tahs turnaround

[Bruce Ross]

the issue i have had with the tahs the last few years was the boring style of play- the aimless kicking and the lack off passion the players showed

my only concern is dumb rugby with aimless, incontestable kicking. But the Tahs finished the season having a go and were beaten by a better side on the day- I can live with that and even most of their losses in the season as they were competitive in all ... and played some good rugby.

My frustration with the Tah's is that they consistently play below their potential. There is stacks of evidence, lots of examples, multiple reasons for this. It is the single biggest thing that drives me nuts about them. Any proper gameplan is ok, just execute it with whatever it takes and I will be much happier.

My view that the important distinction isn't between "boring" and "attractive" rugby. Many Australian fans equate "attractive" with open, flowing, try-scoring play while those in other countries find tighter, forward-dominated games absorbing and therefore to them attractive.

What has really frustrated me about my team has been the number of occasions where they have played "dumb" and "aimless" rugby. Some time ago, someone - Gagger? - made the point that typically the Waratahs play the first ten minutes of their games with purpose and intensity and look as if they could beat anyone. If the other team doesn't respond then the 'Tahs can maintain that level of performance throughout most of the match as they did in the first two games this season. But if the opposition muscles up then all semblance of a Waratah game plan seems to evaporate.

I am reminded of a Mike Tyson quote: "Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth." Once the Waratahs cop a metaphorical "smack in the mouth" they tend to resort to "headless chook" rugby. That's what I find so disappointing. Under pressure it is difficult to discern any coherent game plan. I don't see "lack of passion"; I see a lack of capacity to think their way and battle their way through a confronting situation.

Perhaps that's what's happened to much of Australian rugby: complete execution excellence and deep skills on show, major victories, getting to the very top, high quality management of the franchises, etc, it's just not expected anymore. I believe it was once.

(For what it's worth, all my experience in business has been that if you set high standards and express demanding expectations (provided they are within the realms of achieve-ability), you will ultimately gain a far better final outcome than if you are willing to 'forgive' mediocrity and find lots of explanations for it that let's those responsible off the hook.)

I think RH makes some very pertinent points. My only quibble - probably due to onrushing senility - is that I don't remember the golden age where all these greatly desirable attributes characterised Australian rugby. "High quality management of the franchises"? I must have nodded off.

 

[TOCC]

I tend to agree Bruce, I don't think the tahs played 'boring' rugby as in relation to the NH version of the game which involves precise kicking, strong defence, highly structured/but simple attack and rumbling forwards. Which can be quite enthralljn rugby when done well.. The Tahs did show glimpses of all those at various times, but the thing which made me uninterested and largely frustrated with watching the tahs was the silly decisions and lack of basic skills often shown..

You know they are capable of so much more, which is why you cringe or groan in frustration when someone does a pointless kick, forces a unnecessary pass or drops an easy ball..

 

[chasmac]

You know they are capable of so much more, which is why you cringe or groan in frustration when someone does a pointless kick, forces a unnecessary pass or drops an easy ball.[/B]

I agree; For me the game that came closest to test match intensity in this years S15 was Reds V's Stormers in Cape Town.

The standout feature was the application of the reds at an individual level and at a team level. It wasn't a Razzle Dazzle win it was a grinding gameplan with the kickers putting the ball into the corners and the forwards outgunning the much vaunted stormers pack. Pressure was built and maintained thru quality of execution. The Stormers were top of the table at the time.

The Tah's potential is not being realised thru poor execution.

 

[waratahjesus]

You know they are capable of so much more, which is why you cringe or groan in frustration when someone does a pointless kick, forces a unnecessary pass or drops an easy ball.[/B]

I agree; For me the game that came closest to test match intensity in this years S15 was Reds V's Stormers in Cape Town.

The standout feature was the application of the reds at an individual level and at a team level. It wasn't a Razzle Dazzle win it was a
grinding gameplan with the kickers putting the ball into the corners and the forwards outgunning the much vaunted stormers pack.
Pressure was built and maintained thru quality of execution. The Stormers were top of the table at the time.

The Tah's potential is not being realised thru poor execution.

