Super Rugby AU Round 6 - Waratahs vs Reds @ SCG, Saturday 8 August 2020

[Cancelled Account]

Yeah - that’s fair. I would say though that given Qld & NSW are by far the biggest nursery’s and that the money available to Australian rugby players is relatively small by comparison to our competition, we aren’t going to stop losing players we want to keep any time soon.

We seem to be our own worst enemy. There’s a massive issue if we are not retaining the great players we breed, and are now forced to play unproven Colts players. That is not a grass roots or pathway issue, that’s a Red’s management, talent identification and culture issue.

 

[Hawko]

Two weeks ago the Tahs were absolutely pants against a not that good opposition. Last night they were fantastic. The night before the Rebels were outstanding after two average displays. Last week the Reds and Brumbies played with real intensity and this week they played with none. So what do we conclude?

The lack of consistent, week-to-week performance comes down to a lack of experience as a result of using players who have just not yet learned how to be consistent at this level. All five teams are playing with a big proportion of U-23's in their starting line-ups and even more on the bench. That outcome is due to the dire financial crisis that rugby has been in for 18 months (before that it was just critical rather than dire) where we financially have to use U-23's because we can't pay proper wages to mature players.

That means week-to-week results have become a lottery. Picking a winner of this comp is like picking the lotto numbers. The Brumbies and Rebels seem to have slightly more experience, so maybe they are more favoured, but picking winners is still very iffy.

I noted with absolute dismay that Ned Hanigan is off to play in Japan next year. Pushed to mature into a Wallaby way too early and then discarded in most people's eyes as hopeless, he has matured really well this year and been outstanding. And now, just as he enters his best years as a lock (25-30) he's off overseas and lost to Australian Rugby. Given how many people have had a hand in doing rugby down, the list of people we could blame runs to 100's of pages. Doesn't help. In a country where virtually all our best locks are overseas, who will we select to play against Whitelock this year? Someone from last year's U-20's?

 

[mst]

The lack of consistent, week-to-week performance comes down to a lack of experience as a result of using players who have just not yet learned how to be consistent at this level. All five teams are playing with a big proportion of U-23's in their starting line-ups and even more on the bench. That outcome is due to the dire financial crisis that rugby has been in for 18 months (before that it was just critical rather than dire) where we financially have to use U-23's because we can't pay proper wages to mature players.

That means week-to-week results have become a lottery. Picking a winner of this comp is like picking the lotto numbers. The Brumbies and Rebels seem to have slightly more experience, so maybe they are more favoured, but picking winners is still very iffy.

On the plus side, its making for some interesting games with unpredictable results and we are certainly seeing a whole bunch of newbies getting the opportunity.

The question that intrigues me and I am interested know what people think is it enough to keep you engaged and entertained week to week and may be get others interested in it?

I personally am enjoying the games (although both the Mst's are seeking counselling today and are feeling very lost and dirty as we enjoyed the way the Tahs played - its just wrong and unnatural! ).

IMHO if this was the starting point of a comp, in 2 years it will have matured (as with the players) and we could have some cracking rugby being played and a game growing. Not only is there a possibility that it could grow and should it secure more revenue it could bring back in and retain the "mature" players. Link this to the player all working towards a shot at the RWC, there would be direct links to club rugby as these young blokes would not be far removed from their old clubs (noting they are relatively young) juniors would be seeing pathway.

 

[Adam84]

We seem to be our own worst enemy. There’s a massive issue if we are not retaining the great players we breed, and are now forced to play unproven Colts players. That is not a grass roots or pathway issue, that’s a Red’s management, talent identification and culture issue.

Well it’s actually a COVID issue. Nonggor probably wouldn’t have played pre-COVID, however due to bio-security issues they can only select players from within the bubble. These guys are in that bubble because they’re contracted development players getting experience and training with the squad. They can’t just select guys from outside the squad and bring them in as depth at short notice because it requires weeks of isolation first.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

On the plus side, its making for some interesting games with unpredictable results and we are certainly seeing a whole bunch of newbies getting the opportunity.

