - a way of playing the game the way there is a recognizable crusaders, bulls or stormers game, and recognizable even a couple of years on - it is not complete, or consistently applied. I really though it might be on the way after the first two games this season.
Players and staff who aren't up for the challenge move on or are moved on, those that stay have a level of commitment and desperation for success, and there is a momentum to be had on the way up from the lowest nadir.
The Tahs have not been woeful, results wise, in the sense of finishing last or ever looking like easybeats (reds-style!), they are usually in the mix through the season, but if there is a Tahs game - a way of playing the game the way there is a recognizable crusaders, bulls or stormers game, and recognizable even a couple of years on - it is not complete, or consistently applied. I really though it might be on the way after the first two games this season.
Quit with the generalisations. Make a contribution that adds something, not something to just try and inflame an argument.
No4918
John Hipwell (52)
This implosion has some way to go. The only players and stars leaving are the ones that are capable of helping with a turnaround. Beale and Burgess anyone?? Sure Drew & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will be there next year and while both are great players they are not the players the Tahs need. Both play too wide and will see too little ball to create the chances that are needed to score tries in this comp. Has it not been proven to them year after year that it takes more to win a title than a first rate pack.
You have a good point. In Ella's day, good forwards were just big, strong blokes, who had learned the hard way to scrum, ruck, maul and so on. They didn't play as link players (mostly) but did what they did pretty well. Backs had to be fast, be able to pass and catch, run some moves, kick well and hopefully tackle sometimes. They mostly weren't gym-built, and everyone had a day job. In short, they got to this level with their skill set from early days.
Now, players have to be more. They have to be 1500m runners, and 60m sprinters, they have to be bigger and bigger to either cope with the big guy trying to tackle them, or stop the big guy running at them. Yes, they have skills, but they are no longer enough. Who would have picked a 12 or 13 in Ella's day who never passed - we have plenty of them now, in some part because that's how coaches want to play the game. So now, a less skilled player who is hard as nails and very fit can get a long way.
I guess what I'm saying is that it has branched out beyond just the different skills of each position. A different game, in short.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
Burgess and Beale are huge losses. The Tahs face the unfortunate prospect of withdrawing further into their "bad" game, where is far too passive to be competitive in modern rugby. Who they bring into the team next year is crucial. Kingston looks a real prospect on the wing. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has to play at 13 or maybe 12. Barnes has to be instructed to play a more aggressive game in attack. McKibbin will do well. Horne needs to stay fit.
But it is the forwards who need to turn themselves around. They are huge, and dominant at scrum time against almost all teams, but they need much more aggression at the breakdown, and much more aggression generally. Given their size and athletic ability they should be intimidating teams like the Saffas used to do, instead of struggling to gain parity. I see that as the new coach's main task.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Interesting that nobody has commented on why the Tahs haven't developed a decent 10 in 15 years of Pro Rugby. The last top grade 10 was Scotty Bowen and before him in the amateur era David Knox. There have been contenders who should have been given a run and developed such as Dan Parks and Chris Malone, given the territory game the Tahs have played for the large part of the Pro era.
My points may have been lost, no matter who the coaches and how they have previously coached teams nothing seams to change at the Tahs. Why?
For example the Woodies coached by Hickey played a very balanced game with some phenominal attacking plays. Where has all ths gone? How has the game developed since he took over from Link? What factors prevent their game developing?
The blow by Waugh regarding the referee against the Reds is a symptom of the problem IMO. It ignores the fact that they bashed the line again and again for nearly a 1/4 of the game with no idea of what to do differently. It was no different under Link. I return to the comment by Spiro - "The Tahs are not coachable" - I ask Why?
My points may have been lost, no matter who the coaches and how they have previously coached teams nothing seams to change at the Tahs. Why?
For example the Woodies coached by Hickey played a very balanced game with some phenominal attacking plays. Where has all ths gone? How has the game developed since he took over from Link? What factors prevent their game developing?
The blow by Waugh regarding the referee against the Reds is a symptom of the problem IMO. It ignores the fact that they bashed the line again and again for nearly a 1/4 of the game with no idea of what to do differently. It was no different under Link. I return to the comment by Spiro - "The Tahs are not coachable" - I ask Why?
