Rob42
John Solomon (38)
SMH says 7,400
Super Rugby round 4 - Waratahs vs Force - Sunday 13 March 2pm @ Leichhardt Oval
- Thread starter Braveheart81
- Start date
pissedoffihavetoregister
Bill Watson (15)
What was wrong with Porecki and Gordon?
This is the biggest frustration for me.
Just a lack of composure after a big linebreak when a try is on offer a phase or so later.
We try and throw a miracle pass when the percentage play is to take the tackle and have front foot ball with an offside line and potentially half the opposition still getting back onside.
We survived with a load of third stringers by the 2nd half and we weren't that good in the first half. We just took our kicks (unlike other games in the wet ffs) We didn't look like building any pressure as the phases built, we were just one phase closer to a turnover.
We have no plan after 4 phases, there was no plan, no options given to our 10. It is just one out stuff from the pigs or lateral passes under pressure hoping the receiver can win a one on one ie Perese (who is now being heavily marked)
I don't understand what Foketi is trying to do most of the time
Our kicking game was challenged because Grant doesn't have a kicking game, Gordon has been our escape valve, so no box kicks ie less options to clear. Donaldson was the the obvious option and enjoyed a load of pressure
What was positive was the work rate and attitude in defence, Mataele makes a break in the 2nd half and they worked their arses off to chase and snuff it out
The work to get off their arses and get back in the defensive line was impressive throughout the game.
Horton made his throws and our two starting props look to just keep improving
Wilson
Michael Lynagh (62)
Hamstring for Gordon, 3-4 weeks apparently. Porecki was a groin, haven't seen any info on how long he's out for.
Observations from the game yesterday:
Solid crowd and a great afternoon of rugby. Glad the weather held off. It was pretty humid and the players were certainly hurting in the second half. I think some of the reason the game fell away a bit was due to a number of players cramping up etc.
After letting in an early try with a poor missed tackle by HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), the Tahs were really good in the first half. Putting points on late in the half with the penalty goal and try was crucial.
I think Murphy was pretty lenient on the Force scrum in the first half. There were a few times that the Tahs clearly had ascendency and somehow he penalised them and not the Force. That turned around substantially as the game went on. The starting Tahs scrum is actually pretty strong this year. Angus Bell's scrummaging has come along in leaps and bounds. He's turning into a really complete player who is just dynamic around the field.
Charlie Gamble was excellent again.
Will Harrison is the key to the Tahs attack. He takes the ball to the line and has a good passing game. Far more of the playmaking came through him whether it was popping up at first receiver or running the play out wider.
The Tahs really took their foot off the gas in the second half and let the Force back into it when they should have put the game out of reach. A few of these were discipline issues where giving away penalties leapfrogged the Force down the field again.
The Tahs needed some more spark off the bench to help get them home which didn't really come.
Overall though, considering the players missing and the late changes that was a really pleasing win from the Tahs.
Solid crowd and a great afternoon of rugby. Glad the weather held off. It was pretty humid and the players were certainly hurting in the second half. I think some of the reason the game fell away a bit was due to a number of players cramping up etc.
After letting in an early try with a poor missed tackle by HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), the Tahs were really good in the first half. Putting points on late in the half with the penalty goal and try was crucial.
I think Murphy was pretty lenient on the Force scrum in the first half. There were a few times that the Tahs clearly had ascendency and somehow he penalised them and not the Force. That turned around substantially as the game went on. The starting Tahs scrum is actually pretty strong this year. Angus Bell's scrummaging has come along in leaps and bounds. He's turning into a really complete player who is just dynamic around the field.
Charlie Gamble was excellent again.
Will Harrison is the key to the Tahs attack. He takes the ball to the line and has a good passing game. Far more of the playmaking came through him whether it was popping up at first receiver or running the play out wider.
The Tahs really took their foot off the gas in the second half and let the Force back into it when they should have put the game out of reach. A few of these were discipline issues where giving away penalties leapfrogged the Force down the field again.
The Tahs needed some more spark off the bench to help get them home which didn't really come.
Overall though, considering the players missing and the late changes that was a really pleasing win from the Tahs.
I thought Ollie Callan was excellent for the Force.
He had that one really good run down the left edge but our scrum also struggled after he came on and he butchered at least one lineout throw.
Was a bit of both.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
*You're.
And the commentators can disagree all they want - he still dropped his bind. Fact.
