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tahs turnaround

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The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Chasmac, that's an interesting article. It would be interesting to talk to Link, once his coaching days are over, and have him compare and contrast the culture of the teams he has coached and their back office organisations.
 

rugbysmartarse

Alan Cameron (40)
Re: the McKenzie article and Chas's point 4

the main thing I took out of the article is that the key to the business success of the reds is not in the players or the coach, but the CEO and his team. in particular this: "The point is that everything is part of the rugby experience and how our fans are treated and what they remember is critical – we want them to have fun; we want their emotional attachment and the bottom line is we want them to want to come back."
That is the key omission from the waratahs games - as I discussed with Ewen (God I love twitter) all I get for my $40 is a seat at a sports ground and "walking on sunshine". If I'm lucky, a free advanced copy of SMH. There is no focus on making the game a night out anymore.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Not sure about that TOCC. I'm willing to say I am on the fence with the Rebels supporters because even though they struggled badly, they still had good support. Let's see in a year or so if that remains the same.

For mine, the Force fans really dismantle your comment. Week in week out they are there, regardless of ladder position and playing style. Force fans are not fickle. They are obsessive (in a good way!)

Daz: The actual numbers were posted here some weeks back (I forget the thread), but it's a fact that Force home crowd averages in number have declined significantly from 2006 to 2011. And it wasn't just the "honeymoon" first year (of existence) to second year drop, the drop continued more or less sequentially right through to 2010, and I think plateaued in 2011.
 
D

daz

Guest
Well if that is what the numbers say, fair enough. All I know is that when I go to a game, the stadium is rocking and rolling with the sea of blue and there are not too many empty seats.

Perhaps the sheer wall of noise in the stadium makes the crowd seem bigger than it really is......
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
Didn't they move to a smaller stadium? I think that might affect the crowd numbers...
 

chasmac

Alex Ross (28)
Re: the McKenzie article and Chas's point 4

the main thing I took out of the article is that the key to the business success of the reds is not in the players or the coach, but the CEO and his team. in particular this: "The point is that everything is part of the rugby experience and how our fans are treated and what they remember is critical – we want them to have fun; we want their emotional attachment and the bottom line is we want them to want to come back."
That is the key omission from the waratahs games - as I discussed with Ewen (God I love twitter) all I get for my $40 is a seat at a sports ground and "walking on sunshine". If I'm lucky, a free advanced copy of SMH. There is no focus on making the game a night out anymore.

I agree regarding the CEO. There are many little things that the QLDers are getting right that NSW is not getting right. They all equate to a vastly different experience for the respective fans.

Tah's still made the finals but the end of year AGM's for the 2 teams are going to be chalk and cheese.
Crowd numbers are a good proxy for fan satisfaction levels and if they think they are getting value for memberships and attendance.

Posters here agree that there is improvement to be made ar the Tah's. The actual endpoint is fairly clear (give or take). The Who and How and When are the unknown and interesting things about this problem. Because I am a cynic, I will add that there could be an if attached to the problems.

Finally, Because there is a need to get yet another 9/10 combination for next year, the process could start simply by getting the recruiting right. Shame Kurtley has gone South.
 

rugbysmartarse

Alan Cameron (40)
everything needs to be looked at.

Marketing: mud smeared tahs on the back of taxis - can we do anything better than that?

Promotion: the tahs do a lot of small scale community stuff, but none of it is promoted. They should make fan days a better event at times when people can turn up with kids. can players get on radio stations, or TV, anwhere to get the brand in front of people? There was an improvement this year, but could go further

Event management: no external bars, no external entertainment, no curtain raiser/pre game show, no half time show, no post game show, no food offer, problematic drink offer, no music, no pumping up of the crowd, no generation of spectator dwell - all this leads to no atmosphere

Merchandising: push more high uptake, low cost merch - hats and scarves. why not tah blue hoodies? why not proper cold weather jackers with blue piping/fringing/lining? Why not generate merchandise people will wear to the game and out after? it's too cold to wear a thin lycra replica shirt as outerwear, so even anyone wearing their tah gear has a jacket over it.

