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So, the Australian scrum. Am I worrying too much?

  • Thread starter Bread and the crumbs
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ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
Only straws in the wind, Riptide. Lots of repetition running, no mention of serious strength work. But what would I know?

I imagine without the data to know what shape the guys are actually in it would be hard to answer exactly Bruce, but what would you be doing differently at this point in the season?

I was of the impression that the majority of the strength work is done in the pre season and then the guys try and carry it through the season without burning out. With such a short break between serious competitions could you get enough strength work in to have a real positive impact, or should they just be topping up? How does it work, and could you carry all the pre season work through a season this long which includes S15, Tri Nats and RWC?
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
I have to ask the question....why would we have a suspect scrum?

The Waratahs had one of the better Super scrums. The Brumbies, Force and Rebels had good Super scrums. And the Australian Super side with the least effective scrum were minor premiers and went on to win the final against unquestionably the best Super scrum.

We should be able to throw together 3 serviceable test scrums out of that lot and at least 1 very good one, even without Fat Cat.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
JB, the suspicion about our scrum comes from past experience in the main. Looking at the EOYT in 2010, it was at times deplorable. As a tier 1 nation, it should be better. I actually think we've got the cattle, but lack of attention over a number of years reduced the strength of it. The scrum camp ahead of the squad assembling was a good idea.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
Our scrum was a shambles last year with so many front rowers down. It should have been better regardless of this.
The last time we had a very good test scrum was when Foley was coaching the Wallaby forwards.
Our scrum has been noticeably weaker and more disorganised since his departure. I know it got chewed up and spat out a few times when he was at the helm but it improved over time with him to the point of becoming a weapon for the Wobs.

Coincidence or not? There is no reasonable excuse for us having a sub standard scrum this year.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
I have to ask the question....why would we have a suspect scrum?

The Waratahs had one of the better Super scrums. The Brumbies, Force and Rebels had good Super scrums. And the Australian Super side with the least effective scrum were minor premiers and went on to win the final against unquestionably the best Super scrum.

We should be able to throw together 3 serviceable test scrums out of that lot and at least 1 very good one, even without Fat Cat.

Joe Blow, I swear this has become the G&G(Ladies)R.

(With apologies to the female members of the forum - you're not ladies)
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Scrum - some posters are saying it will be fine/stable, and others that a poor scrum can be overcome (a la Reds or Wallabies far too often). I hope it will be fine, but if there is even a hint of weakness it will be exploited AND referees will assume any problems are our fault due to past performances. I don't think 'work around the park' can make up for poor scrummaging, especially not at the top level.

Vickerman - has not played enough top level rugby lately to be considered a World Cup starter, Class may well be permanent, but that is true of loads of other retired or semi retired players too.
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
There has been some talk over at TheSilverfern.com from those who claim to be in the know that Dave Rennie (recently announced as Chiefs coach for 2012) interviewed for the Hurricanes job and was then told not to pursue it further. Apparently the fix was in and the NZRFU imposed Hammett on the Hurricane to ensure he would not be lost to Deans who was pursuing him aggressively. If so, is that indicative that Jim Williams was on the outs? Hammett's expertise is with the forwards (all the more interesting giving the Hurricanes derisory upfront performance this past Super season). I know Williams is highly regarded back in Ireland and particularly by the Munster faithful and there was some speculation (dont know if there was any basis at all for it) that he might be offfered the Munster gig post WC should Tony McGahan got the boot. The scrum is being handled. How highly is Williams' work regarded?
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
I imagine without the data to know what shape the guys are actually in it would be hard to answer exactly Bruce, but what would you be doing differently at this point in the season?

I was of the impression that the majority of the strength work is done in the pre season and then the guys try and carry it through the season without burning out. With such a short break between serious competitions could you get enough strength work in to have a real positive impact, or should they just be topping up? How does it work, and could you carry all the pre season work through a season this long which includes S15, Tri Nats and RWC?

I think you've drawn attention to the underlying problem, Charger. Factor in "a season ... which includes S15, Tri Nats and RWC" or a Northern Hemisphere tour in non-World Cup years, then allow for a period of rest each year, and there is little time for "all the preseason work". As a result, if players are going to have an adequate strength base, heavy strength training has to be maintained virtually year round. That assumes of course that coaches believe that there are advantages in their players having parity or advantage in that area.

If, on the other hand, they believe they can compromise in the area of strength they are likely to predominantly focus on aerobic conditioning with the weights work involving a low percentage of a player's one-rep maximum and an emphasis on bar speed.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Yeah, Kepu had his first full off season for a long time and low and behold he kills it
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
RedsHappy, is it the case that the Wallabies setup don't do some or all of these things?