Worth noting that Mitchell and Mehrts' scrum knowledge could be fit on the tip of a pin, and both Maloney and Harrison are second row so one step removed
Plus, you can't trust any of the commentators - Maloney and Harrison are Sydney boys, Mitchell was born there as well despite living in the Proto-State of Moreton Bay Penal Colony for years, and Mehrtens is from even FURTHER Over East than the rest.
Back to the scrum itself - was a loose bind the actual cause of the collapse? Only Murphy's opinion matters in the moment, and no I don't think he's right all the time.
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Kevin77
Fred Wood (13)
So disappointed with that.
The Tahs played for about 30 minutes and did damage.
We were just bang average for most of the game for the second week in a row.
Our back row was a mixed bag. Fines mixed the good with the bad.
Too difficult to talk about in any detail as it's hurting.
Season pretty much over already as we might win some of the remaining games but the Kiwi teams will annihilate us playing like that. Not enough points left to play for and if we keep playing like that we won't win many.
The Tahs played for about 30 minutes and did damage.
We were just bang average for most of the game for the second week in a row.
Our back row was a mixed bag. Fines mixed the good with the bad.
Too difficult to talk about in any detail as it's hurting.
Season pretty much over already as we might win some of the remaining games but the Kiwi teams will annihilate us playing like that. Not enough points left to play for and if we keep playing like that we won't win many.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Given it is my favourite topic, and the only part of rugby that really matters, let's look at the scrum progress during the game:
00:57 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) hinging. He dropped his bind under pressure, and overextended because he went in too low and Robertson was forced back a few inches.
04:10 - Force feed. Ball comes free after Force hooker drops to his knees before the ball went in. Tahs going forward, but let's play on.
11:57 - Force feed. Engage, struggle, collapse. Murphy wants a reset, states his desire to get the Robertson/HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) side higher, closer, and chasing their feet.
12:43 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Ball was ordered away by the ref, but the AR calls against Bell late for elbow down.
14:25 - Tahs feed (huzzah!). Scrum is level, stable, and the ball emerges under zero pressure.
23:05 - Tahs feed. Carbon copy of the one above - stable, level, play proceeds. No issues with binding or collapsing.
----- As a ref I'm now thinking we've had 2 Tahs feeds and things went off without a hitch, unlike the 3 previous. -----
25:10 - Tahs feed. And again: no issue despite a bit of movement in the front row. Ball comes free. Is a pattern forming?
27:32 - Force feed. Force penalised - the men in sky blue annihilate the Force scrum who decide not to rugby at that point.
----- Interesting to note that Force are packing very, very low on their own feed. On Tahs ball the scrum is much higher, level, and stable -----
35:42 - Tahs feed. Force penalised - another smashing at a scrum packed level and stable, and then whooshka!
----- Robertson replaced at the next restart. Halftime occurs soon after -----
42:12 - Force feed. Ball comes away after Force TH side folds inward.
44:45 - Force feed. Ball comes away after Force are again after pressure drives them back and turns them.
46:00 - Tahs feed. Holmes is on for Medrano. Scrum reset after wigging a bit just before feed.
46:47 - Tahs feed. Force penalised. Tahs drive forward, Force pop up under pressure.
----- At this point, the initial 2 penalties against the Tahs are a distant memory for officials. The picture is that the Tahs are stable and competent on their own ball, and gaining the upper hand on the Force's feed ----
51:16 - Tahs feed. Force reserve LHP tries to put pressure on but just heads upwards. Ball comes out.
Vailanu on for the Tahs
53:28 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Ball stuck under the front row, so Force LHP shifts his bind and drives upward to try and free it. Could have easily been penalised for driving up.
54:58 - Force feed. Goes down Force LH side on engage. Ref wants a reset. Due to a poor editorial choice from the OB van, hard to tell what actually happened.
55:40 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Holmes executes an up-and-down on Bell and draws the penalty. Force call a scrum.
----- Another point to note: the ref isn't ruling against the Force simply because the Tahs have shown some dominance through the middle of the game. He's still calling what he sees -----
57:07 - Force feed. Force penalised. Neither the Force LHP or HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) are bound particularly well on engagement. Elbows both pointing down. You could make a case either way - looks like an AR call based on Force LHP bind shifting down below HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)'s shoulder.
62:35 - Force feed. Tahs try to nudge it forward but ball comes out.
66:59 - Tahs feed. Scrum pops up as the pressure comes on, Force LH a little sideways but Tahs shearing.
67:48 - Tahs feed. Force put some pressure on but Harris picks up. Play on.
68:52 - not a scrum, but good refereeing - Murphy to Godwin (captain) "Mate if I have one more guy run up to me, and scream in my face, it'll be a penalty".
