The Israel Folau saga

[Adam84]

Correct
And they are about social media and bullying.
Which is a completely different issue.

Explain how it’s a completely different issue

 

[dru]

And what do the sponsors paying the bills believe?

I would have thought that, being presumptuous here, but if a legal system finds that Folau was within his rights of religious freedom and RA has transgressed - that in this case quality jurisprudence would be exactly consistent around the sponsors as they are with RA.

And, again being presumptuous, if Folau is not found to be within his rights of religious expression, then a threat from sponsors becomes a material matter.

 

[dru]

two diametrically opposed truths colliding seems to be a generational discussion.


I am sure there are white supremacist out there who truly believe they are part of a aryan superior master race, and that intermixing with other races is destroying the purity of their origins and causing the downfall of civilisation.

I am also sure that there are other races like Jews who believe they aren't inferior and would feel hurt by white supremacist comments.

Analogies here are arrant nonsense. In the case of religious freedom it is pretty much supported by any reasonable ethic and also by law. In the case of racial discrimination it is exactly the opposite.

 

[Adam84]

Analogies here are arrant nonsense. In the case of religious freedom it is pretty much supported by any reasonable ethic and also by law. In the case of racial discrimination it is exactly the opposite.

I must say, ‘religious freedom’ has a much nicer sound to it then homophobic rant or sexual orientation discrimination. And the point of the comment was to highlight the nonsense of the preceding comment.

Just because people believe what they say, doesn’t mean it comes without consequences

 

[dru]

I must say, ‘religious freedom’ has a much nicer sound to it then homophobic rant or sexual orientation discrimination.

Adam, it is why I noted I was being presumptuous. Either way an anology of extreme racism as a positive comparitor to how religious freedom may be interpreted is inappropriate.

On the religious freedom thing, most definitely yes there are problems even in the most broadly supportive view to Folau. Quoting biblical passage does not mean imo that religious freedom protects a person against having transgressed other freedoms. An example would be religious text passages that encourage action against non-believers - would and should be unpalatable to pretty much all of us.

I don't like how RA handled the first blow up, but I can't argue their stance this time.

All of us need cool heads though. Avoidance of persecution due to sexual preference is to be supported. So is avoiding persecution of religious preference. Both should be protected.

 

[tragic]

Explain how it’s a completely different issue

If you had read the articles you refer to you wouldn’t need to ask that question

 

[tragic]

It’s right there in the thread title - “social media”.

I was referring to the articles Adam mentioned on “bullying” in social media
A term which people are quick to throw around these days.
And a term which is completely irrelevant to this situation

 

[Ignoto]

We need to stop being so pc and quit being offended on behalf of others.

No-one is being offended on others behalf. People are saying, Israel shouldn't be spouting this bullshit when he's specifically be contracted not to. There's absolutely no need for him to express his views on who and shouldn't go to a made up hell.

And the comment that his rants might influence our kids is rubbish - give them more credit that that.

I suggest you read up on those the numbers on how much more likely a Gay child/youth is to commit suicide. It makes for a shocking read and it comes back to the community we living in, not giving them an opportunity to develop that 'think shell' that you and your friends have.

 

[Adam84]

i support religious freedoms, up until the point where it begins to impose or negatively impact on others. I also don’t support it when people within that religion are denied opportunities and human rights offered to those outside of it.

We need to be careful when discussing ‘religious freedom’, because there’s fairly extreme variations of what certain parts of each religion believe in.

 

[Adam84]

If you had read the articles you refer to you wouldn’t need to ask that question

All I want to know is how posting that gays going to hell on social media, is a completely different issue to bullying on social media.

You’re the one stating it’s completely different issue, so tell me how rather then defecting the question..

 

[tragic]

I suggest you read up on those the numbers on how much more likely a Gay child/youth is to commit suicide. It makes for a shocking read and it comes back to the community we living in, not giving them an opportunity to develop that 'think shell' that you and your friends have.

The problem is one of cause and effect.
The majority of first world youth these days are not religious. Well under 50% on census data.
Posts like Folau’s are not the cause for the statistics you refer to.
There are much greater forces at play than the occasional broad swipe at “sinners” from a known fundamentalist Christian which happened to include reference to homosexuals.
Your thought processes are leaning in the right direction but not addressing the root cause.