Thanks for what is a very good question. Firstly, as you see, I am arguing that the 'capability in depth' parameters I listed are, IMO, absolutely essential to the construction of an ultimately successful elite rugby team in this era. For example, this year we have an Aus champion team in the Reds. If you look at that team's playing roster as at February 2011, you'd say that the only really outstanding players then in it were Genia, Copper, probably Horwill and Ioane. The rest were either experimental, or merely solid and 'reliable'. Far from a team of stars (and btw, and this is crucial, this roster was not drastically different to the Reds' 2009 one). Now, what has obviously made the difference is the total leadership, coaching, technical support, culture development, tactical and game plan ingenuity that Link and his team management group have created, building upon a good (but by no means universally exceptional) group of players. So, from this indisputable example spanning a mere 18 months, in assessing any team's viability as champions-to-be, we must assess both (a) intrinsic player capability and, just as importantly, (b) total team leadership and management capability (and my last post focussed upon (b) obviously). (An aside: a listen the last GAGR podcast interview with the Reds' Assistant Coach M Taylor powerfully highlights the role of specialist support coaches in building a successful elite rugby team, in this case: defence).

Secondly, re the 2008-2011 Wallabies. I have taken a vow to generally stay away from the Deans assessment debate until, say, late August when the 3N is over and we have much more fresh data to assess. What I will say, in trying to offer an answer to you as above, is that IMO the relatively slow and halting progress that the Wallabies made from May 2008 - December 2010 (and no one could factually argue the progress was exceptional and/or fully consolidated into very consistent winning outcomes) can be ascribed to certain deficiencies or under resourcing in a number of these parameters within the Wallaby leadership and management group. Purely for example: defence, consistent breakdown excellence, and scrum excellence/KPIs did not advance as well as they should have over a whole 3 year cycle under a new national coaching regime; not enough consistent specialist resource has been devoted to kicking and the construction of reliable kicking technique; 'culture and mindset' - against the best oppositions, the Wallabies regularly faded in 2H situations, failed to consolidate 1H leads, and appeared to lack the ultimately required psychological intensity to close out crucial wins (and perhaps S&C issues were relevant to this), just examine the 2008-10 track record vs ABs.

For most of the foregoing, I don't 'blame the players', I believe there were management issues involved which required/require correction (and bringing in Phil Blake for defence in late 2010, and the recent 2011 scrum camps, are hopefully moves in the right direction. On the other hand, I am very unclear whom - if anyone - is now providing specialist coaching re attack, back line work etc to the Wallaby backs. Just having a powerful bunch of X-factor backs will be a necessary but by no means sufficient condition for RWC success in attack and counter-attack.)
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Ha,ha, more talk about our scrum. We are so focussed on the individuals instead of being concerned with it being an 8 man effort. That could be the very problem. We get so carried away with assesing individual players more than the unit.

The Wallaby scrum will be fine and we will have it functionioning as a well balanced unit this year.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I think you've drawn attention to the underlying problem, Charger. Factor in "a season ... which includes S15, Tri Nats and RWC" or a Northern Hemisphere tour in non-World Cup years, then allow for a period of rest each year, and there is little time for "all the preseason work". As a result, if players are going to have an adequate strength base, heavy strength training has to be maintained virtually year round. That assumes of course that coaches believe that there are advantages in their players having parity or advantage in that area.

If, on the other hand, they believe they can compromise in the area of strength they are likely to predominantly focus on aerobic conditioning with the weights work involving a low percentage of a player's one-rep maximum and an emphasis on bar speed.

So the question is - do we then 'rest' players so they can work on conditioning, but lose game time and combinations, or keep them playing, gaining combinations but having a reduced strength.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. This world cup lead up seems a lot tighter than 2003s,
 
D

daz

Guest
I am seriously concerned yet again by what I hear about our physical preparation.

I think our physical preparation has been pretty good Bruce. Didn't you see the Wallaby RWC11 squad win the S15 last week and then get a week off to refresh? :fishing
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
Jeez that John O'Neil is good......... I just noticed in Daz's avatar he even managed to get the Aus logo on top of the other two on the bottom of the S15 trophy.
 
V

villafella

Guest
Kepu < Sheridan
TPN > Hartley
Slipper < Cole
Sharpe > Deacon
Horwill > Palmer
Elsom > Haskill
Pocock > Moody
Palu > Easter
Genia > Youngs
Cooper > Flood
Mitchell > Cueto
O'Connor > Hape
Ashley-Cooper > Tindall
Ioane > Ashton
Beale > Foden

Why the hell anyone considers Palu worthy of selection I can't fathom!!! He can't catch!! I like O'Connor in the centres though.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
Why the hell anyone considers Palu worthy of selection I can't fathom!!! He can't catch!! I like O'Connor in the centres though.

I agree. He truly is terrible.

Houston is the man for the job. I mean, sure, he hasn't played a lot this year, but when he did it was in a red jersey, so he's bound to be successful.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Why on earth are you so worried about England, given the pools?

I'd worry a hell of a lot more about the Italians, if I were you. They've a truly magnificent scrum; and if they go to town on your scrum in the first game, it could set a perception about your scrum in stone in the minds of every referee.
 
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