Sorry, that game was of a terrible mistake ridden quality by both teams, I'm not sure out of the reds season why you see this as even decent by there own standards

 

[Gagger]

I am reminded of a Mike Tyson quote: "Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth." Once the Waratahs cop a metaphorical "smack in the mouth" they tend to resort to "headless chook" rugby. That's what I find so disappointing. Under pressure it is difficult to discern any coherent game plan. I don't see "lack of passion"; I see a lack of capacity to think their way and battle their way through a confronting situation.

I like your line of thinking Bruce (and well attributed on the quote btw).

I think you're right about the lack of a plan after the smack in the chops, but here's the thing - with the Tahs gameplan / strengths, the plan B when someone belts you in the gob should be to suck it up, and then to belt them back, harder.

What does it take to do this? Well, the extra 10kg per man helps, but I'm afraid a lot of it is about mental toughness and desperation. You can't just tell yourself to do that, it needs to be in you and the whole team. Phil Waugh's got it in spades - but the rest?

I mentioned it on the latest podcast - I have a theory.

You watch The Code and can't help being impressed by the first class surroundings at the Tahs - the facilities, a coach/professional for everything, the history. Finals spots for the past for the last few years. A swathe of established names. All very "elite" - or is it comfortable?

Where's that mongrel gonna come from? Where's the adversity to fight against and pull you all together? Where's the young kids drive to prove they're the dog's nuts?

This for me the Tahs have been missing the past 2+ years, and the Reds (partly circumstantial, mainly good management - have you seen Link smile?) have had in spades.

My hope is that with the moving on of some "established" (not a lot left to play for) players, we can see some more fire in the belly. For me, a real rabble rousing, arse kicking coach is what's needed to get people out of their comfort zones - is that the Tahs style though?

 

[Gnostic]

Maybe I am not such a pariah afterall. The comments from Gagger and Bruce have heartened me somewhat, these are indeed the points I was attempting to make in March/April along with the eloquent post of Reds Happy regarding management and culture which IMO set the foundation for all the rest.

 

[TOCC]

You know they are capable of so much more, which is why you cringe or groan in frustration when someone does a pointless kick, forces a unnecessary pass or drops an easy ball.[/B]

I agree; For me the game that came closest to test match intensity in this years S15 was Reds V's Stormers in Cape Town.

The standout feature was the application of the reds at an individual level and at a team level. It wasn't a Razzle Dazzle win it was a grinding gameplan with the kickers putting the ball into the corners and the forwards outgunning the much vaunted stormers pack. Pressure was built and maintained thru quality of execution. The Stormers were top of the table at the time.

The Tah's potential is not being realised thru poor execution.

definetly, and the quality of that match is reflected in the statistics, one of the lowest error rates for a super rugby match in 2011 and incredibly only 5 line breaks the whole match, looking at the continuity statistics both teams did a good job at retaining the ball with plenty of 5+ 'rucks and mauls'.

The Tahs can play the NH style of mauling rugby all they want, i personally think its brilliant to watch, but they just need to be more clinical in persuing that style of game. It seemed at times they would persue the NH brutish style of rugby only to flick a switch and try and attempt the helter skelter style game as well.

The Tahs have the phsycality in the forward pack to have a rolling maul for 20m, to attack a teams line with pods and bash there way over, hopefully they pull it off in 2012.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I am reminded of a Mike Tyson quote: "Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth." Once the Waratahs cop a metaphorical "smack in the mouth" they tend to resort to "headless chook" rugby. That's what I find so disappointing. Under pressure it is difficult to discern any coherent game plan. I don't see "lack of passion"; I see a lack of capacity to think their way and battle their way through a confronting situation.

I agree with this. The irony I see is that it's the "good" players from the Tahs that I see do these things. I don't know how many times over the last two or so years I've seen the likes of Beale, Mitchell, Burgess, Barnes do silly things in attack that makes me (as a rugby fan) scratch my head and think why on earth would they do that. I'm no fan of the Tahs but I like to see good rugby and appreciate it when I see it. And it surprises me more when it's those named doing that stuff when it seems the pressure is on and "mindless" play is definitely not needed.

