The Israel Folau saga

[waiopehu oldboy]

That is his profile, I think he is talking about the actual post itself.

If you just consider whether his post was a breach as opposed to his post featuring his profile then it is vastly different.

I thought he was terminated due to the actual post?

Yes I was, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Clutching at split hairs much?

There's a pic of IF in 'tahs gear above & to the right of the image that started this shit fight. He kept those images up until his termination became official despite, apparently, being given opportunities to take them down & have his breach notice downgraded.

 

[Tex]

Well done. It was predictable who would like this post.
Not much to beat your chest about.
This thread is predominately pro RA but there are more insightful broader views in the diverse inclusive wider community.
We'll see how it pans out.
I'm sure we'll all stay tuned into the progress of this saga.
Dont lose your sense of humor if Folau comes out on top.

It's definitely funny, and in the context of a web forum, it's definitely something to beat his chest about.

Total commitment to the dark art of shit posting, without which we'd be stuck wallowing in the morose swamps of cultural warfare.

Long live Dismal

 

[formerflanker]

Isn't the whole point of all this in terms of people saying its 'gotten off topic', that Rugby Australia has gone 'Off Topic' by invading into a political space, probably unfairly dismissing someone from a workplace for having a political view?

That's the whole reason this thread is 'off topic'

We'll see what the courts say or if they settle, but I don't expect its a vexatious law suit that's for sure

By the way- for those defending Qantas, isn't it nice to see it using its oligopoly to smash regional flyers (myself included), particularly in North QLD where gouging is commonplace! Lovely people

A very good point.
The "topic" has broadened considerably since RA and the 'Tahs tore up Israel's contract.
A good example of the wider considerations is Adam Creighton's treatment of corporate power in today's Australian.
A quick summary his long article -

The sacking of rugby player Israel Folau over a social media post has missed the bigger picture: the growing power of employers over our behaviour and freedom of expression. Folau, with years of earning millions behind him and an influential cheer squad in the media, will be fine. But millions of ordinary workers have to comply with proliferating “codes of conduct” and “ethics” every day or face getting the sack.

Freedom of speech, the rights of employees to a personal opinion, religious freedom, government intervention into professional sport.....the "topic" list is ever expanding.
I don't think we will be going "off topic" anytime soon.

 

[barbarian]

I don't think we will be going "off topic" anytime soon.

No, you will be. That post was largely off topic, actually.

The topic is the Israel Folau saga. The thread exists to discuss Israel Folau and his case against RA at the Fair Work Commission.

If you would like to discuss any or all of the following:

Religious freedom in society
The 'treatment of corporate power' in modern Australia
The existence of a deity or deities
Qantas general business position and/or it's flight pricing in North Queensland
The evils/virtues of political correctness
Marriage equality
Mabo and/or 'the vibe'

.......then we'd kindly invite you to find a more appropriate forum to do so.

A good beginner's guide to the above - if your post doesn't include any reference to Israel Folau and his actions, then it might be off topic.
.

 

[Derpus]

It's only been broadened if you accept that there was fault in the contract, i.e. if the code of conduct is unenforceable or some such, and then it becomes an issue of general law. i.e. can you dismiss someone for certain comments even though their contract doesn't specifically prohibit that behaviour.

Otherwise it remains a discreet contract issue. And anyway, if there is a flaw in the contract Izzy is probably in the clear without having to delve further into the social or legal implications of the matter.

 

[Quick Hands]

Clutching at split hairs much?

There's a pic of IF in 'tahs gear above & to the right of the image that started this shit fight. He kept those images up until his termination became official despite, apparently, being given opportunities to take them down & have his breach notice downgraded.

I was simply confirming what another poster said. You seem to have a bit of personal thing with trying to challenge anything that I say. I'm not quite sure what your point is with this post other to try to start some sort of argument. I won't be obliging.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I was simply confirming what another poster said. You seem to have a bit of personal thing with trying to challenge anything that I say. I'm not quite sure what your point is with this post other to try to start some sort of argument. I won't be obliging.

