The Israel Folau saga

[RugbyReg]

If we are talking about Israel Folau then stick to Israel Folau. Not world religious issues, not the Christchurch massacre, not migration panic.

Consider this a thread wide warning. Next post this way will cop a ban, as the poster with the homophobic comment has suffered.

 

[Ignoto]

I think it's a shame that a such talented athlete and a person who seems to me to be a very decent young man has put himself in this position. Regardless of where things go from here, I wish him all the best for the future.

Agree completely. I don't think there's anything malicious with Izzy and sometime down the track I'm sure an ex-player will confide in him that he played with an athlete who was gay and it'll shock Izzy.

As Reg pointed out, the Rugby Ruckus' Podcast with Dave Oliver was extremely insightful and Dave's final words demonstrates how great of a bloke he is. In a nutshell, even though he recognises Izzy's words being extremely negative for a young person, he also noted that Israel is a person himself and was worried in those 48 hours he went radio-silent.

 

[fatprop]

What if one of the current or future Wallabies is gay? Do we expect them to be able to play to the best of their ability knowing that one of their team mates believes that they are a sinner destined to go to hell?

He basically provided a list that covered pretty well everybody he plays with - yet we only seem to be concerned with one of the many segments of sin listed

 

[Kenny Powers]

Is rugby as a whole painting itself into a corner, or just heading down the road of double standards?

What do 2019 Rugby World Cup participants Namibia, Samoa and Tonga have in common?

Homosexuality is illegal in these countries.

 

[Slim 293]

Is rugby as a whole painting itself into a corner, or just heading down the road of double standards?

What do 2019 Rugby World Cup participants Namibia, Samoa and Tonga have in common?

Homosexuality is illegal in these countries.

From memory, none of those countries are governed by Rugby Australia..............

 

[RugbyReg]

He basically provided a list that covered pretty well everybody he plays with - yet we only seem to be concerned with one of the many segments of sin listed

Homosexuality being the one that’s not controllable.

 

[Kenny Powers]

From memory, none of those countries are governed by Rugby Australia......

Never mentioned Rugby Australia, in my post, it was Rugby as a whole.

Especially so given New Zealand and the UK are happy to throw their 2 cents worth and plenty of people are happy to mention the spiriit of rugby, inclusiveness etc.

 

[liquor box]

OK liquor, and does he post a lot of religious stuff?

Yes there was but that does not worry me.

I would not describe myself as a religious person, but have a passion for religions of all types, its history and beliefs and then also its influence on modern society. This includes all religions, I have read the Koran, Old and New Testament and even asked for a door knocker to return the following week as I wanted a copy of The book of Mormon.

I found his selective quotes from the bible very interesting, and amusing to a degree for what he left out but got sick of adverts for shoe companies that sponsor the Wallabies, his wedding photographer etc so I un-followed.

I get sick of the adverts that are meant to be posts by the player, some are just ridiculous, a few years ago Michelle Wie posted a photo with her new Rolex....that was upside down.

 

[liquor box]

The islanders are a pretty tight knit group and are very strong in their religious beliefs.
I really hope this doesn’t spiral out of control.
It’s already got far more airtime than it deserves and probably would have just slipped through to the keeper if the media hadn’t got a hold of it.
I wonder how RA would deal with a collective response from the islander community.
There’s a real can of worms here waiting to open

I think RA would be happy, when is the last time anyone talked about match fixing?
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...e-reopened-says-official-20190307-p512gk.html

What is more damaging to the code, match fixing or a devout christian believing sinners should repent?

 

[sidelineview]

I think Izzy was careless in the way he worded his infamous post but with no malice intended.


He should be receiving a lot of support from his Church friends and family which will strengthen his resolve.

Personally I admire the courage of his convictions and support his stand.

This is a controversial and complex social issue and will prove to be a very significant case in Australian sporting history.

