The Israel Folau saga

[Derpus]

Threatening an atheist with hell seems to be ridiculous at best. I'm not offended either. I'm at a stage in my life where I have less time for christians than I've ever had. But I can also see people in a vulnerable place could be confused by his post and support what RA has done.

I think a lot of people just assume that LGBTQI people must also be atheist but i don't really think that's the case. It's perhaps less ridiculous to be offended by his comments if you are christian and gay.

Anyway, i don't know if this has already been posted by Izzy looks like he's going to take his punishment on the chin. I think his comments were stupid but respect his response to his sacking (if he follows through):

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-wi...3hDKWA_sNGMTjWkmdKycPqoiAkTjGHObWY7XAsWBnG2fk

Although, having read what he said the article seems to be stretching a bit where it says he wont pursue legal action.

 

[Ignoto]

What I do feel is;- while I accept the right of people to be offended and wish to punish the person or group that says something you don’t agree with. I am more concerned about who gets offended next over what. I feel this issue is much bigger than rugby and TBH I think to date RA seem to be doing a good job at handling it.

A few things Half. This whole issue is more than 'someone is offended' at something 'trivial' said by a nobody. For most people, they're able to brush it off. However, there are vulnerable people in our society who are facing issues about their sexuality. Through the last four decades or so, the world has been moving in a direction to protect these groups from disparaging remarks and forcing people to realise how harmful their words are.

Remember, Israel is looked up to by our young and impressionable members of the Rugby community. Israel and people who voice their out of date views in such an excluding way forces these people to hide from us who they really are in fear of not being accepted by the rugby community.

It's also interesting that you talk about freedom of speech and how important it is. However, around the world each country/society does have some kind of limitator on it. Take defamation laws for instance, we enacted it to stop people going around wrongly tarnishing out reputations.

It feels that people who brush these types of issues off are only considering the impact it has on them and where they currently are in life. When you start to hear the impact the words that Israel and people like him actually have on others, peoples tunes quickly change.

The post was not in breach of any law, and in line with the known values of many churches and faiths, who are protected to practice their faith. I dare say, Rudd, Abbott and SoMo are all practising Christians so its not like some secret society.

The gist of it is, as I see it, no law broken, a known value system, and we take away a person job and earning capacity, and I wonder aloud is that the proper response and further what happens when I call the fat guy in the scrum, fatso and put up a post and say we beat ##### and their props boy are they fat.

Could you explain a bit further why you're coming it at a criminal aspect? I'm a little confused on why a law has to be broken for a private company to sack a private individuals contract? Every day, companies let employees go when no law has been broken.

I think a lot of people just assume that LGBTQI people must also be atheist but i don't really think that's the case. It's perhaps less ridiculous to be offended by his comments if you are christian and gay.

Yeap! The latest Census highlights this; https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/2071.0~2016~Main Features~Same-Sex Couples~85

People in same-sex couples were most likely to report they had no religion (57%), however, 32% said they were Christian.

 

[fatprop]

Yeap! The latest Census highlights this; https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/2071.0~2016~Main Features~Same-Sex Couples~85

Pretty certain that no more 0.0000000001% would consider themselves in Folau's sect

 

[Samson]

The inclusive policy should be renamed ' Acceptable people policy' because RA do not include everyone.

 

[rod skellet]

Am I alone? I feel that I am.

I am not the slightest bit offended by a post on social media.

Having been made aware of it by various media (this one firstly) I still Care little of the view expressed.

I think it is only misguided thinking from religious brain washing. I feel sorry for him but really dont care what he does on social media with whoever tunes into it.

Would love the world to move on and let Izzy get back to playing Rugby. Sadly, that's not going to happen.

Izzy, probably the cleanest living and polite and respectful player to wear the Gold Jersey. What crime has been committed other than stupidly?

I concur with the Honey Badger and I also believe Rugby Australia is stuck between a Rock and a hard place in regards to what to do about this.

It would be a shame to lose Israel Folau from rugby. So as a thought of a compromise and to avoid what potentially could be a very litigious situation developing why don't we adopt the Qld approach and send him to club rugby. Get him to play for Western Sydney Two Blues for the remainder of his contract. The Wallabies and Waratahs can be off limits as deemed and agreed by the selectors just like Brad Thorn did with Quaide Cooper.

