South Africa restores race quotas

[Ruggo]

While I understand the motivation and can empathise with the sentiment behind whoever did write this, the reality is that not many white people are born into a history of serious oppresion, slavery and injustice.

The pendulum swings in the opposite direction and hopefully we are getting closer to the time where it finds equilibrium.

It never will find equalibrium because nobody is ready to show tollerance.

Racism is definetly a two way street. It will always be until merit is the only factor in judgment.

It will take a generation willing to draw a line in the sand and not pass its predjices onto it's youth and into the next generation. We must all learn to respect and accept our cultural differences for a start.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

One of the better statements I've seen on the subject Ruggo. Well played.

 

[PaarlBok]

I think nutrition from an early age is one huge issue because size becomes a (deciding) factor eventually.

The pick of Trevor Nyakane ifo Lourens Adriaanse the perfect qouta example. Luckily Trevor shot himself in the foot making a joke of your nutrition statement
Beeld

“Die herhaalde oortredings van spanprotokol,” is gister as die amptelike rede vir Nyakane se skielike weglating gegee.
Hy het glo verlede week ook ’n vlug na die Bok-oefenkamp verpas en sommer ook sonder toestemming ’n videosessie misgeloop, terwyl sy fiksheid ver benede peil is en sy “onophoudelike geëet” volgens bronne ’n probleem geword het sedert dié 24-jarige stut vroeër vanjaar ’n Bok geword het.

Lourens Adriaanse should have been in the sqaud from the start.

 

[Rassie]

Good post biltong. I used to rant a bit about the moral issues of the quota system and non merit selections, and to be fair, if I encounter an uninformed foreigner I will still sometimes point out the problems with the system. However, it's been so long now, and you can only rant so much. Eventually you have to accept what is and try to work within it.

SARU don't have infinite money, and the government are quite content to shout their mouths off rather than do anything to help, but really there are probably some smart things to be done at grass roots level to increase the amount of coloured (I use the term to include all ethnic groups Rassie, please don't shoot me) talent available. I think nutrition from an early age is one huge issue because size becomes a (deciding) factor eventually.

haha no problem Mank. And you mentioned the nutrition which is actually one of the major factors. Nutrition + genes equal height.

In rugby say what one will they are important because you can get killed as rugby is a contact sport all about intimidation. Survival of the fittest.

Now consider that SA avg height is 1.66m! It would have been lower if it wasn't for the afrikaners who have dutch genes (tallest nation in the world) and for the decendants from England who are quiete beefy themselves.

The problem is that the government is asking why xxx amount of players play Craven week and on lower levels but only a few make it to the senior teams. They think guys like Siyabonga Tom who was selected for SA schools and everything was good enough yet without realizing he was a 22yr old who could play with 17yr old kids. He was around 80kg's 1,78m. Now imagine the guys who is actually 17 and what their age or size would be? Players of color have one great weapon which is speed. Tell them to bulk up he lose hat speed and you sit with the Ndungane brothers and Breyton Paulse who lost pace due to bulking up. You will note the few black players that comes through speak very well english went to private schools and comes from a good background meaning they were fed properly.

You can build a million schools and clinics in the poor communities. All of them play rugby but where in the professional game is a guy who is 1.70m tall weigh 80 to 90 when their 20 going to end up? In a hospital?

 

[I like to watch]

I do not agree with that at all Rassie.
Averages are just that,it does not follow that all people match the average.
There are plenty of black/coloured people with the right physique to play Rugby.You make out that there are no black guys over 1.70m weighing more than 80kg,that is just not right.
It's typical that the Government is insisting that SARU do all the work for them,but as you know, that is par for the course there.
If they are going to be so hard line about quotas,they should be partnering with SARU to achieve the result they are seeking.

 

[Rassie]

The government wants the team 93 percent black African 7 percent other race groups.

There are not millions playing rugby. The Xhosa speaking population which is the smallest out african languages mostly play rugby. So you are sitting with in fact with more other race groups playing rugby than the black africans. How can you play a team according to demographics if the majority do not play the sport? You work that one out.

The other problem is the way SA play. If people ask me how far are we behind NZ in rugby I say about 57 years cause that is when they played the way way we play now. That was also when they fielded mostly players from European decent. The Moari's and the others of Pacific Island heritage plays with more flair and take more risks. NZ have combined the two and are what they are now.