The question that intrigues me and I am interested know what people think is it enough to keep you engaged and entertained week to week and may be get others interested in it?

I personally am enjoying the games (although both the Mst's are seeking counselling today and are feeling very lost and dirty as we enjoyed the way the Tahs played - its just wrong and unnatural! ).

IMHO if this was the starting point of a comp, in 2 years it will have matured (as with the players) and we could have some cracking rugby being played and a game growing. Not only is there a possibility that it could grow and should it secure more revenue it could bring back in and retain the "mature" players. Link this to the player all working towards a shot at the RWC, there would be direct links to club rugby as these young blokes would not be far removed from their old clubs (noting they are relatively young) juniors would be seeing pathway.

Exactly how I'm feeling about it all. To me this feels like a breath of fresh air and I'm enjoying the footy more with every week. I think it confirms to me that we can go our own way and with the exciting young talent coming through that the game has a brighter future than we originally thought. If we can get the likes of Fiji and/or some GRR clubs in the comp as well we've got a sustainable product going forward.

 

[Adam84]

I think we have all been patient for the 4 years and are immune to all the excuses. We hear about culture and the QLD pathway, but at the same time we have lost Kerevi, Rodda, Hockings, Lucas and Gordon. This whole Piccone thing could have been controlled but instead we go the battle with the most lucrative agent manager in Australia. We lose 2 wallabies and 3 junior wallabies in less than a year because Sam Cordingley doesn’t like the contract dollars that Piccone demands for elite players. This dispute needs to be resolved quickly because there are players like Chris Feaui-Sautia that we need to retain. You can’t run a successful business with amateur recruitment and a high turnover of elite players. We’ll be left with no wallabies in the next few years.

Hockings, Lucas and Gordon are not elite players. If you’re demanding the are paid as elite players then what 3 reds players take a pay cut for them?

those 3 that left didn’t leave because Sam cordingley didn’t value their worth, they had already agreed to a set amount, what they didn’t want is to take a pay cut as art of COVID, and they didn’t want uncertainty in getting paid what they had been contracted for. That’s not a Sam Cordingley problem, that’s an Australian Rugby problem.

 

[Derpus]

Can't see the Reds sitting down for a game against the Tahs. Reds really should win this with relative ease.

Wrong again, idiot.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Wrong again, idiot.

Don't think anyone outside of the Tahs' dressing shed saw that coming. As much as it stings, great to see that any team can get up over any other team.

 

[Adam84]

We have a competition where on the day any team can win, and people are carrying on like its the end of the world.

 

[Up the Guts]

We have a competition where on the day any team can win, and people are carrying on like its the end of the world.

If there was one or two teams dominating people would be saying we don’t have enough players for a proper competition. Just can’t win.

 

[Cancelled Account]

Well it’s actually a COVID issue. Nonggor probably wouldn’t have played pre-COVID, however due to bio-security issues they can only select players from within the bubble. These guys are in that bubble because they’re contracted development players getting experience and training with the squad. They can’t just select guys from outside the squad and bring them in as depth at short notice because it requires weeks of isolation first.

So what you’re saying is that a squad of 30ish which allows for 2 players per position and we still need to raid the Colts without Prem experience. Poor talent identification I’d say. COVID not the issue, more so poor planning. It’s also been said we have ONLY HAD 4 YEARS to plan under the new regime. What a load of shit.

 

[Cancelled Account]

Hockings, Lucas and Gordon are not elite players. If you’re demanding the are paid as elite players then what 3 reds players take a pay cut for them?

those 3 that left didn’t leave because Sam cordingley didn’t value their worth, they had already agreed to a set amount, what they didn’t want is to take a pay cut as art of COVID, and they didn’t want uncertainty in getting paid what they had been contracted for. That’s not a Sam Cordingley problem, that’s an Australian Rugby problem.