This year there were some of those moments but overall I thought they had a decent year and I do like the look of some of those younger players who have played out of necessity this year. I wasn't surprised to hear that they've scored the most tries this year, but if they can cut out the mindless stuff then I think the intensity of games will lift and from a viewing point of view that is what any fan (or non-fan) want to see regardless of how many tries they have scored.

 

[DPK]

I see where Gagger is coming from. Maybe they should have to spend some time pulling drinks, like Beau Robinson did for a while in Brisbane, to get some perspective on the environment they work and play in?

That said, we can't generalise with a theory that may not be completely accurate.

 

[Gagger]

Close the internet then DPK!

Sometimes you just gotta go with the vibe....

(especially if you're trying to justify Scott Higginbotham's selection at 6 for the Wallabies)

 

[Skippy]

Why don't NSW change their name to the Sydney Waratahs if they continue to think NSW is just Sydney.

Because if Sydney crowds are 'fickle' and/or they've isolated their Sydney based fans... why not take games to (of all places).... NSW!

Play some games at Penrith or Central Coast... take a game down to the Wollongong region or up to Newcastle etc. Take the game to the people and reward towns who've produced so many Wallabies and NSW players in the past.

Maybe playing to new and potential fan bases will be what's needed to 'put on a show' and see the team play more attractive rugby. Sometimes a change of location can help produce the change in culture and mentality the NSW Waratahs so badly need... at all levels of the organisation.

Maybe try and generate interest in the game, rewards supporters from these areas, get kids involved, find alternative markets and revenue streams. Sure, keep the SFS as the home of the Tahs and play the majority of games here but surely 2 games in the bush a year isn't too much to consider is it?

 

[waves]

Why don't NSW change their name to the Sydney Waratahs if they continue to think NSW is just Sydney.

Because if Sydney crowds are 'fickle' and/or they've isolated their Sydney based fans... why not take games to (of all places).... NSW!

Play some games at Penrith or Central Coast... take a game down to the Wollongong region or up to Newcastle etc. Take the game to the people and reward towns who've produced so many Wallabies and NSW players in the past.

Maybe playing to new and potential fan bases will be what's needed to 'put on a show' and see the team play more attractive rugby. Sometimes a change of location can help produce the change in culture and mentality the NSW Waratahs so badly need... at all levels of the organisation.

Maybe try and generate interest in the game, rewards supporters from these areas, get kids involved, find alternative markets and revenue streams. Sure, keep the SFS as the home of the Tahs and play the majority of games here but surely 2 games in the bush a year isn't too much to consider is it?

You can say that about all clubs in the S15 though, For instance QLD Reds play all their homes games in Brisbane (Suncorp Stadium) - So why not call the QLD Reds, Brisbane Reds ?

 

[Skippy]

Waves - Because in Qld and Act for example I would suggest that their supporters 'support' them and they are not as fickle as Sydney people thus no need to consider my proposal to increase fan base and attract people to the game and franchise as a supporter and try something out of the box to broaden the horizons of the franchise and perhaps get the team playing a more attractive style of rugby. I don't think any other Super club has the same problems as the Waratahs thus don't need to take the sort of action I've suggested.

Aside from which I think the Reds probably have more awareness of their Gold Coast market and north of Brisbane market whereas my belief is the Waratahs are too focussed on their GPS old boy RM Williams wearing, Ralph Lauren shirt long sleeve shirt tucked in the jeans supporters who work in finance in the CBD and comes down to the SFS on a friday night for a few beers before hitting up the IVY and Kings Cross. Qlds people are more passionate about 'state' based teams (look at State of Origin) and the name 'QLD REDS' has a great market presence.... but everyone knows NSW is really just 'Sydney'. Qld don't need to change their name but if they wanted too, good luck to them. My point was NSW should look at other options if the supporters are indeed fickle and the organisation needs to shake things up.

 

[TOCC]

I think it's a massive misconception that NSW/Sydney fans are fickle, they are no different to any other city

 

[fatprop]

Waves - Because in Qld and Act for example I would suggest that their supporters 'support' them and they are not as fickle as Sydney people thus no need to consider my proposal to increase fan base and attract people to the game and franchise as a supporter and try something out of the box to broaden the horizons of the franchise and perhaps get the team playing a more attractive style of rugby. I don't think any other Super club has the same problems as the Waratahs thus don't need to take the sort of action I've suggested.