Forget about fake news there appears to be fake fighting going on

Back on topic. The Fair Commission application is an interesting step to say the least. Not sure where it’s up to, but with unlawful termination cases there is a compulsory conference/mediation step that must occur before any hearing. Given the public positions of both sides it seems unlikely that any resolution will come. Folau can then seek arbitration at the Commission or take to the Fed Court.

If it gets to that stage I hope one of our resident GAGRs in Sydney with a little time can go down to the court and be a real reporter. Not one of the media outlets that appear to have an agenda on this.

 

[cyclopath]

Forget about fake news there appears to be fake fighting going on

Back on topic. The Fair Commission application is an interesting step to say the least. Not sure where it’s up to, but with unlawful termination cases there is a compulsory conference/mediation step that must occur before any hearing. Given the public positions of both sides it seems unlikely that any resolution will come. Folau can then seek arbitration at the Commission or take to the Fed Court.

If it gets to that stage I hope one of our resident GAGRs in Sydney with a little time can go down to the court and be a real reporter. Not one of the media outlets that appear to have an agenda on this.

Look, I would, but whatever day that may be I think I'm planning to poke sticks in my eyes.

 

[Derpus]

Forget about fake news there appears to be fake fighting going on

Back on topic. The Fair Commission application is an interesting step to say the least. Not sure where it’s up to, but with unlawful termination cases there is a compulsory conference/mediation step that must occur before any hearing. Given the public positions of both sides it seems unlikely that any resolution will come. Folau can then seek arbitration at the Commission or take to the Fed Court.

If it gets to that stage I hope one of our resident GAGRs in Sydney with a little time can go down to the court and be a real reporter. Not one of the media outlets that appear to have an agenda on this.

If its a federal court judgment it'll be published, wouldn't it?

 

[Quick Hands]

Forget about fake news there appears to be fake fighting going on

Back on topic. The Fair Commission application is an interesting step to say the least. Not sure where it’s up to, but with unlawful termination cases there is a compulsory conference/mediation step that must occur before any hearing. Given the public positions of both sides it seems unlikely that any resolution will come. Folau can then seek arbitration at the Commission or take to the Fed Court.

If it gets to that stage I hope one of our resident GAGRs in Sydney with a little time can go down to the court and be a real reporter. Not one of the media outlets that appear to have an agenda on this.

The key steps in the unlawful termination process are:

1. An employee lodges application.
2. Commission staff members check the application to make sure it is complete and valid.
3. The employer is served with the application.
4. Generally, the Commission will deal with the dispute by holding a conference. The aim of the conference is to try to help the parties resolve the matter themselves. A conference is a private and confidential process where a Commission Member helps the parties to resolve their dispute by agreement.
5. If the Commission is satisfied that all reasonable attempts to resolve the dispute have been unsuccessful or are unlikely to be successful, a certificate will be issued.

After a certificate has been issued, there are three possible paths:

1. The parties can notify the Commission that they agree to the dispute being arbitrated. Arbitration means that the Commission will hear and determine the dispute. The Commission may then order:
   • reinstatement of the employee
   • payment of compensation to the employee
   • payment of an amount to the employee for remuneration lost
   • that the continuity of the employee’s employment is maintained, and/or
   • that the period of the employee’s continuous service with the employer is maintained.
   The Commission may also dismiss the application.
2. If the parties don't agree to arbitration, the employee can make an application to the Federal Court or Federal Circuit Court to deal with the matter. The employee has 14 calendar days after the date the certificate was issued to apply to the courts to hear the case.

https://www.fwc.gov.au/termination-employment/unlawful-termination#field-content-5-heading

 

[Kiwikrs]

Hi Kiwikrs, welcome to G&G forum.

Real question, are you associated with RA or their PR agency.?

Not in any shape or form.

Just a fan of rugby, why do you ask?