Recruitment: Enough has been said on this - I wont take it further, but you get my drift
 
S

Skippy

Guest
Yeah sorry Skippy that is absolute rubbish.

Silly me for writing on a discussion forum and suggesting an alternative when clearly you only need to submit 6 words. Your objective well thought out and presented response has done me over. :)
 

matty_k

Peter Johnson (47)
Yeah sorry Skippy that is absolute rubbish.

I'm sorry Barbarian but Skippy has a point (kind of). That bit about who they are aiming for within Sydney is rubbish.

Try being a Waratahs supporter outside of the Greater Sydney Area.
We get basically nothing. One maybe two trial matches somewhere else in the state each year. Aside from that you hear or see nothing.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
You mean moving from the 50,000 Subiaco oval to the 14,000 NiB stadium? Yeah, maybe..... :)

Daz, between 2006 and 2011 Western Force crowds declined 43%..

The actual capacity of NIB stadium is around 20'500, the average crowd of the Western Force in there very last season at Subiaco(2009) was 17'858, this then declined further in there first year at NIB stadium to 17,020(2010). Im lead to believe the latest figures for 2011 indicates the Force dropped even further to 16'201.


Back the the point, i dont believe NSW/Sydney fans are any more fickle then anywhere else in the country.. WA crowds have almost halved in 6 years, Brumbies crowds are now pulling in as low as 11'000, QLD crowds in the past have been quite paltry when the team was performing badly. Melbourne is to early to asses, but i cant imagine they will be any different to the Force if they dont develop a brand of football that people enjoy to watch.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
everything needs to be looked at.

Marketing: mud smeared tahs on the back of taxis - can we do anything better than that?

Promotion: the tahs do a lot of small scale community stuff, but none of it is promoted. They should make fan days a better event at times when people can turn up with kids. can players get on radio stations, or TV, anwhere to get the brand in front of people? There was an improvement this year, but could go further

Event management: no external bars, no external entertainment, no curtain raiser/pre game show, no half time show, no post game show, no food offer, problematic drink offer, no music, no pumping up of the crowd, no generation of spectator dwell - all this leads to no atmosphere

Merchandising: push more high uptake, low cost merch - hats and scarves. why not tah blue hoodies? why not proper cold weather jackers with blue piping/fringing/lining? Why not generate merchandise people will wear to the game and out after? it's too cold to wear a thin lycra replica shirt as outerwear, so even anyone wearing their tah gear has a jacket over it.

Recruitment: Enough has been said on this - I wont take it further, but you get my drift

Great post.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Daz, between 2006 and 2011 Western Force crowds declined 43%..

The actual capacity of NIB stadium is around 20'500, the average crowd of the Western Force in there very last season at Subiaco(2009) was 17'858, this then declined further in there first year at NIB stadium to 17,020(2010). Im lead to believe the latest figures for 2011 indicates the Force dropped even further to 16'201.


Back the the point, i dont believe NSW/Sydney fans are any more fickle then anywhere else in the country.. WA crowds have almost halved in 6 years, Brumbies crowds are now pulling in as low as 11'000, QLD crowds in the past have been quite paltry when the team was performing badly. Melbourne is to early to asses, but i cant imagine they will be any different to the Force if they dont develop a brand of football that people enjoy to watch.

Thanks TOCC. If we keep highlighting these facts, perhaps gradually it will come to be understood that if the majority of the Australian rugby franchises don't start running their businesses much, much better than they have been for about the last 5+ years, there will soon enough arrive a very serious financial and general viability crisis for the code as a whole.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Thanks TOCC. If we keep highlighting these facts, perhaps gradually it will come to be understood that if the majority of the Australian rugby franchises don't start running their businesses much, much better than they have been for about the last 5+ years, there will soon enough arrive a very serious financial and general viability crisis for the code as a whole.