Elite was marginally extreme for these Australian players. I’m not too sure how much more elite there is unless our World Team is playing Mars. And you’re right, they didn’t leave because of the money. On second hand information they left for reasons that are far more concerning than the dollars. And these reasons are precisely why QRU needs a big fucking overhaul.

 

[Braveheart81]

So what you’re saying is that a squad of 30ish which allows for 2 players per position and we still need to raid the Colts without Prem experience. Poor talent identification I’d say. COVID not the issue, more so poor planning. It’s also been said we have ONLY HAD 4 YEARS to plan under the new regime. What a load of shit.

The issue is that you have 3 or 4 props out injured isn't it? (Hoopert, Nasser, Fotuaika and Smith).

Nonggorr is exactly where he should be. On a development squad contract and in a normal year would have not played Super Rugby, played in the Under 20 World Championships and played club rugby.

In a normal year the Reds would have potentially brought in an experienced player on a short term contract to fill the injury void. It's not possible this year under the COVID rules and I'm not sure why they would in what is a pretty meaningless comp.

 

[Cancelled Account]

Good luck with the merry-go-round Bon Voyage.

 

[Cancelled Account]

The issue is that you have 3 or 4 props out injured isn't it? (Hoopert, Nasser, Fotuaika and Smith).

Nonggorr is exactly where he should be. On a development squad contract and in a normal year would have not played Super Rugby, played in the Under 20 World Championships and played club rugby.

In a normal year the Reds would have potentially brought in an experienced player on a short term contract to fill the injury void. It's not possible this year under the COVID rules and I'm not sure why they would in what is a pretty meaningless comp.

Nongorr was not on Development Contract. He started training with squad a week ago.

 

[Braveheart81]

Nongorr was not on Development Contract. He started training with squad a week ago.

Hmm... fair enough.

The media about him this week was saying that he joined the squad after the COVID break.

 

[Rebels3]

He’s still someone that’s contracted to the Reds in some capacity, more importantly on the JobKeeper amount which would mean the majority of his wage would be subsidized by it. Bringing someone from outside the club would require new insurance to be paid, plus what ever wage is paid on top of it, JobKeeper would not cover this.

I think it was a fantastic opportunity for him and one he will be better for. It’s time to celebrate this.

There is also a decent chance if he did play Prems rugby and was called up from there on a normal basis, he’d still be the one dishing it up to most of the props in that grade, I fail to see why this is such an issue. This isn’t the 1970s anymore where some mysterious prop has been shearing sheep in western qld that hasn’t been noticed. He would of been in 100s of scrums at training against Tupou, etc. and obviously did a good enough job there to justify the decision. I’m looking forward to him learning from this and getting better.

 

[TSR]

Elite was marginally extreme for these Australian players. I’m not too sure how much more elite there is unless our World Team is playing Mars. And you’re right, they didn’t leave because of the money. On second hand information they left for reasons that are far more concerning than the dollars. And these reasons are precisely why QRU needs a big fucking overhaul.

But it all depends who your listening too, doesn’t it. And who you choose to believe. I heard for Hockings & Lucas it was 100% the money and that was it, pure and simple. For Rodda it was about the captaincy. Now my source could be wrong, but so could yours.

 

[Adam84]

Nongorr was not on Development Contract. He started training with squad a week ago.

That's incorrect, he has been training with the Reds since June

 

[Adam84]

So what you’re saying is that a squad of 30ish which allows for 2 players per position and we still need to raid the Colts without Prem experience. Poor talent identification I’d say. COVID not the issue, more so poor planning. It’s also been said we have ONLY HAD 4 YEARS to plan under the new regime. What a load of shit.

Nope, that's not what I said at all... Note in my comments that I emphasised the impact of COVID and biosecurity protocols limiting the ability to bring in players on short notice