 

[Quick Hands]

Forget about fake news there appears to be fake fighting going on

Back on topic. The Fair Commission application is an interesting step to say the least. Not sure where it’s up to, but with unlawful termination cases there is a compulsory conference/mediation step that must occur before any hearing. Given the public positions of both sides it seems unlikely that any resolution will come. Folau can then seek arbitration at the Commission or take to the Fed Court.

If it gets to that stage I hope one of our resident GAGRs in Sydney with a little time can go down to the court and be a real reporter. Not one of the media outlets that appear to have an agenda on this.

An interesting aspect to FWC hearings:

An unlawful termination claim attracts a reverse onus of proof.
This means that once an employee (or an industrial association entitled to represent the employee) makes a claim that the employee was terminated for one or more unlawful reasons, the employer will have to show that the termination was not for one of these reasons.
https://www.fwc.gov.au/termination-employment/unlawful-termination#field-content-5-heading

 

[ACT Crusader]

An interesting aspect to FWC hearings:

An unlawful termination claim attracts a reverse onus of proof.
This means that once an employee (or an industrial association entitled to represent the employee) makes a claim that the employee was terminated for one or more unlawful reasons, the employer will have to show that the termination was not for one of these reasons.
https://www.fwc.gov.au/termination-employment/unlawful-termination#field-content-5-heading

While the facts in this matter are unique and interesting, the law around unlawful termination are fairly well established.

The reverse onus provisions on RA to disprove that they didn’t make the termination on the above grounds will be what will intrigue most because the counsel for Folau will want to get into the mind and motivation of RA when the decision was made to terminate.

 

[ACT Crusader]

If its a federal court judgment it'll be published, wouldn't it?

If it proceeds to trial the judgment will certainly be published. But that can take weeks/months after the trial. The evidence and legal arguments throughout the trial aren’t always reflected in the reasons, and yet can provide an insight into some of the broader issues at play.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I was simply confirming what another poster said. You seem to have a bit of personal thing with trying to challenge anything that I say. I'm not quite sure what your point is with this post other to try to start some sort of argument. I won't be obliging.

You've been quite prolific & at times thought-provoking on this & the semi-related RA thread & this is the first time I've contradicted you so, no, it's not personal.

 

[The Honey Badger]

The key steps in the unlawful termination process are:

1. An employee lodges application.
2. Commission staff members check the application to make sure it is complete and valid.
3. The employer is served with the application.
4. Generally, the Commission will deal with the dispute by holding a conference. The aim of the conference is to try to help the parties resolve the matter themselves. A conference is a private and confidential process where a Commission Member helps the parties to resolve their dispute by agreement.
5. If the Commission is satisfied that all reasonable attempts to resolve the dispute have been unsuccessful or are unlikely to be successful, a certificate will be issued.

After a certificate has been issued, there are three possible paths:

1. The parties can notify the Commission that they agree to the dispute being arbitrated. Arbitration means that the Commission will hear and determine the dispute. The Commission may then order:
   • reinstatement of the employee
   • payment of compensation to the employee
   • payment of an amount to the employee for remuneration lost
   • that the continuity of the employee’s employment is maintained, and/or
   • that the period of the employee’s continuous service with the employer is maintained.
   The Commission may also dismiss the application.
2. If the parties don't agree to arbitration, the employee can make an application to the Federal Court or Federal Circuit Court to deal with the matter. The employee has 14 calendar days after the date the certificate was issued to apply to the courts to hear the case.

https://www.fwc.gov.au/termination-employment/unlawful-termination#field-content-5-heading

Gees Quick Hands, you left us hanging.

What is the 3rd path.?

 

[I like to watch]

Pray?

 

[Braveheart81]

The only aspect of this that goes to the Fair Work Commission is the mediation process isn't it? Assuming that fails, it then goes straight to the Federal Court because Fair Work don't deal with dismissals where the salary is over ~ $145k.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Tweet from Mark Latham.

I gather this means it is likely to become law in NSW if a bill goes through the lower house.

Not sure what that means for Izzy and any retrospective application in his case.

 

[The Honey Badger]