I wonder how many more times the ARU can bail out a state Union. The money tree in the ARUs backyard is not limittless and with the RWC this year it may look a bit bare anyway. The State Unions MUST get their shit together and start to manage themselves more professionally as the Reds have. One cannot be anything but impressed with Carmichael at the Reds.
 
D

daz

Guest
if the majority of the Australian rugby franchises don't start running their businesses much, much better than they have been for about the last 5+ years, there will soon enough arrive a very serious financial and general viability crisis for the code as a whole.

I have to take issue with this RH. The implication is that the ARU and state unions are being willfully negligent in running each team as a business. I agree that there is a stuffed shirt brigade that abhors change, but to continually bang on about how fucked up the code is in this country is a bit much.

I have 2 cases in opposition to your assertion.

1) A League/NBL/NRL. How many teams have come and gone over the years in each of these codes? The A League over the last 5 years or so is a revolving door of teams. Are they poorly run? Soccer is the biggest sport in the world yet our teams are on the whole, crying poor.

2) Port Adelaide in the AFL: Just received 9 million dollars to prop up the club. This is the second installment as 2 million was given a couple of years ago. This is a premiership team in one of the heartland regions of AFL. Are they running a good business? Let's not even talk about Footscray/Melbourne/Richmond who have been propped up finacially for years. This from the most financially successful code in the country.

Are there issues in the ARU? Sure. But let's acknowledge other codes have issues as well.

Last questions: How many Oz rugby franchises have folded since professionalism? How many teams in other codes in the same period? It's not all bad, my friend....
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Australian rugby is significantly different to the other codes in many ways, but primarily the fact that the grassroots portion of the game is still fully integrated with the professional arm of the game.. The Rebels been the single exception to this..

What this means is that the failure of a club in rugby union is going to have far greater ramifications(on the respective sport) then a A-League club or AFL club folding..

Grassroots and professional rugby share the same liabilities and therefore inherit the same risk, it's hard to fathom what sort of domino effect having one of the Australian unions collapse would cause on club rugby in that state. However, it's not all a risk, it is also a fantastic asset as the latest QRU seemed to have discovered, they have implemented the seemingly 'All roads lead to Ballymore' practice, ACT use to be the leaders in this department but have fallen over in recent years.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Thanks TOCC. If we keep highlighting these facts, perhaps gradually it will come to be understood that if the majority of the Australian rugby franchises don't start running their businesses much, much better than they have been for about the last 5+ years, there will soon enough arrive a very serious financial and general viability crisis for the code as a whole.

That is absolutely right. The problem with implementing deep organisational change is that there is a kind of event horizon. The existing management can't conceive of a better way of working, otherwise they'd be doing it, so they see no need for change, and are institutionally perplexed by their lack of success. Sound familiar?
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
That is absolutely right. The problem with implementing deep organisational change is that there is a kind of event horizon. The existing management can't conceive of a better way of working, otherwise they'd be doing it, so they see no need for change, and are institutionally perplexed by their lack of success. Sound familiar?

Very astute assessment, and largely correct IMO Groucho. And explains this: the only RU that has modelled up and delivered a strong 'business revival and new strategic plan for growth' that actually is showing real results is manifestly the Reds, and here's the thing, that solely occurred through a near-total-bankruptcy that turfed out virtually every single QRU board director and senior manager and all coaches. Just makes your point a different way: the existing state/territory RU management's are not responding adequately, but they aren't because they can't, so, sadly (and dangerously), a serious crisis is the only realistic route to the type of change that is essential to rebuild these businesses.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
The Brumbies were the only team not to record a loss last year... so they've generally done well...

This year they will record a loss after seeing the lowest crowds since 1999... and much of that has to do with what's also happened off the field...

They should bounce back... the Brumbies have been the #1 sporting franchise in the ACT since their inception, and with a bit of success the crowds will return...
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I have to take issue with this RH.