Same with SA the non white players like to take risks but the problem is SA and the way rugby is played here is to minimize risk. Even got so far that the coaches of color who is suppose to play more expansive plays more risk limitation rugby than the old traditionalists.

The difference is the Moari's and Pacific Islanders are build for a contact sport like rugby. And no one can deny the fact they are one of the reason for NZ dominance. The thing in SA is they are not build as big. Look at Samoans such a tiny island playing contact sport all over the world for different countries and in the NFL.

Note Gives EBF (build), height, weight (metric and imperial) and name of many elite rugby players

Compare th EBF of players
Pos EBF H-met W-met H-imp lbs st-lb Clb Fnam Player
p11 508 181cm 92 kg 5'11" 203 14s 7 Mvovo,Lwazi
p11 451 175cm 79 kg 5' 9" 174 12s 6 Stm Gio. Aplon


to some international wingers
Pos EBF H-met W-met H-imp lbs st-lb Clb Fnam Player
p11 588 187cm 110kg 6' 2" 243 17s 5 Zeb Giov Venditti
p11 571 191cm 109kg 6' 3" 240 17s 2 CmA Napo Nalaga
p11 568 192cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Sca Geor North
p11 568 183cm 104kg 6' 0" 229 16s 5 LTg Mile Benjamin
p11 564 188cm 106kg 6' 2" 234 16s10 BTr Chri Loamanu
p11 559 188cm 105kg 6' 2" 231 16s 7 GWa Sean Lamont
p11 557 183cm 102kg 6' 0" 225 16s 1 Con Fetu Vainikolo
p11 556 189cm 105kg 6' 2" 231 16s 7 Chf Patr Osborne
p11 553 188cm 104kg 6' 2" 229 16s 5 Blu Geor Moala
p11 552 183cm 101kg 6' 0" 223 15s13 CfB Tom. James
p11 552 183cm 101kg 6' 0" 223 15s13 LTg Adam Thompstone
p11 552 181cm 100kg 5'11" 220 15s10 Chf Mari Nemani
p11 550 180cm 99 kg 5'11" 218 15s 8 Blu Fran Salii
p11 549 182cm 100kg 6' 0" 220 15s10 Mtp Timo Nagusa
p11 546 183cm 100kg 6' 0" 220 15s10 Cas Pier Lakafia
p11 545 178cm 97 kg 5'10" 214 15s 4 LTg Vere Goneva
p11 544 193cm 105kg 6' 4" 231 16s 7 CmA Aure Rougerie
p11 544 171cm 93 kg 5' 7" 205 14s 9 Zeb Sino Sinoti
p11 543 188cm 102kg 6' 2" 225 16s 1 Con Mark McCrea
p11 543 188cm 102kg 6' 2" 225 16s 1 Hln Hose Gear
p11 539 180cm 97 kg 5'11" 214 15s 4 Nth Noah Cato
p11 538 195cm 105kg 6' 5" 231 16s 7 Blu Fran Halai
p11 538 182cm 98 kg 6' 0" 216 15s 6 GWa DTH. Van Der Merwe
p11 537 188cm 101kg 6' 2" 223 15s13 GWa Rory Lamont
p11 536 192cm 103kg 6' 4" 227 16s 3 Hur Juli Savea
p11 536 183cm 98 kg 6' 0" 216 15s 6 Sca Andy Fenby
p11 535 187cm 100kg 6' 2" 220 15s10 Rbl Coop Vuna
p11 535 185cm 99 kg 6' 1" 218 15s 8 CmA Siti Sivivatu
p11 534 193cm 103kg 6' 4" 227 16s 3 Wat Isra Folau

Centers

p12 503 175cm 88 kg 5' 9" 194 13s12 Stm Juan De Jongh
to

p12 528 191cm 101kg 6' 3" 223 15s13 Stm Jean De Villiers
p12 588 182cm 107kg 6' 0" 236 16s12 Hln Ma`a Nonu
p12 549 193cm 106kg 6' 4" 234 16s10 CfB Jami Roberts
p12 522 182cm 95 kg 6' 0" 209 14s13 WFc Alfi Mafi
p12 522 178cm 93 kg 5'10" 205 14s 9 Lns Bria O`Driscoll
p12 520 196cm 102kg 6' 5" 225 16s 1 Bru Tevi Kuridrani
p12 520 175cm 91 kg 5' 9" 201 14s 5 SSh Sam. Tuitupou
p12 519 187cm 97 kg 6' 2" 214 15s 4 Con Davi McSharry
p12 519 187cm 97 kg 6' 2" 214 15s 4 Bul Jan. Serfontein
p12 519 185cm 96 kg 6' 1" 212 15s 2 Mun Ivan Dineen
p12 519 185cm 96 kg 6' 1" 212 15s 2 Hln Tama Ellison