69:11 - Tahs feed. Scrum doesn't reach engagement as there is too much movement and Bell/Vailanu bail out. Tahs replacement THP is on.
69:42 - Tahs feed. Even scrum, lot of pressure. Front rows go down as Harris picks it up. Play on.
Tahs replacement LHP is on.
77:52 - Force feed. Free kick to Force for early engage by Tahs.
79:07 - Tahs feed. Force penalised. Force try to put pressure on too early and go straight to deck TH side as well as their LH elbow down and hooker on his knees.
Including resets:
Force fed the scrum 13 times - gained 4 penalties + 1 free kick and lost 2 penalties
Tahs fed the scrum 12 times - gained 3 penalties and lost 0 on their own feed.
Penalty count is 5.0-4.1 in favour of NSW, with a free kick being the .1 to the Force.
Overall it was a fairly even contest, but that is also ignoring the number of times the Force came away with the ball under significant pressure.
If, for example, the late call against Bell for his elbow/hinging from the AR was consistently applied, the Tahs could have had another 2 penalties easily as the Force went to deck before the ball came out.
The 2 penalties the Tahs gained at scrum time were fairly dominant, while the Force foxed quite well when under pressure. They also showed dominant moments, but the 2 scrums in the second quarter where Rodda and Thrush simply didn't give their front row enough support are telling in terms of lapse of concentration.
00:57 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) hinging. He dropped his bind under pressure, and overextended because he went in too low and Robertson was forced back a few inches.
04:10 - Force feed. Ball comes free after Force hooker drops to his knees before the ball went in. Tahs going forward, but let's play on.
11:57 - Force feed. Engage, struggle, collapse. Murphy wants a reset, states his desire to get the Robertson/HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) side higher, closer, and chasing their feet.
12:43 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Ball was ordered away by the ref, but the AR calls against Bell late for elbow down.
14:25 - Tahs feed (huzzah!). Scrum is level, stable, and the ball emerges under zero pressure.
23:05 - Tahs feed. Carbon copy of the one above - stable, level, play proceeds. No issues with binding or collapsing.
----- As a ref I'm now thinking we've had 2 Tahs feeds and things went off without a hitch, unlike the 3 previous. -----
25:10 - Tahs feed. And again: no issue despite a bit of movement in the front row. Ball comes free. Is a pattern forming?
27:32 - Force feed. Force penalised - the men in sky blue annihilate the Force scrum who decide not to rugby at that point.
----- Interesting to note that Force are packing very, very low on their own feed. On Tahs ball the scrum is much higher, level, and stable -----
35:42 - Tahs feed. Force penalised - another smashing at a scrum packed level and stable, and then whooshka!
----- Robertson replaced at the next restart. Halftime occurs soon after -----
42:12 - Force feed. Ball comes away after Force TH side folds inward.
44:45 - Force feed. Ball comes away after Force are again after pressure drives them back and turns them.
46:00 - Tahs feed. Holmes is on for Medrano. Scrum reset after wigging a bit just before feed.
46:47 - Tahs feed. Force penalised. Tahs drive forward, Force pop up under pressure.
----- At this point, the initial 2 penalties against the Tahs are a distant memory for officials. The picture is that the Tahs are stable and competent on their own ball, and gaining the upper hand on the Force's feed ----
51:16 - Tahs feed. Force reserve LHP tries to put pressure on but just heads upwards. Ball comes out.
Vailanu on for the Tahs
53:28 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Ball stuck under the front row, so Force LHP shifts his bind and drives upward to try and free it. Could have easily been penalised for driving up.
54:58 - Force feed. Goes down Force LH side on engage. Ref wants a reset. Due to a poor editorial choice from the OB van, hard to tell what actually happened.
55:40 - Force feed. Tahs penalised. Holmes executes an up-and-down on Bell and draws the penalty. Force call a scrum.
----- Another point to note: the ref isn't ruling against the Force simply because the Tahs have shown some dominance through the middle of the game. He's still calling what he sees -----
57:07 - Force feed. Force penalised. Neither the Force LHP or HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) are bound particularly well on engagement. Elbows both pointing down. You could make a case either way - looks like an AR call based on Force LHP bind shifting down below HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)'s shoulder.
62:35 - Force feed. Tahs try to nudge it forward but ball comes out.
66:59 - Tahs feed. Scrum pops up as the pressure comes on, Force LH a little sideways but Tahs shearing.
67:48 - Tahs feed. Force put some pressure on but Harris picks up. Play on.