It would be a great boost to Western Sydney and with a marquee player like Folau on board especially for 3 years it may encourage some other good forwards to get over there as well and make the West a genuine contender.

In 3 years time maybe through success on field the West can be a fertile ground for the Waratahs and Wallabies.

Anyway just some ramblings on the subject from one who is not an expert but does love the game.

 

[Rebels3]

A million dollars a season for the next 4 years to play club rugby, plus he’s a guy the greater portion of the public have shown no interest in engaging with any more.

I’ll pass on that option

Quade was a special case, because he’s revered in QLD.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The inclusive policy should be renamed ' Acceptable people policy' because RA do not include everyone.

Have you ever actually followed his social media accounts? He's never been shy on posting about his religious beliefs and for the most part no one has blinked and eyelid at it nor seen fit to pull him up on it. It has only been on these two occasions where he has consciously posted inflammatory and discriminatory content has it become an issue. Faith doesn't provide someone with a free pass on these issues. Nor does the lack thereof when it comes to issues surrounding religion.

 

[Derpus]

I concur with the Honey Badger and I also believe Rugby Australia is stuck between a Rock and a hard place in regards to what to do about this.

It would be a shame to lose Israel Folau from rugby. So as a thought of a compromise and to avoid what potentially could be a very litigious situation developing why don't we adopt the Qld approach and send him to club rugby. Get him to play for Western Sydney Two Blues for the remainder of his contract. The Wallabies and Waratahs can be off limits as deemed and agreed by the selectors just like Brad Thorn did with Quaide Cooper.

It would be a great boost to Western Sydney and with a marquee player like Folau on board especially for 3 years it may encourage some other good forwards to get over there as well and make the West a genuine contender.

In 3 years time maybe through success on field the West can be a fertile ground for the Waratahs and Wallabies.

Anyway just some ramblings on the subject from one who is not an expert but does love the game.

Having him play club rugby would definitely be more expensive than legal fees + payout for loss of income.

I doubt he would be awarded the full sum of his contract even if he wins, which he probably wouldn't.

 

[Strewthcobber]

A million dollars a season for the next 4 years to play club rugby, plus he’s a guy the greater portion of the public have shown no interest in engaging with any more.

I’ll pass on that option

Quade was a special case, because he’s revered in QLD.

Also because he had done nothing that could cause him to lose his contract

 

[fatprop]

 

[dru]

Also because he had done nothing that could cause him to lose his contract

The could not afford the Quade fiasco. And if Israel has transgressed at Super level it's exactly the same for park rugby.

At this point he plays rugby - or not.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Reading that article that Derpus linked to, I actually respect Izzy's stance if he's fair dinkum about walking away without legal action. I completely disagree with his views, but I respect his (in his eyes) stance on accepting that those views and his continued involvement in footy are incompatible. It's a waste of talent, but that's his call.

 

[tragic]

Have you ever actually followed his social media accounts? He's never been shy on posting about his religious beliefs and for the most part no one has blinked and eyelid at it nor seen fit to pull him up on it. It has only been on these two occasions where he has consciously posted inflammatory and discriminatory content has it become an issue. Faith doesn't provide someone with a free pass on these issues. Nor does the lack thereof when it comes to issues surrounding religion.

Nah - the issue on both occasion was that he mentioned homosexuals - a taboo topic. Not pc and it represents a group currently in the midst of affirmative action/ reverse discrimination.
No one really cares about the other minority groups he mentioned, or his rants about “sinners” in general so it was tolerated.

 

[wamberal]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if he had included Jews and Muslims in the list. Oh, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, and on and on.


In terms of his own beliefs, surely they are all just as damned?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Nah - the issue on both occasion was that he mentioned homosexuals - a taboo topic. Not pc and it represents a group currently in the midst of affirmative action/ reverse discrimination.
No one really cares about the other minority groups he mentioned, or his rants about “sinners” in general so it was tolerated.