You can see why De Jongh isn't much of a choice nor a Aplon

p 6 601 193cm 116kg 6' 4" 256 18s 4 Stm Duan Vermuelen
p 6 577 194cm 112kg 6' 4" 247 17s 9 Bul Jacq Potgieter
p 6 577 194cm 112kg 6' 4" 247 17s 9 Che Fran Uys
p 6 577 189cm 109kg 6' 2" 240 17s 2 CmA Elvi Vermuelen
p 6 576 198cm 114kg 6' 6" 251 17s13 Chf Ross Filipo
p 6 575 193cm 111kg 6' 4" 245 17s 7 Hur Faif Levave
p 6 575 193cm 111kg 6' 4" 245 17s 7 Stm Scha Burger
p 6 574 195cm 112kg 6' 5" 247 17s 9 Cas Pedr Wannenburg
p 6 574 188cm 108kg 6' 2" 238 17s 0 Mun CJ.. Stander
p 6 574 188cm 108kg 6' 2" 238 17s 0 CfB Luke Hamilton
p 6 574 188cm 108kg 6' 2" 238 17s 0 Lns Sean O`Brien
p 6 574 188cm 108kg 6' 2" 238 17s 0 Qin Maur Fa`asavalu
p 6 573 192cm 110kg 6' 4" 243 17s 5 Btz Iman Harinordoquy
p 6 573 192cm 110kg 6' 4" 243 17s 5 Wat Dave Dennis
p 6 573 185cm 106kg 6' 1" 234 16s10 Hln Jake Paringatai
p 6 573 185cm 106kg 6' 1" 234 16s10 Nth Ben. Nutley
p 6 572 187cm 107kg 6' 2" 236 16s12 Cru Rich McCaw

to a
p 6 540 187cm 101kg 6' 2" 223 15s13 Stm Siya Kolisi

Who is one of those 1 in a thousand gems. We can't ignore the fact that 60 percent of SA is unemployed and live in poverty. And its getting worse yet you want to build the future in a sport where guys and guys are getting bigger and bigger and yet your nations height is shrinking and shrinking

How effective is a smaller Brussouw with a Botha that cleans the ruck effectively to a Brussouw without him? 2009 was your answer. You saw against NZ when a backline player a prop and a smaller flank tried to clear McCaw of the ball? And they say size don't count. Of course it does like it counts in wrestling

 

[Mank]

I do not agree with that at all Rassie.
Averages are just that,it does not follow that all people match the average.
There are plenty of black/coloured people with the right physique to play Rugby.You make out that there are no black guys over 1.70m weighing more than 80kg,that is just not right.

I hear what you're saying but I think you're a little off the mark. I agree that in a perfect market, all things being equal, SA would easily find larger than average POC to succeed in rugby. But this isn't a perfect market. SA has a lot of domestic issues to overcome to produce talented black rugby players, on top of the physical size issue. It's just one factor of many.

Also, thing to consider is to ask yourself how many PI players there would be in the ABs if they had the average physique of a southern African? My guess is fewer.

It's typical that the Government is insisting that SARU do all the work for them,but as you know, that is par for the course there.
If they are going to be so hard line about quotas,they should be partnering with SARU to achieve the result they are seeking.

Agree totally with this. SARU should be looking to leverage some of this hot air to grow rugby in schools etc. The government should put money where their mouth is, so to speak. Of course I doubt that will happen, this is all cheap politicking for the upcoming elections as usual.

 

[PaarlBok]

Agree totally with this. SARU should be looking to leverage some of this hot air to grow rugby in schools etc. The government should put money where their mouth is, so to speak. Of course I doubt that will happen, this is all cheap politicking for the upcoming elections as usual.