Elfster
Alex Ross (28)
To me the Tahs, unfortunately like a lot of NSW teams, have an attitude or perception of arrogance about them. Because they are from NSW they are "better" than others. The thing is though, definitely on paper, they often are better than most other sides. But they can't bring this to the field. Perhaps it is with this expectation that is affecting them. They do not look like they enjoy themselves...the pressure of performing overwhelms them. And also once their mental strength of superiority gets tested and found wanting they become aimless. The waratahs appear to be a sporting team whose desire to win is overwhelming and paramount..they should be a team that goes out to play rugby as their main aim. Winning will follow. (If that makes sense).
The Waratahs can easily be a good side. Or I should say a much better side. Unfortunately that is the problem.
The Waratahs can easily be a good side. Or I should say a much better side. Unfortunately that is the problem.
How is that the Waratahs forwards only seem to play with any agro when they play another Australian side??? The difference is unbelievable. They play the Crusaders and Blues and look like lost scared children but then turn up against the likes of the Reds, Rebels and Brumbies and decide to manhandle, bludgeon and intimidate. What the hell is that all about?? It's like they lose their manhood when they check their passports at Auckland airport.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Gnostic: whatever the team-love factors that provoke inevitable reactions, your post here was an excellent, thought-stimualting piece IMO, and, whilst you are provocative as we all know (and love ;-) ), you obviously think a great deal about the game, its leaders, the players, and the basis for your assessments, which is precisely what a code needs in its fans in order to refresh, self-critique and scale greater heights.
I am on record as saying that a central problem for Aus rugby in the last 7+ years has been another kind of tragedy (for development of the code overall), namely, it has really only been the Tahs that have got near the S14 Finals on a sustained, consistent basis. Compare and contrast with NZ and SA that have typically had at least 2 top S14 teams credibly vying for places, and, healthily, these top 2 (or 3) have varied as to who they were. I have said, and say again: for the soundness of our code, we must have at least two Aus S15 teams nearly every year being excellent enough for one to get to the Finals, and/or 2 to get near to them (the new format will help with that quest, indirectly).
Having one team only that, year upon year, is the only real S14 contender is simultaneously bad for both (a) the development of the total Aus code fan and player base and (b) bad for that dominant team's culture and evolution. This is but one reason why the QRU's and ACTRU's (wholly avoidable) yet serious declines since 2004 have been so demonstrably reckless and spoiling for the greater health of the Aus rugby code.
Just as it did with the Australian cricket team, entrenched dominance typically brings arrogance, a sense of enduring entitlement to superiority, and, worst of all, gradual ossification for the capacity for self-critique and objective regeneration. Some form of decline - subtle or dramatic - without appropriate reflection inevitably follows.
I said to rugby friends in 2007: the entire QRU culture and management was rotten to the core (and a derivate of same was visible in the then Reds). Whilst nowhere near as serious, I see features of bad culture within the 2011 Tahs that I sense have been building for a number of years and are now coming to a kind of crescendo, for example only:
- that massive 'flop' vs the Cheetahs; that was not just an 'off day', something is seriously wrong with the inner motivation and team psychology for that type of 'non participation' for all of 80 in a home game, and similar could be said of the inexplicable 'turn off' in H1 v Blues, and the obvious decline of the team's consistent intensity since Rnd 2;
- the seeming fact that the team is simply incapable of managing on-fleld focus and intensity unless Phil W is there with the right instructions; the implication is that the team's inner psychology is too fragile and tenuous to motivate themselves for themselves;
- the manifest abuse of TPN's health and long-term well-being; this implies a combination of ruthlessness and desperation at the irresponsible expense of the one the team's genuine greats, what type of team values and ethics does this expose?
- Phil W's graceless and Ref-blaming closing remarks after the Reds' win. My point re that here is not the 'sporting spirit' one or such like, rather it showed a bitterness, an entitlement to perceived superiority in a leader and must be a signal to all the team as to values and self-honesty, in that it was neither fully honest, nor close to objective. This does not inculcate a healthy team culture or encourage an internal objectivity that is the bedrock of the capacity to improve.