Aside from which I think the Reds probably have more awareness of their Gold Coast market and north of Brisbane market whereas my belief is the Waratahs are too focussed on their GPS old boy RM Williams wearing, Ralph Lauren shirt long sleeve shirt tucked in the jeans supporters who work in finance in the CBD and comes down to the SFS on a friday night for a few beers before hitting up the IVY and Kings Cross. Qlds people are more passionate about 'state' based teams (look at State of Origin) and the name 'QLD REDS' has a great market presence.... but everyone knows NSW is really just 'Sydney'. Qld don't need to change their name but if they wanted too, good luck to them. My point was NSW should look at other options if the supporters are indeed fickle and the organisation needs to shake things up.

everyone (ie Sydney-ites) know that Australia is really just Sydney, if you aren't in Sydney you are just camping

 

[chasmac]

Waves - Because in Qld and Act for example I would suggest that their supporters 'support' them and they are not as fickle as Sydney people thus no need to consider my proposal to increase fan base and attract people to the game and franchise as a supporter and try something out of the box to broaden the horizons of the franchise and perhaps get the team playing a more attractive style of rugby. I don't think any other Super club has the same problems as the Waratahs thus don't need to take the sort of action I've suggested.

Aside from which I think the Reds probably have more awareness of their Gold Coast market and north of Brisbane market whereas my belief is the Waratahs are too focussed on their GPS old boy RM Williams wearing, Ralph Lauren shirt long sleeve shirt tucked in the jeans supporters who work in finance in the CBD and comes down to the SFS on a friday night for a few beers before hitting up the IVY and Kings Cross. Qlds people are more passionate about 'state' based teams (look at State of Origin) and the name 'QLD REDS' has a great market presence.... but everyone knows NSW is really just 'Sydney'. Qld don't need to change their name but if they wanted too, good luck to them. My point was NSW should look at other options if the supporters are indeed fickle and the organisation needs to shake things up.

You can't get into the Ivy with your RM's

 

[barbarian]

Yeah sorry Skippy that is absolute rubbish.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I don't think the Tahs have to change their playing style, per se. If playing a forward domination, field position style wins you games of footy then there is no reason to change it. It worked pretty well for Knuckles when he was in charge of the Reds, after all. What I think the Tahs need to do (and my team the Force, if I'm honest) is to work out what their actual game plan is. From there you can recruit the types of players who fit into that system and then train for it. You build a team culture around it. You can't tell me that there isn't the supply of players in NSW who you could build a mighty forward pack around and an intelligent halves combination.

With the amount of players coming out of the schools and club system in NSW every year it could be done, even if you have to get a bunch of kids and cop some floggings for a couple of seasons. It would be accepted by the faithful if progress was being shown. I feel like the Tahs have tread water to a degree over the last 3-4 seasons, not failing so to speak, but neither have they progressed.

I had some optimism about the Tahs at the beginning of the season, with their robust forward play and physical domination. Then they got touched up by the Cru and went into their shells. It's like they don't have the confidence to stamp their style of game on the opposition. For all of his great qualities, perhaps it was a failing of Waugh. Maybe they were too afraid of failure to succeed.

 

[chasmac]

Below is an article I just read on Rugby Heaven.
4 things stand out for me with this article

1) Why has NSW handed the community rugby programme to the ARU ? I get the feeling there are lessons to be learnt in this article for the waratah administration.

2) Where is the accessibility to Hickey. SMH is a NSW paper with the QLD coach doing the guest columns. McKenzie also interacts on twitter.

3) McKenzie deserves all the success he gets. There is alot in this article that presents the QLD coach in a good light. Still thinking about the grassroots on the eve of his biggest game for the year for example.

4) What were the things that stopped McKenzie from getting the same sort of groundswell / results / passion / crowds when he was the coach of the Tah's. If the Tah's need a case study to right the ship then they simply need to look North.


Every voice counts, especially yours June 30, 2011 - 12:52PM

Some players love feedback. Others avoid it.