Indeed daz, you can take issue with it, but I believe it is factually based and correct. Aside from the Reds' - a make-over phoenix arisen from the ashes of a virtual RU collapse - which established RU in Australia has measurably been able to properly grow its business and crowd base over the last 5 years? Aside from the very recent (only 2 years) Reds' crowd increments, which local franchise is not experiencing serious, material crowd numbers declines? And, like it or not, patronise them or otherwise, it's the rugby fans that directly (via gate) and indirectly (via sponsors that want to get to gate and TV eyeballs) that pay the overheads, wages, etc in this business and determine its core viability. Declining fan base = (over time) declining RU income base. Declining income base = cutbacks and vicious circles of lowered investment and player/playing quality that will heighten rugby's already declining competitiveness vs other codes, and its very commercial viability, etc. Just look at where we are heading now with coming 'salary caps', 30 only S15 squads (a reckless and dangerous policy IMO), etc, this is all driven at core by income shortages and an obvious lack of true long-term rugby code income growth (unlike, for example, that experienced by the well-led AFL).

Now, granted, many rugby fanatics and passionates absolutely don't like to hear of the above. They'd quite understandably preference a more player-centric, immediate discussion like: who should be in the squad next week, etc, and there's a huge place for that, of course. But I have found that the passionates tend to believe that Aus rugby, like a loveable and cuddly evergreen aunt that has always warmed the home fire, will simply always be there for them, it is just going to go on forever and ever and (for me and others here) to question that implicit comfort is annoying and threatening. And that's fine, I just don't think that happy assumption correlates with the hard facts of rugby's actual situation in Australia today. In fact, I think it breeds a dangerous complacency (tied to gradually lowered expectations of excellence of outcomes) in not demanding essential improvements in the way the game is led and managed.

The implication is that the ARU and state unions are being willfully negligent in running each team as a business.

At NO point have I ever, ever said these business were wilfully negligent. I have said that in many, many (though not all) cases, leadership and management of multiple Aus rugby franchises is second rate and is not achieving good-enough results for their fans, sponsors and other stakeholders. And, to be fair, this particular discussion came about as you and DPK sought comfort that it was merely a down-shift in stadia sizes that largely explained the Force's major sequential crowd declines over recent years, and I believe that analysis is incorrect and misleading.

I agree that there is a stuffed shirt brigade that abhors change, but to continually bang on about how fucked up the code is in this country is a bit much.

Then don't tune in to my (tiny) radio station. What I find really encouraging is that today, unlike 2010, there are many good and thoughtful posts coming through here (and elsewhere, see The Roar, Wayne Smith, etc) debating how code management could be really improved in this country amidst the recognition that many managements are clearly letting down their fans and jeopardising their support and the code more generally.

I have 2 cases in opposition to your assertion.......Are there issues in the ARU? Sure. But let's acknowledge other codes have issues as well. ....Last questions: How many Oz rugby franchises have folded since professionalism? How many teams in other codes in the same period? It's not all bad, my friend....

Sorry, but I honestly fail to see how taking some kind of satisfaction that other (btw more financially solid and successful, in code market share terms) codes have their problems and issues should make us sit back and say 'hey, rugby's not alone in having problems' and get some encouragement from that. What's that do for rugby except maybe drug us up to more complacency? And that no rugby codes 'have folded' since professionalism (though a few years back the NSWRU nearly did, and in 2009 the QRU effectively did fold), is like saying the Australian economy must be in good hands as there hasn't been many huge bankruptcies in the last few years; the lack of complete disasters doesn't in any sense underpin an assessment that there are no serious problems worth bothering about.

The big irony is that the 2011 team you (like me) are so happy about is a case of a major positive rescue plan from the jaws of sheer leadership incompetence recklessly left unaltered through complacency over many years. Were it not for that rescue and the totally new management brought in, unarguably Australian rugby would be in far worse position than it is today.
 
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