To be really honest, the government should grow SPORT in schools. I have been this weekend at Swellendam. Your SA schools thrives on interschools rivalry. Watching Swellies vs Dasse (Riversdal) interschools. This include rugby, hockey and netball. The west and south cape schools all have this one important day. This is the aim the Government should start off all over SA. Trust me, Swellendam or Riversdal isnt big towns and myself really enjoy the "gees" spirit within the supporters and players of the two schools. Trust me we came a loooong way from the old days and the coloured supporters and players by far outnumber his white partner. Looking at them tackling the shite out of each other and just enjoy the sport with a pannekoek in the one hand and good old curry and rice in the other one and the smell of boerewors and braai meat all over the ground. This is what we should live for, just one day to forget about all our daylife shite and just enjoy sport like it should be.

SA Sport have no need for qoutas anymore. Its just a shite systemt and out dated and just plain wrong. It only bring unnecessary apartheid back to sport.

 

[PaarlBok]

Hoskins again init. He did it when Snor was selected as Bok coach, now he do it all over again.
Sport24

Hoskins unfazed by quota row

2014-06-24 11:27


Cape Town - South African Rugby Union (SARU) president Oregan Hoskins is unfazed by civil rights organisation AfriForum's threats to lay an official complaint with the International Rugby Board (IRB) after SARU urged Bok coach Heyneke Meyer to pick more black players.

AfriForum chief executive Kallie Kriel said IRB rules prohibited racial discrimination and political interference in rugby.

"SARU's instruction to the Springbok coach is a crude form of racial discrimination and an indication that SARU has surrendered to the quota threats of the minister of sport, Fikile Mbalula," Kriel told SAPA on Monday.

He said AfriForum's legal team would look into the possibility of opening a case with the International Court for Arbitration in Sport (CAS).

This comes after it was reported on Monday that Hoskins had sent a message to Meyer about having a greater representation of blacks, especially black Africans, in the national team.

Hoskins, who is also the vice-chairperson of the IRB, does not appear to be too worried about AfriForum's threats.

He told Tuesday's Cape Times that AfriForum had been writing to the IRB for a long time and that he was not going to react to them as it was not the first time they were doing it.

It is believed that the SARU Exco gave Hoskins the mandate to address the issue with Meyer following their meeting with the South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee (SASCOC) in Johannesburg last week.

SARU's performance and transformation agenda was examined at the meeting.

 

[Tex]

Quotas in sport are regressive and will cut SA sport down at the knees.

I understand that there are years of systematic oppression and racism that need correcting, but sport is one of the only areas of social life where one's experience of advantage/disadvantage isn't a defining feature in your ability to excel and succeed.

Politics and sport should rarely mix.

 

[PaarlBok]

Cosatu join the ship

Cosatu backs rugby quotas

2014-06-24 13:00



Johannesburg - Cosatu in the Western Cape firmly supports quotas in rugby and other sporting codes, it said on Tuesday.
"Cosatu in the Western Cape has been requested by some of the black players to speak on behalf of their particular interests," Congress of SA Trade Unions provincial secretary Tony Ehrenreich said in a statement.
"The players' unions clearly represent the majority of white players and speak mainly in the interest of these white players."
He said Cosatu's broader view was also to support quotas in all sporting codes.
"Cosatu calls for more representivity in all sporting codes, including more whites in soccer, as the national teams must represent the demographics of the whole country."
It was reported on Monday that SARU president Oregan Hoskins had sent a message to Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer about having a greater representation of blacks in the national team.
Hoskins said he personally delivered the message to Meyer.
"We need to give black players, specifically 'African blacks', more chances in the team," Hoskins said.
"I spoke to the coach and he agreed the time is right for this. I believe we will already see a change or two against Scotland this coming weekend."
Civil rights organisation AfriForum said it would submit an official complaint to the International Rugby Board (IRB) against the SA Rugby Union's proposed quota system.
AfriForum chief executive Kallie Kriel said IRB rules prohibited racial discrimination and political interference in rugby.
Ehrenreich said Cosatu rejected AfriForum's view as that of a racist cabal trying to defend the generational advantage of white players.
"The discussions on quotas were delayed because the administrators have allowed coaches to make decisions outside of the national interest," Ehrenreich said.
"This must stop, as the majority of South Africans demand more representative teams, in spite of cosy deals between black and white sports administrators."
The political leadership should also be more decisive in enforcing quotas in sporting codes, he said.

So Meyer picks chicken runners left, right and centre and now he have to pick qoutas. This leave no place for the hard working local SA player with a white skin.Just past stupid!