In the world of service provision and entertainment, you would expect that feedback might be one of the most important day-to-day functions.

Earlier this week I was striding past a very large group of kids enjoying the Reds Fan Banner at a Queensland Rugby coaching clinic and I was approached by a well-meaning father who offered his best wishes for the weekend.

Advertisement: Story continues below I could have nodded and kept striding but I chose to stop and extend the discussion around how the clinic was going. Despite not my exact department or my area of responsibility, sometimes it's worth soliciting information and passing it back to help others.

The conversation was interesting on a couple of levels.

He asked me why the kids' clinics in Queensland featured Reds players, gear and branding. He made the observation that he actually flew his kids to New South Wales, where they attended a similar clinic, although the difference was the kids down there were all branded as Wallabies and it was run by the ARU.

I explained that the QRU had retained its community rugby program whereas the NSWRU had given it back to the ARU to run. In terms of feedback, I scurried back to the office and informed our chief executive and community rugby general manager.

This was good stuff because we all already knew that community rugby was the engine behind the Reds and importantly, the QRU had preserved this situation to maximise the power of rugby in Queensland.

For the organisation, seeing the general public being able to recognise a pathway and connecting with our brand is very important to us. Aside from the structural messages, it's important also to seek feedback as you will never actually know when the next most important piece of information is going to arrive. You always need to be looking and importantly listening.

The resurgence of rugby in Queensland is way more than the Reds winning games.

The Reds games at Suncorp Stadium are an event. There are only eight nights (maybe one or two more if you are lucky) a year to maximise income and to interact with our fans through partnership engagement at games.

Maximising the image and perception of Queensland Rugby during this time is critically important.

In the ideal world, the winning and losing should not be the only thing on offer and the QRU can take a significant bow in terms of how our game days are marketed and run.

You don't get record crowds just by winning games. You get it by understanding the needs and wants of the fans - you listen to them and importantly you watch them.

From the CEO down, the event is driven weeks in advance - messages, themes, videos, music ambience – it's not left to chance.

At the end of the night there is the opportunity for feedback. A list arrives on Monday afternoon detailing everything that could be done better and sometimes it's as simple as a security guard standing in the wrong spot.

The point is that everything is part of the rugby experience and how our fans are treated and what they remember is critical – we want them to have fun; we want their emotional attachment and the bottom line is we want them to want to come back.

Our very diligent CEO spends the night watching the crowd like a hawk. He monitors their connectivity with the events on the field and off it.

I suggest you all try it some time. Turn around in your stadium seat and look at the faces of the people and see if they are actually engaged.

He is relentless about the details. If it's not right, there is work to be done ironing out how it can be done better. There is a great opportunity to get real feedback from the coal face and remember 80 per cent of communication is non-verbal so using your eyes is critical.

The team also gets significant feedback – granted not always nice. It doesn't matter whether it's from the media, fan mail, the person in the street – it's all good stuff provided you understand the messages and do something about it.

Bad feedback needs urgent and aggressive attention. Good feedback reinforces good behaviour so it's passed on.

We have developed many true ambassadors for the Reds and for rugby within the playing group and this is a result of everyone understanding their roles beyond just playing rugby.

I got passed a letter by a very concerned fan early in the year, just after our terrible loss the 'Tahs. She gave me the letter and I suspected what it was.

I asked her if she wrote feedback for me when we won? The letter was honest, fair and essentially questioned the attitude of the performance which we could not hide from.

I accepted her feedback for what it was. Perception is reality so you need to do something about it.

She wrote to me again some weeks later and passed on her congratulations and said she wasn't going to write again. She had already done her bit for the Reds in 2011.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/r...ially-yours-20110630-1gs3i.html#ixzz1QoTSnqM0

 

[daz]

I think it's a massive misconception that NSW/Sydney fans are fickle, they are no different to any other city

Not sure about that TOCC. I'm willing to say I am on the fence with the Rebels supporters because even though they struggled badly, they still had good support. Let's see in a year or so if that remains the same.

For mine, the Force fans really dismantle your comment. Week in week out they are there, regardless of ladder position and playing style. Force fans are not fickle. They are obsessive (in a good way!)