- why does a team with NSW's excellent development resources choose to import a player like end-of-career-stage Cross to such a crucial back line position? To me, this odd choice implied a real (and unjustified) lack of faith in the whole NSW talent base and taking sound chances with home-grown timber. What message does this convey to the greater NSW home-grown talents building their legitimate hopes at the edge of the starting Tahs' 22?
So, I sense something is amiss in the modern heart of this otherwise exceptional team, and Australian rugby is the loser in that, let's be quite clear. But perhaps Gnostic, as you imply, it is a virus that has long been there, yet remains uncured, and is masked by the weight of talent, but a talent that, without this cure, can never be liberated to a moment of real fulfilment and the total creative expression that would lead to complete and consistent victories at the very top level.
I am on record as saying that a central problem for Aus rugby in the last 7+ years has been another kind of tragedy (for development of the code overall), namely, it has really only been the Tahs that have got near the S14 Finals on a sustained, consistent basis. Compare and contrast with NZ and SA that have typically had at least 2 top S14 teams credibly vying for places, and, healthily, these top 2 (or 3) have varied as to who they were. I have said, and say again: for the soundness of our code, we must have at least two Aus S15 teams nearly every year being excellent enough for one to get to the Finals, and/or 2 to get near to them (the new format will help with that quest, indirectly).
Having one team only that, year upon year, is the only real S14 contender is simultaneously bad for both (a) the development of the total Aus code fan and player base and (b) bad for that dominant team's culture and evolution. This is but one reason why the QRU's and ACTRU's (wholly avoidable) yet serious declines since 2004 have been so demonstrably reckless and spoiling for the greater health of the Aus rugby code.
Just as it did with the Australian cricket team, entrenched dominance typically brings arrogance, a sense of enduring entitlement to superiority, and, worst of all, gradual ossification for the capacity for self-critique and objective regeneration. Some form of decline - subtle or dramatic - without appropriate reflection inevitably follows.
I said to rugby friends in 2007: the entire QRU culture and management was rotten to the core (and a derivate of same was visible in the then Reds). Whilst nowhere near as serious, I see features of bad culture within the 2011 Tahs that I sense have been building for a number of years and are now coming to a kind of crescendo, for example only:
- that massive 'flop' vs the Cheetahs; that was not just an 'off day', something is seriously wrong with the inner motivation and team psychology for that type of 'non participation' for all of 80 in a home game, and similar could be said of the inexplicable 'turn off' in H1 v Blues, and the obvious decline of the team's consistent intensity since Rnd 2;
- the seeming fact that the team is simply incapable of managing on-fleld focus and intensity unless Phil W is there with the right instructions; the implication is that the team's inner psychology is too fragile and tenuous to motivate themselves for themselves;
- the manifest abuse of TPN's health and long-term well-being; this implies a combination of ruthlessness and desperation at the irresponsible expense of the one the team's genuine greats, what type of team values and ethics does this expose?
- Phil W's graceless and Ref-blaming closing remarks after the Reds' win. My point re that here is not the 'sporting spirit' one or such like, rather it showed a bitterness, an entitlement to perceived superiority in a leader and must be a signal to all the team as to values and self-honesty, in that it was neither fully honest, nor close to objective. This does not inculcate a healthy team culture or encourage an internal objectivity that is the bedrock of the capacity to improve.
- why does a team with NSW's excellent development resources choose to import a player like end-of-career-stage Cross to such a crucial back line position? To me, this odd choice implied a real (and unjustified) lack of faith in the whole NSW talent base and taking sound chances with home-grown timber. What message does this convey to the greater NSW home-grown talents building their legitimate hopes at the edge of the starting Tahs' 22?
So, I sense something is amiss in the modern heart of this otherwise exceptional team, and Australian rugby is the loser in that, let's be quite clear. But perhaps Gnostic, as you imply, it is a virus that has long been there, yet remains uncured, and is masked by the weight of talent, but a talent that, without this cure, can never be liberated to a moment of real fulfilment and the total creative expression that would lead to complete and consistent victories at the very top level.
