The Ongoing Tragedy of the Waratahs

[waratahjesus]

Could not agree more. Waratahs think they are entitled to it.

Never heard of being gracious losers.

i dont think a waratahs team has ever felt "entitled" to anything. They play the game to win, they were dissapointed with the way the game transpired.
the reds fans talking and talking best be aware they havnt faced an nz side yet and are a far far way away from winning the comp or even being as dominant as they think they are.

i say this not as a downer, but as a nsw fan who has seen his team achieve the results the reds now are. enter the finals and come up short. its a long way from looking good half way through to winning.

as far as saying nsw retention is a problem, it is when you name players who have left and achieved. but there are only 32 spots in a team, so at any given time you have to ask is this player better than this one. does this player need 1,2 or 5 years of development, is that going to achieve us results today or in 2013. its not as simple as its put out to be, especially in a market that nsw has where an unsuccessful team = major loss of money and market share.

Qld have been lucky to keep there squad together, but they face alot of problems in the next few years and will no doubt go into a lull before building again, see australian cricket.

 

[matty_k]

I don't think a lot of people have heard of being gracious victors either...

Experienced that first hand on Queens St in Brisbane. So much so when a guy asked (quite genuinely) at a pub later what the score was I snapped at him. Thankfully a beer later all was forgiven.

I'm sure I'm probably ignorant of it but I would hope that Reds' fans when in Sydney didn't receive this kind of treatment back in rd 2.

 

[Scotty]

Experienced that first hand on Queens St in Brisbane. So much so when a guy asked (quite genuinely) at a pub later what the score was I snapped at him. Thankfully a beer later all was forgiven.

I'm sure I'm probably ignorant of it but I would hope that Reds' fans when in Sydney didn't receive this kind of treatment back in rd 2.

I honestly think that part of the issue is the nature of the game. A lot of fans came out frustrated with the lack of rugby being played in the second half. Just like soccer, when a lot of nothing happens and fans get frustrated and act badly.

 

[MrTimms]

I honestly think that part of the issue is the nature of the game. A lot of fans came out frustrated with the lack of rugby being played in the second half. Just like soccer, when a lot of nothing happens and fans get frustrated and act badly.

I honestly don't get that. I thought there was plenty going on.

Perhaps I watch Rugby for a different reason but I like to see all the different types of play. I also know that different games will have more of certain aspects, but never once did I look at the clock and wonder when it would end.

 

[Gnostic]

I actualy agree with the majority of posts on on this thread. But people dont seem to get that that super rugby is a tough tournament. And the Tahs succes as a whole over the last few years has been ok. If you look at the average finishing position of each of the super 14 teams (regular season) over the last 6 years you'll see that tahs fans have had it pretty good.
1 saders= 2.3
2 bulls = 3.5
3 WARATAHS = 4.6 (includes the disaster of 13th place in 2007!!!)
4 canes = 4.8
5 sharks = 6
6 Brumbies = 6.3
7 Chiefs = 6.5
8 blues = 6.83
9 stormers = 7.8
10 highlanders = 10
10 force = 10.0 (joint with highlanders. mean average taken over 5 years)
12 Reds = 11
13 cheetahs = 11.6 ( mean average over 5 years)
14 Lions = 12.6

3rd place..... Not bad
NSW fans are SO quick to complain, we have to recognise the fact that this tournament has plenty of quality teams and we aren't going to walk all over everyone. Its just not realistic, losses are to be exected. Its arrogant to think that the Tahs are so mighty that booing was acceptable after the cheetahs loss. Its disrespectful to the cheetahs, and potentially damaging the the Tahs team culture and mental belief.

Anyone remember midway through the 2008 season? Link had been informed that he was to leave the Tahs at the end of the season and evryone was unhappy with the performances. Well by the end of the season the Tahs had made the final,finished 2nd in the regular season, were OZ team of the year and Link was OZ coach of the year. People need to relax on the judgement and lower their high levels of expectation. Especially in NSW.

Internal problems within each teams' camp shouldn't be suggested by people who simply don't know. I'm the first to admit i dont know the teams day to day environment. but ill will try and have patience before i start blaming/ booing them! Ill blame the reff or McCaw usually!!!
People ask why NSW doesnt have a world class 10 or is currently fielding palyers like Ryan Cross? or why the saffers and Kiwis are more succesfull?? It to a large extent comes down to the publics' love for League/ AFL which dilutes our playing stock, or not having and equivalent to ITM or Currie Cup to help showcase and develop top quality, new players.