 

[liquor box]

Apparently Cheika has said he won't pick Folau anymore:


Looks like it's now just about how much of his contract he walks away with

I support Cheika for this stance but it is a bit of a mine field, if he is not penalized by RA through some technicality it would hard to argue that his non selection was not personal.

 

[Slim 293]

Never mentioned Rugby Australia, in my post, it was Rugby as a whole.

Especially so given New Zealand and the UK are happy to throw their 2 cents worth and plenty of people are happy to mention the spiriit of rugby, inclusiveness etc.

Who comprises this "rugby as a whole?"

 

[liquor box]

And how many potentially great players who are gay have been historically ostracised?
How many have been quiet about their sexuality due to comments such as Folau's?

Jason Ball (AFL player who came out as gay) discussed the impacts that these sort of comments had on him - https://www.news.com.au/sport/sport...t/news-story/9d0cbca1cbf5a45dd352d00efa0eac90

What if one of the current or future Wallabies is gay? Do we expect them to be able to play to the best of their ability knowing that one of their team mates believes that they are a sinner destined to go to hell?

Where do you end the list, are all his teammates who drink alcohol able to play to the best of their ability knowing that one of their team mates believes that they are a sinner destined to go to hell? What about others on his list?

Remember these guys are professionals and are there to do a job, not be friends

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Is rugby as a whole painting itself into a corner, or just heading down the road of double standards?

What do 2019 Rugby World Cup participants Namibia, Samoa and Tonga have in common?

Homosexuality is illegal in these countries.

Australia is not those countries.

 

[liquor box]

From memory, none of those countries are governed by Rugby Australia......

But we accept players from their country to play for ours. If we accept them as ours then we must accept what comes with it, they have a belief system that is close to their hearts.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

But we accept players from their country to play for ours. If we accept them as ours then we must accept what comes with it, they have a belief system that is close to their hearts.

And they have to respect the values we hold as well.

 

[Lorenzo]

But we accept players from their country to play for ours. If we accept them as ours then we must accept what comes with it, they have a belief system that is close to their hearts.

No one has an issue with folau's 'belief system'. His employer required that he would refrain from making public remarks of a certain nature, and he couldn't stop himself. It is actually achievable to worship in private and if he needs to lament the existence of gays, he could do it at his home with whoever he wants and there'd be no issue.

The deal here is actually pretty fucking simple. You want 7figures to play rugby? Well you might need to accept that as a brand ambassador, you need to be 'on' in public almost all of the time, or at the very least you might need to comply with your employer's request to keep quiet on certain things.

Want to be able to say literally anything? You probably need to be working for yourself, because the rest of us working stiffs can't do it either, and we aren't public figures.

 

[Rebels3]

But we accept players from their country to play for ours. If we accept them as ours then we must accept what comes with it, they have a belief system that is close to their hearts.

Contrary to public debate this isn’t a human rights or religious freedom issue, this is an employment issue.

You are welcome to think and believe what you like, but these beliefs cannot be practiced in a manner that’s detrimental to your employers commercial and image interests. There is many ways Folau could of practiced his beliefs in a manner that would not be seen as detrimental.

Certain faiths that don’t believe in homosexuality are free to believe and think this, but they can’t be representing this in a way that affects their employers image. If someone doesn’t like it, they are free to leave their job and pursue a career in something that allows them to represent themselves in any manner they like

 

[Quick Hands]

And they have to respect the values we hold as well.

Although "they" are in fact "us" by virtue of being born in Australia - Folau being born in Minto for example. Many of the rugby players of PI heritage are in fact Australians by birth.

 

[gel]

Homosexuality being the one that’s not controllable.

Kleptomania, confabulation and addictive personality disorders are also not controllable.

They have to be "managed", but are just there in the person.

The real difference is that lying, thieving, excessive drunkenness are really socially destructive behaviours and therefore are problematic and things that need to be solved or fixed. Sleeping around, atheism or having sex with the same gender are really difficult to demonstrate social destructiveness in large populations (possibly any population sizes but historically the smaller groups have tended to limit those activities so I'm guessing that's due to some kind of "success thing")