Aussie D
Desmond Connor (43)
This has been a problem for the 'tahs since the early days of Super rugby. Back then there appeared to be a mentality amongst NSW players that if they outplayed their Australian opposite in a head-to-head tussle then they were more likely to be selected for the Wallabies.
Aussie D
Desmond Connor (43)
1 I mentioned on one of the Brumbies coaching threads a month or so ago that the Brumbies needed to have a structural audit of their organisation by external sources. The 'tahs have changed their off-field organisational structure this year (not sure if they have appointed 2 CEOs yet?) but haven't changed their coaching structure. With a new coach coming it is the perfect time of changing their team preparation and culture, hopefully a new coach will appoint a new captain (Phil only has about 2 seasons left at the most) to bring this change about. John Maxwell, the leadership guru has a saying "if you want to change the vision change the leadership".
2 When TPN went over on his neck/shoulder last night I was screaming at the tele for Hickey to take him off and not risk further/more serious injury. Hickey waited a few more scrums and TPN throwing up on the field before doing so. IMHO this a blatant breach of a coach's duty of care to his player.
3 Phil is a competitor and when losing in the manner the 'tahs did it would be hard for anyone to show grace. I'm sure that he would have regretted saying what he did and if the media had have asked him an hour later I am sure his answer would have been a lot different.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
This has been a very thoughtful thread, starting with Gnostic’s well considered analysis and rounded out, up to this point, by RedsHappy’s constructive views.
I find little to disagree with in either of these major contributions although I have a different slant on the Waratahs’ decision “to import a player like end-of-career-stage Cross”. Although he had been a Leaguie for many years at least he was a local returning home. Further he had been a Wallaby representative and sometimes a change of club can regenerate a career. This hasn’t turned out that way so far for Ryan but who was to know that at the time?
The real error to my mind was in earlier passing over Mitch Inman who was then recruited by the Force and rapidly forced their selectors into a change in position for Cross. At around 105kg Inman was about the only emerging centre in Australia who was really in the mould of those being increasingly favoured by other countries. If the Waratahs had contracted Inman they wouldn’t have needed to sign Cross.
At the same time Ben McCalman was lured from Sydney to the Force. In both 2005 and 2006 he had played Australian Schools and anyone with any sort of eye for a footballer would have seen that he was a future Wallaby. Admittedly the Waratahs had had him in their Academy system but he chose to walk away from that and go back to training with his club, from where he was quickly recruited by the Westerners.
One of the necessary conditions for a regeneration of rugby in New South Wales is a recognition that the Academy system is fundamentally flawed. I believe that the new system to be introduced next year by the ARU of having two pooled academies located in Sydney and Brisbane will probably not be much better.
What we need in our state is for the money that is being poured into the Academy to be redirected into a support system for the Premiership Clubs, providing them with basic gymnasium facilities and the services of skills and S & C coaches to develop player potential and lift standards. Clubs as Uni which can afford to provide such services themselves should not receive any of this assistance. What you would very soon have is a considerable pool of skillful, well-conditioned young players exposed to hard football every weekend.
I find little to disagree with in either of these major contributions although I have a different slant on the Waratahs’ decision “to import a player like end-of-career-stage Cross”. Although he had been a Leaguie for many years at least he was a local returning home. Further he had been a Wallaby representative and sometimes a change of club can regenerate a career. This hasn’t turned out that way so far for Ryan but who was to know that at the time?
The real error to my mind was in earlier passing over Mitch Inman who was then recruited by the Force and rapidly forced their selectors into a change in position for Cross. At around 105kg Inman was about the only emerging centre in Australia who was really in the mould of those being increasingly favoured by other countries. If the Waratahs had contracted Inman they wouldn’t have needed to sign Cross.
At the same time Ben McCalman was lured from Sydney to the Force. In both 2005 and 2006 he had played Australian Schools and anyone with any sort of eye for a footballer would have seen that he was a future Wallaby. Admittedly the Waratahs had had him in their Academy system but he chose to walk away from that and go back to training with his club, from where he was quickly recruited by the Westerners.