68:52 - not a scrum, but good refereeing - Murphy to Godwin (captain) "Mate if I have one more guy run up to me, and scream in my face, it'll be a penalty".
69:11 - Tahs feed. Scrum doesn't reach engagement as there is too much movement and Bell/Vailanu bail out. Tahs replacement THP is on.
69:42 - Tahs feed. Even scrum, lot of pressure. Front rows go down as Harris picks it up. Play on.
Tahs replacement LHP is on.
77:52 - Force feed. Free kick to Force for early engage by Tahs.
79:07 - Tahs feed. Force penalised. Force try to put pressure on too early and go straight to deck TH side as well as their LH elbow down and hooker on his knees.
Including resets:
Force fed the scrum 13 times - gained 4 penalties + 1 free kick and lost 2 penalties
Tahs fed the scrum 12 times - gained 3 penalties and lost 0 on their own feed.
Penalty count is 5.0-4.1 in favour of NSW, with a free kick being the .1 to the Force.
Overall it was a fairly even contest, but that is also ignoring the number of times the Force came away with the ball under significant pressure.
If, for example, the late call against Bell for his elbow/hinging from the AR was consistently applied, the Tahs could have had another 2 penalties easily as the Force went to deck before the ball came out.
The 2 penalties the Tahs gained at scrum time were fairly dominant, while the Force foxed quite well when under pressure. They also showed dominant moments, but the 2 scrums in the second quarter where Rodda and Thrush simply didn't give their front row enough support are telling in terms of lapse of concentration.
Dismal Pillock
David Codey (61)
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Lightblue
Arch Winning (36)
I admire your dedicated analysis …
For me though, apart from a strong, solid scrum that doesn’t collapse, the referee’s interpretation on any one day is a match killer.
No one really knows what a penalty is for and the constant resetting wastes time and kills momentum of the game.
A full arm penalty for a poorly interpreted scrum collapse which is often a gift 3 points, is a joke really, considering what you may have to do to score a try for 5 points.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Fixed.
Agree that arbitrary-looking scrum penalties are a blight, but then so are multiple resets. You could make that case for a lot of ruck penalties as well in terms of randomness that people don't understand looking on.
It is important IMHO that refs look for material effect and not just ruling to the letter of the Law - which is why Rugby has Laws: interpretation. You don't ref every game exactly the same way because there are too many moving parts.
The WR (World Rugby) Law book runs to over 150 pages. The actual onfield Laws for all rugby are 93 pages. Add on another 2 pages for U19 variations and then another 10 pages for 7s and another 7 pages for 10s .... which is weirdly symbiotic, mathematically speaking.
It is all well and good to say "Well the professional refs get paid for this stuff so they should know everything!" just doesn't wash. Name me one other career where that is the expectation.
Certainly we don't seem to expect it of the players...
Lightblue
Arch Winning (36)
A good ref is not constantly looking for penalties to the letter of the law but always trying to let the game flow.
Unfortunately there aren’t too many good refs...
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Not a very inspiring game by either side. Not much attacking play to write home about and many times ended in errors in any case.
I thought Harris was best for the Tahs and I am starting to see why others have wraps on Donaldson. He has a pretty good all-round game at 10 and I won't be surprised if he overtakes the other contenders for the Wallabies by test time.
Bell is still coming along nicely but he was below his usual standard in the open in this game. Can't see the involvements others see with Harrison. Certainly solid at the back and more than adequate goal kicker (when not from the sideline). But not much else.
Pasitoa is going ok for the Force too. Does anyone else think that he didn't knock the ball on just before being replaced?
I thought Harris was best for the Tahs and I am starting to see why others have wraps on Donaldson. He has a pretty good all-round game at 10 and I won't be surprised if he overtakes the other contenders for the Wallabies by test time.
Bell is still coming along nicely but he was below his usual standard in the open in this game. Can't see the involvements others see with Harrison. Certainly solid at the back and more than adequate goal kicker (when not from the sideline). But not much else.
Pasitoa is going ok for the Force too. Does anyone else think that he didn't knock the ball on just before being replaced?
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I thought it came off his knees but the ref was closer than my TV screen. I think it was called because the ref thought it looked pretty ugly and he blew on suspicion.
Been saying for ages that Donaldson has potential. He just needs more time to develop. He reminds me a lot of Larkham the way he plays and has deceptive pace. Harris has been outstanding this year but there is a fair bit of competition for wallaby selection with Leota, Samu, Wilson, Swinton and Valetini all vying for two spots. Valetini the best so far.