What other minority groups did he identify in his post? Atheists? Under such strict definitions of religiosity which are applied by many of these kinds of Christian groups anyone who identifies as not religious is an atheist. And according to the last census that equates to 29.6% of the population. Larger than any one Christian denomination and more than half of the wider Christian (which includes Catholics which are the largest single Christian sect) population. And I'd suggest a fair % of those who identify as Christian wouldn't be all that active in their faith anyway.

Point being, atheists are as much of a minority group in less so than Catholics in Australia. On the other hand only 3.2% of people in Australia identify as homosexual. Sin is supposed to reflect the fundamentals of human weakness and character to be overcome. Being homosexual isn't a character flaw that can be worked on and being religious isn't an excuse to suggest as much in a secular society.

 

[half]

Ignoto

^^^^^^

I opened my post by saying I was conflicted in this debate as their are two sides .

Bear in my I am in no way religious.

You and I dare say most people have come down on the side he has to be let go, he has not broken any law but he is out of step with community feeling and the rights of the gay community. Further his statements badly impact the way many of these people feel and many look up to him and he should be a role model.

Maybe the above is an over simplification but I think it broadly covers the arguments.

TBH I don't disagree with any of it and support the general thrust of inclusion.

So hang with me on the next bit.

Where I am conflicted is the outrage is by no means 100% of the country, in fact I dare say maybe as high as 40% of the country may agree with him.

The 40% is a pure guess it could be 10% there is no way of measuring, however he did receive a number of likes in a short period of time.

We need to stop hate speech, calling someone a name, wog, bum boy etc needs to stop.

But what is hate speech, and what is free speech and what is restrictions on the press. To me it seems and remember I am a non believer it seems that those people of faith are getting it in the neck .

My biggest fear is what next,

There is no easy answer and I don't see it as black and white as many others do. To take away the income of a person for expressing something most already knew about anyway, for me I have to ask is this a reasonable response.

As an aside and I post this as very very side issue and don't wish to make it in anyway the major point but equally to leave it out of the discussion is maybe wrong. Numerous studies over many years about extremists especially right wing nut jobs often fester when people are shouted down and can't express their views.

IMO this issue is far bigger than rugby, just maybe we should have seen this coming and not renewed the contract and let him go to league. But the issues would still be the same.

 

[Ignoto]

My biggest fear is what next,

There is no easy answer and I don't see it as black and white as many others do. To take away the income of a person for expressing something most already knew about anyway, for me I have to ask is this a reasonable response.

Thanks for clarifying Half.

Regarding the highlighted part. What happens in a world were RA doesn't terminate Israel's contract, docks him a few weeks pay and the status quo remains.

However, the largest sponsor RA has (and one that heavily subsidizes the largest cost the Wallabies and Super Rugby team have in travel) walks away from renewing and as a result RA has a huge financial hole to fill. That may cause jobs to be lost at RA, or grass root sponsorship being pulled, top ups for our Wallabies being reduced all so one bloke can spout nonsense that most Australian's don't agree with?

I agree that this is an extremely complex issue and there are no winners in this situation. Even coming from Israel's perspective, where he would give most of his money away to family members and even his church. By knowingly posting what he did, he should have known he would jeopardize his ability to provide for all those people. With a terminated contract, there's a lot of mouths that will go unfed because of whoever got these ideas into his head.

 

[wamberal]

The problem is that he believes that he is being motivated by a higher power. In a way, he sounds like somebody who believes that everything he does must be okay, because the big guy upstairs is "in control".


This sort of logic is bizarre to most of us, but that seems to be what he believes. Whatever happens, it must be God's will.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The problem is that he believes that he is being motivated by a higher power. In a way, he sounds like somebody who believes that everything he does must be okay, because the big guy upstairs is "in control".


This sort of logic is bizarre to most of us, but that seems to be what he believes. Whatever happens, it must be God's will.

inshallah

 

[Derpus]

The problem is that he believes that he is being motivated by a higher power. In a way, he sounds like somebody who believes that everything he does must be okay, because the big guy upstairs is "in control".


This sort of logic is bizarre to most of us, but that seems to be what he believes. Whatever happens, it must be God's will.

Actually, i think he's being told that gods will is to proselytize. I don't think he thinks he can do anything, he just thinks he must do what God wants according to whatever it is he's basing his beliefs off, including calling for sinners to repent.