You have totally missed the whole thrust of the OP. Results, even finishing 2nd or 3rd behind excellent Crusaders sides are irrelevant to what this whole thread is about.

Look at the questions posed and try to answer them.

 

[Gnostic]

i dont think a waratahs team has ever felt "entitled" to anything. They play the game to win, they were dissapointed with the way the game transpired.
the reds fans talking and talking best be aware they havnt faced an nz side yet and are a far far way away from winning the comp or even being as dominant as they think they are.

i say this not as a downer, but as a nsw fan who has seen his team achieve the results the reds now are. enter the finals and come up short. its a long way from looking good half way through to winning.

as far as saying nsw retention is a problem, it is when you name players who have left and achieved. but there are only 32 spots in a team, so at any given time you have to ask is this player better than this one. does this player need 1,2 or 5 years of development, is that going to achieve us results today or in 2013. its not as simple as its put out to be, especially in a market that nsw has where an unsuccessful team = major loss of money and market share.

Qld have been lucky to keep there squad together, but they face alot of problems in the next few years and will no doubt go into a lull before building again, see australian cricket.

You are well known WJ for your unstilting love of the Tahs. Do not for a minute believe yourself more loyal then myself to the side. I do not however delude myself into believing dross like that in your Siggy. I have been a Tahs supporter for 30+ years, I have provided a possible hypothesis for the continued underperformance and poor modes of play the Waratahs produce can you provide a reason for it also, or somethig to rebut what I have said. Please do not quote irrelevant results, they do not explain why a team can be so totally dominant in weeks 1 and 2 and yet fail so totally to even show up in any meaningful way in Week3-10, and that is just this year. We have record losses to the Crusaders in other years, the shocker against the Stormers last year and the list goes on and on. There is no consistancy except that of their poor modes of play (see the Reds game for the most recent) and capitulations. Please propose why this is so?

 

[wamberal]

Quite simply, the Waratahs are at the centre of the largest rugby playing population in Australia. NSW produces as many top flight players as the rest of the country put together.


The only possible reason I can think of as to why the Tahs under-perform so consistently is the calibre of management in the NSWRU.


Time for the Tahs to be privatised. Get some good management on board, without vested interests (and narrow club loyalties) and watch the game take off. NSW desperately needs a winning, result-oriented, culture.

 

[#1 Tah]

I look at the tragedy of the Waratahs and be sad, and I look at the tragedy of the Brumbies, and feel better.

 

[TOCC]

the best thing for rugby in NSW would be to introduce a second professional team into the state...
In a economic/business sense I look at NSWRU and see a monopoly, a largely inefficient conglomerate who are yet to be sufficiently challenged and in turn have been reluctant to make the tough calls.

 

[Gnostic]

I am surprised nobody has picked up on the most easy and straight forward answer to the whole issue of NSWRU management. It is something that has already happened to a certain degree.

That is the structural separation of the Waratahs from the NSWRU.

 

[Jethro Tah]

I am surprised nobody has picked up on the most easy and straight forward answer to the whole issue of NSWRU management. It is something that has already happened to a certain degree.

That is the structural separation of the Waratahs from the NSWRU.

And how is that going to help Carter, Cross, etc with their catch and pass?

 

[Hawko]

I am surprised nobody has picked up on the most easy and straight forward answer to the whole issue of NSWRU management. It is something that has already happened to a certain degree.

That is the structural separation of the Waratahs from the NSWRU.

That was a real positive step this year but it won't have immediate effect. I expect to see the influence of that separation in the selection of next year's coach/coaching team and changes over time to the marketing and business plans. But that will take time to filter down through the coaching team till it gets to the player skills, 2-3 years overall I would think. It is also utterly dependant on the quality of the board and management - if that is poor then you will see no improvement at all, merely a changing of the guard.