 

[I like to watch]

Don't pick the chicken runners for two years and see where you rank.
You guys will not be able to cope with being ranked behind Italy.
Happy to see you trial it!

 

[PaarlBok]

Don't pick the chicken runners for two years and see where you rank.
You guys will not be able to cope with being ranked behind Italy.
Happy to see you trial it!

Dont agree at all. We'll be in much better shape and will at least keep more players in SA. My current Bok team:
le Roux, Mvovo, Serfontein, Die Ellende, JPP, Boshoff, Reinach, Vermeulen, Alberts, Brussouw, Matfield, Flippie, Jannie, Battleship, Beast.

 

[Marcelo]

WTF??!!! This is racism! This is a new apartheid but this time against whites

if this is true it is absolutely disgraceful and a backward step for south Africa and their rugby. Don't give a shit wether the team is all white, all black or full of little green spacemen originating from mars the best players should be picked regardless of race end of story!
Hopefully its just a slow news day and poor journalism....

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...cup/story-e6frf4pu-1226697495465#.UgxLhsR-808

You are right, mate. You are right

 

[Braveheart81]

If SA are going to introduce quotas, it would seem the Currie Cup is the place to do it. Any higher up the chain would be inappropriate in my opinion.

If the challenge is providing better opportunities for black players then that should be at the base professional level rather than in Super Rugby or test rugby.

The two levels above Currie Cup will sort themselves out naturally once players are in a professional environment and get to show their wares against the other players vying for Super Rugby contracts and test spots.

The whole idea of a quota is to speed up a process that will take generations to correct if left to its own devices.

 

[wamberal]

This is an issue for South African rugby. I am not arrogant enough to express an opinion.


We in Australia suffered for many years from unofficial apartheid when it came to non-whites playing rugby. The first Aboriginal Wallaby (Lloyd McDermott) did not "come out" until many years later.


Let the South Africans deal with it in their own ways. We have very little credibility as a sport, frankly. Rugby league, and Australian Rules did far, far better than us, as did cricket, until quite recently.


And that is without even mentioning the disgraceful behaviour of Australian rugby openly supporting and encouraging the tours by all-white South African teams, with a lot of support from the local rugby community, as I recall it. Shameful. Very few dissenting voices in those days.

 

[Train Without a Station]

God you make some rambling comments.

Unofficial apartheid? Did it ever occur to you that the "elite" game as it was at the time probably offered little pathways to those outside the correct school system?

Not sure how administration decisions made generations ago by dinosaurs of humans that are probably deceased now should be held against the current rugby administration or community.

AFL has had a great presence in all socio economic demographics in areas with larger indigenous populations. It's not exactly surprising that historically they had a higher indigenous participation.

Intrigued to know what exactly RL has done better also. From memory for example, the first state of origin contained two indigenous players in Beetson and Meninga (correct me if I'm wrong). Does not seem to indicate any greater effort that RU.

On the case of quotas, it helps nobody. Inferior players are picked and generally fail to perform due to this. The team suffers and the player suffers.

It's a shame SARU can't put the effort into development at junior level to ensure that players of all races are afforded close to the same level of development and are given the best chance to excel and be picked on merit.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Why aren't quotas in place in Australia, New Zealand, England etc etc.

Quotas for whites, aboriginal, Pacific Islander lads, Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, gay players and every other minority group out there.

Its all bullshit - pick players on ability, not race, colour or creed

 

[Braveheart81]

Its all bullshit - pick players on ability, not race, colour or creed

The proponents pushing for a quota would probably argue that a major reason behind it is they don't believe players are being picked on ability at the moment and black players are unfairly overlooked.

 

[Tex]

The proponents pushing for a quota would probably argue that a major reason behind it is they don't believe players are being picked on ability at the moment and black players are unfairly overlooked.

It's not a policy restricted to sport. Business and universities also operate under the same system, with graduates and job seekers having the 'colour test' applied to them before offers are made. It causes significant brain drain as talented people find work in other countries.

Sport is sport - you're either good enough or you're not good enough. Black, white or yellow - it's not dad's Mercedes that defines your ability to run a 10 second 100m and kick a goal from 50m. It's your genetics and application to training and work.

Sure, dad's Mercedes might mean you attended one of the elite high schools and benefited from the rugby program, but that won't count for anything if you're a donkey who trains at 60%.