 

[Aurelius]

i support religious freedoms, up until the point where it begins to impose or negatively impact on others.

Well, that right there is impossible to define. "Negatively impacts on others" could mean absolutely anything, and in this day and age it apparently means hurt feelings.

The bar has to be set higher than merely offending someone who doesn't share someone's religious beliefs, otherwise we're basically ceding our freedoms to whoever claims offense.

 

[tragic]

All I want to know is how posting that gays going to hell on social media, is a completely different issue to bullying on social media.

You’re the one stating it’s completely different issue, so tell me how rather then defecting the question..

Do you believe that preachers on the street corner are bullying those that walk past? What about tv evangelists? Of course they aren’t. They are expressing a religious opinion which happens to be unpalatable for the majority of inclusive rational people. They were not aimed at an individual or even a specific group - even more broadly they reference a multitude of sinners.
The articles you refer to relate to the power of social media to specifically target individuals with relentless comments that alienate,isolate and belittle them in front of their peers.
This is a totally different issue and the articles/statistics you refer to are not evidence to support your arguement

 

[Adam84]

Well, that right there is impossible to define. "Negatively impacts on others" could mean absolutely anything, and in this day and age it apparently means hurt feelings.

The bar has to be set higher than merely offending someone who doesn't share someone's religious beliefs, otherwise we're basically ceding our freedoms to whoever claims offense.

It really isn’t impossible to define, its in line with anti-discrimination concepts and protecting human rights as an evolution of social acceptance and inclusiveness.

It’s a bigger issue then just hurt feelings,

 

[Strewthcobber]

Well, that right there is impossible to define. "Negatively impacts on others" could mean absolutely anything, and in this day and age it apparently means hurt feelings.

The bar has to be set higher than merely offending someone who doesn't share someone's religious beliefs, otherwise we're basically ceding our freedoms to whoever claims offense.

Isn't the whole point that we cede our freedoms to those paying us?

If you don't want to accept those limits, don't accept the payment. That's why it's a contract.

Izzy Folau, waratah and wallaby, can't post this stuff. When he's not on the payroll, he's free to excersise his religious freedoms how he likes

 

[Adam84]

Do you believe that preachers on the street corner are bullying those that walk past? What about tv evangelists? Of course they aren’t. They are expressing a religious opinion which happens to be unpalatable for the majority of inclusive rational people. They were not aimed at an individual or even a specific group - even more broadly they reference a multitude of sinners.
The articles you refer to relate to the power of social media to specifically target individuals with relentless comments that alienate,isolate and belittle them in front of their peers.
This is a totally different issue and the articles/statistics you refer to are not evidence to support your arguement

Ok, so you think because he said multiple groups are going to to hell and didn’t just target a specific group this issue is completely different to social media and bullying, and the impact on youth today?

 

[Dctarget]

Aye I feel like we know where we all stand and we're not going to convince the other side to change their mind. We've all had a crack and this is getting a bit circular. Let's move on and get the topic back to something more relevant.

 

[tragic]

Ok, so you think because he said multiple groups are going to to hell and didn’t just target a specific group this issue is completely different to social media and bullying, and the impact on youth today?

Nope. Reread my response
It is not relentless and individually targeted humiliation in front of peers - which is the topic of the articles about social media bullying that you refer to but obviously haven’t read.
Bullying is a term used all to frequently these days.
It is a problem but this is not an example.

 

[Adam84]

Nope. Reread my response
It is not relentless and individually targeted humiliation in front of peers - which is the topic of the articles about social media bullying that you refer to but obviously haven’t read.
Bullying is a term used all to frequently these days.
It is a problem but this is not an example.

Ok, you think bullying is limited to “relentless and individually targeted humiliation in front of peers”?

Perhaps read some of them cyber bullying journal articles, which you keep claiming I haven’t read

 

[Slim 293]

Ok, so you think because he said multiple groups are going to to hell and didn’t just target a specific group this issue is completely different to social media and bullying, and the impact on youth today?

Except that one of those groups clearly stands out from the others.............

Much like if he had said “All Orthodontists, people who claim the Kinks are better than the Beatles, black people, Jews and cat lovers are going to Hell.”