I do not think that the Tahs overall have been as dire as your original post makes out, and I have watched and supported over the same period. I think there would be general agreement that Bob Dwyer was the sort of coach who was skills-focussed and yet his time did not win us the holy grail; indeed it coincided with the worst flogging any super team ever had except for the Bulls/Reds game. [As an aside, that game was not nearly as bad a loss as it looked - one of the great Crusader teams playing on a night where everything went exactly right.] So why didn't Bob deliver? I think the answer is he did, but just not to the level of our expectation.

Link too, was a very good coach who had his first head-coach start at the Tahs. His first tilt at the title exposed his naivety - he went into the final with the wrong gameplan and although it changed to where it needed to be late in the game the horse and armour plated rider had already bolted. His second was much better; we were leading clearly and an upset was really on when Kurtley got injured and we didn't have a suitable replacement. Luck plays a huge part in a result and it didn't go our way.

That said, I would identify some causes as to why we have fallen short over the years:

• Luck plays a huge part in any campaign. Injuries seem to strike at random, but sometimes when an abundance of key players go down, you curse the rugby gods who have deserted you. This is generally because the reserves are not up to scratch and there is not a pool of good replacements close at hand.
• The structure of NSW rugby, though the separation of the admins will help, is not conducive to the depth you need to win at this level. The Crusaders pool, with their South Island ITM teams means that there is always a pool of players coming through who are ready to step up to the next level. The Bulls and Stormers seem to have the same sort of nurseries via the Currie Cup. We have Shute, which is an inadequate preparation for the rigours of Super rugby and which is constantly being raided by other franchises. I have written elsewhere on the site that Shute needs to be split into two halves - with everyone playing everyone else while Super rugby is going on and then a scond round split into two when the Super players get back so that the top teams play each other all the time. We won't ever get the ARC back, money problems means that that is a given. So Shute has to become stronger!
• Getting the right coach has not always been primary in the minds of our administrators. Often getting a lesser coach who can be manipulated or who will always follow the head office line has pre-empted the search. Right now we have Hickey who appears to be a really nice guy that everyone likes. But we could have had Louden except that head office politics stuffed that up. Foley for mine could be good, but his UK record was not great and he is heavily forwards-focussed. The decision at the end of the season on what to do for next year will be very difficult, but of immense importance.
• Historically NSW rugby has had a history of being a running-rugby culture. QLD was always forwards-focussed. The history at some time seems to have flipped as not only the Reds side but also the players coming through schools/U20's seem to have better backs and a focus on moving the ball. The Tahs have become forwards-focussed, relying on a power game. I think the Tahs need to return to their previous culture, where running with the ball and a game based on speed and movement is the underlying philosophy.

What is needed can therefore be summed up in five requirements:

1. A running rugby culture
2. The very best available coach able to instil that culture.
3. A stronger nursery to bring new players through to the squad.
4. A better, more focussed Tah board; all focussed on developing long term high performance.
5. And an ounce of luck to see us home.

 

[Newter]

The Waratahs’ heyday was in 1991 a tour match against the visiting Welsh side. The side packed full of Wallabies and coached by a master of the art in Rod Macqueen. A 61 point flogging was handed out to an international side. From then on when have stumbled from season to season, with failure after failure. Each season dawns bright with promise and we build into the season with trials and a good start. Then comes the reality check with a flogging at the hands of a consistent side like the Crusaders or Bulls and a slow rebuilding of the confidence (of the fans) with some narrow wins and maybe a run-away score line against an easy beat. They will make the semis in Super Rugby to get trounced in a humiliation that leaves one thinking if they even deserved to be in the finals series it was so one-sided.
That pretty much sums up the 15 years of Super Rugby for the Waratahs. The faces of the players have changed over time, coaches have come and gone but the consistent underperformance has remained.
I have racked my brain to identify why this is the case. Are the players alone at fault? Is it the Coaches that are to blame? What about the much discussed NSWRU board and their well-known continual in-fighting and political manoeuvring?

Rubbish. The team has been very consistent and one of the most successful in Super rugby for the last six or seven years.

What's brought on this criticism? A few ugly losses midseason? From what I saw of both the Cheetahs and Blues games, the opposition played a high standard of rugby, and we were missing quite a few frontline players. I won't be judging the 2011 Waratahs until they get most of their troops back and approach the business end of the season.

Stop moaning about getting "flogged" by great sides. The Crusaders flog everybody. We always made them earn it against us.