One of the necessary conditions for a regeneration of rugby in New South Wales is a recognition that the Academy system is fundamentally flawed. I believe that the new system to be introduced next year by the ARU of having two pooled academies located in Sydney and Brisbane will probably not be much better.
What we need in our state is for the money that is being poured into the Academy to be redirected into a support system for the Premiership Clubs, providing them with basic gymnasium facilities and the services of skills and S & C coaches to develop player potential and lift standards. Clubs as Uni which can afford to provide such services themselves should not receive any of this assistance. What you would very soon have is a considerable pool of skillful, well-conditioned young players exposed to hard football every weekend.
B
bartman
Guest
Cross has never been any good. He was a schoolboy bully in rugby - on the field, that is - and may have developed into international standard had he not defected to Loig.
I dont buy this Tah sense of entitlement shizen, either. Its outdated. The Tahs have not had any recent success to feel entitled, re rugby. As people, they probably come off appearing entitled as they are in the majority, pampered Sydney GPS whiteboys with a spot of CAS to fray the white collar a little and a couple of PIs to keep it real.
The NSWRU/ARU needs to stop being so conservative and visionless and open the pursetrings to 18 year old rugby players whio are going off to league. How good may have Tom Learoyd Lahrs or Greg Inglis have been in rugby had they been trained up in the sport from an early age instead of tryoing to (re) learn lke Dell, Rogers and Cross in their late 20's??? Chess and checkers....
I dont buy this Tah sense of entitlement shizen, either. Its outdated. The Tahs have not had any recent success to feel entitled, re rugby. As people, they probably come off appearing entitled as they are in the majority, pampered Sydney GPS whiteboys with a spot of CAS to fray the white collar a little and a couple of PIs to keep it real.
The NSWRU/ARU needs to stop being so conservative and visionless and open the pursetrings to 18 year old rugby players whio are going off to league. How good may have Tom Learoyd Lahrs or Greg Inglis have been in rugby had they been trained up in the sport from an early age instead of tryoing to (re) learn lke Dell, Rogers and Cross in their late 20's??? Chess and checkers....
Speaking as a non Tahs supporter and with no knowledge of their board or coaching structure I have noticed a few things that seem odd to me.
Phill Waugh is a fantastic leader but I cringe whenever the Tahs are within 15 metres of the opposition try line. I know that from then on the ball isn't going more than one pass from the ruck and no back will be involved with play unless they join a ruck. This single mindedness limits their play incredibly! Imagine a 5 metre Tahs scrum with quick ball to a planned move that doesn't involve the 5/8 turning it inside for Carter to bash it up?
I hate to bring the Reds into a Tahs thread but twice this year I have seen injured Reds running water to the team and showing their support. Last night I couldn't help but notice Berrick Barnes in a beautiful suit and leather shoes watching the game from the stands and thinking why aren't they using his knowledge on the field? A word here or there could have made all the difference.
I wonder at the constant buying of players. NSW has the strongest comp in the country why aren't more players being found and developed from this? I really mean this where are your players going?
I agree about Cross being a NSWer and coming home.
Phill Waugh is a fantastic leader but I cringe whenever the Tahs are within 15 metres of the opposition try line. I know that from then on the ball isn't going more than one pass from the ruck and no back will be involved with play unless they join a ruck. This single mindedness limits their play incredibly! Imagine a 5 metre Tahs scrum with quick ball to a planned move that doesn't involve the 5/8 turning it inside for Carter to bash it up?
I hate to bring the Reds into a Tahs thread but twice this year I have seen injured Reds running water to the team and showing their support. Last night I couldn't help but notice Berrick Barnes in a beautiful suit and leather shoes watching the game from the stands and thinking why aren't they using his knowledge on the field? A word here or there could have made all the difference.
I wonder at the constant buying of players. NSW has the strongest comp in the country why aren't more players being found and developed from this? I really mean this where are your players going?
I agree about Cross being a NSWer and coming home.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Our players are going to the Rebels, Force, Brumbies and some to the Reds. I agree about having the injured players run water. Waugh should've been doing that when he didn't have the leg injury.
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