 

[Gagger]

This shit will end

All Waratahs supporters are have an unwarranted sense of self importance. Phil Waugh's post- match interview says it all.

Could not agree more. Waratahs think they are entitled to it.

Never heard of being gracious losers.

Both gone, two weeks

These parochial generalisations will stop

Don't like it? - you know where Sportal is and you can fuck off to it

 

[Scotty]

I honestly don't get that. I thought there was plenty going on.

Perhaps I watch Rugby for a different reason but I like to see all the different types of play. I also know that different games will have more of certain aspects, but never once did I look at the clock and wonder when it would end.

I watch rugby to see rugby. Not players and trainers having a chat, refs having a chat and lots of lying around. I watch rugby to also see different types of play - scrums lineouts, mauls, bashing it up in the forwards, short kicks, long kicks, great defense, sweeping backline moves, wide ranging counter attack. There was way too much of some of this and not enough of other styles in that second half.

If you take the closeness of the contest away, I doubt you would find many, if any that would think the second half was better than the second.

 

[Langthorne]

I've been thinking about the playing issues mentioned, and my conclusion was (and Newter mentions it above) that there is always another team involved who are trying to undermine the performance of the Waratahs. That is the nature of competitive sport - the 'other guy' is the random element. Sometimes people say "if I performed so badly at my job I'd be sacked", but do you have someone trying to tackle you every time you approach the photocopier?

 

[Richo]

I thought this was a thread about the structure and culture of the Waratahs, not another one about the game on Saturday...

Anyway, it seems to me that something is indeed rotten in the state of Denmark. Yes, the Waratahs have been the most successful Australian team for the last six or seven years. Yes, only one team can win it every year. Yes, bad luck plays a major role. Yes, forwards play can be exciting and engaging for the tragics in the crowd. But the reality in Sydney is that building the fan base requires winning - not just being the third best team, on average, for half a decade.

I do think something is culturally wrong within NSWRU and the Waratahs. Unfortunately, changing a team's culture can be very hard. I think it takes two things: 1. Time. 2. Change in leadership and personnel. The thing is, no amount of time will fix cultural problems without a change in leadership. Much as Phil has been an incredible servant to the Waratahs, I wouldn't be sad to see a new coach bring in a new captain (and that does not mean Dean Mumm, who is symptomatic of the culture, rather than an antidote to it).

 

[TOCC]

I am surprised nobody has picked up on the most easy and straight forward answer to the whole issue of NSWRU management. It is something that has already happened to a certain degree.

That is the structural separation of the Waratahs from the NSWRU.

you are right, and to a degree there has been a 'structural' separation, but they are still both singing to the same tune, and undoubtedly are both still largely influenced by the other.

Essentially the whole situation still needs to 'mature' a bit more, i think over the next season or two that this will occur, as existing sponsorships and agreements with brokers previously negotiated by the NSWRU expire and the Waratahs negotiate there own and move forward.

Assuming they have the right people in the right positions, this will make a big difference over the next few years as the separation between the NSWRU and Waratahs grows.

 

[Richo]

you are right, and to a degree there has been a 'structural' separation, but they are still both singing to the same tune, and undoubtedly are both still largely influenced by the other.

Essentially the whole situation still needs to 'mature' a bit more, i think over the next season or two that this will occur, as existing sponsorships and agreements with brokers previously negotiated by the NSWRU expire and the Waratahs negotiate there own and move forward.

Assuming they have the right people in the right positions, this will make a big difference over the next few years as the separation between the NSWRU and Waratahs grows.

It's only a solution to half the problem if NSWRU remains a mess but the Waratahs improve. Still, that would be a big improvement over the current situation.

 

[Jnor]

You have totally missed the whole thrust of the OP. Results, even finishing 2nd or 3rd behind excellent Crusaders sides are irrelevant to what this whole thread is about.

Look at the questions posed and try to answer them.

That post might not have been to the thrust of your OP, gnostic, but it was well-considered and I thought quite relevant to the general discussion around here. Alex-A is right in saying that the Tahs have actually done reasonablly well overall since the inception of the comp and sometimes we need to step back and look at what we're talking about - they're not exactly the Lions.

Having said that, obviously there are some significant problems in tahland that need to be addressed and the aim should always be as high as possible. Dismissing considered posts out of hand is probably not the best way of encouraging good discussion, however.