So, the Australian scrum. Am I worrying too much?

[qwerty51]

I might be wrong, but I thought that Vickerman came off the bench? I just remember him throwing their scrum half, who wouldn't let go of him off the ball. Then getting penalised for it.

The Vickerman Suplex

[video=youtube;hIyQTGbSfEc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIyQTGbSfEc[/video]

You're worried about this scrum?

Jamie Heaslip is not 103 kgs.

 

[Groucho]

That's right, it was all Vickerman's fault, I forgot.:

And Deans. Drat that wormhole.

 

[Groucho]

[video=youtube;hIyQTGbSfEc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIyQTGbSfEc[/video]

You're worried about this scrum?

Excellent! England are crap!!!

 

[Bread and the crumbs]

Well all interesting points and I agee with Scotty that we also were beaten at the breakdown. However, that 2007 q/final started with shocking scrums from our blokes which only allowed the Poms to gain confidence and they beat us up in the tackle and then the breakdown followed on. I still think Robinson is the only world class prop we have. In my view the others are yet to prove themsleves and I hope you blokes are right and I am wrong.

 

[Groucho]

Another thing to bear in mind is that in the S15 all the Australian scrums except the Reds were more than competitive against all the scrums except the Crusaders. Australian scrummaging has been far from weak this year. One reason for that is a general improvement of technique as the result of better coaching and a more hard-nosed attitude. Compare this with the scrummaging of the 2007 Super rugby seasons, when were were literally all at sea.

 

[Gnostic]

That's right, it was all Vickerman's fault, I forgot.:

W heredid I say that?:banghead

Tell me though how was his last RWC game? Now tell me what performance has been like in Pro Rugby in the last 2 years as compared to the completion for hours spot?

I think my scepticism is well founded but go ahead offer just your snide little comments and emoticons.:salute

 

[Ash]

I agree with Gnostic, Vickerman was awful in that 2007 semi vs England. There was a good reason, though, as Vickerman was coming back from a long term injury straight into the World Cup with no game time (if I remember correctly, it was no game time). Realistically, he was never a shot at getting back to top form, and it culminated with a woeful semi where Vickerman tried hard, but just didn't have it.

The others are right that Vickerman was hardly alone in playing poorly, however. Our forward pack were smashed, both in the scrum and at the breakdown. And as usual, we had it all over them in the backs.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The scrum and the breakdown were pretty much equally responsible for our demise that day in 2007. It was all England had, but frankly it was all they needed too. Our work at the breakdown these days is a lot better and to be fair the scrum is too, though in the EOYT I saw a worrying regression. We have a very good lineout, are solid at the breakdown, have discovered the ability to counter ruck and have a dynamite backline. With at least parity in the scrum, we would have pretty much all the bases covered, but it remains to be seen.

 

[dobduff11]

The scrum and the breakdown were pretty much equally responsible for our demise that day in 2007. It was all England had, but frankly it was all they needed too

Partly true but what about our better kicking game, Wilko was 4/7 whereas Mortlock was 2/5.

Plus our old stagers had quality matches, Regan, Gomarsall, Robinson and Catt.

Australia's improvement since 2007 has been out of sight, the addition of Pocock, a resurgent Sharpe and a more stable scrum have been crucial.

 

[cyclopath]

W heredid I say that?:banghead

Tell me though how was his last RWC game? Now tell me what performance has been like in Pro Rugby in the last 2 years as compared to the completion for hours spot?

I think my scepticism is well founded but go ahead offer just your snide little comments and emoticons.:salute

Maybe it's the fact that you bang on about it so much?
Put your toys back in the cot too - I am allowed to disagree with your assertion that games from 4 years ago have a lot of bearing on what is happening now.

 

[Gagger]

For me the scrum was more of a mental injury. I remember seeing a few of the players look up afterwards with a "oh fuck not again" after the first scrum penalty.

Not great for momentum when you suddenly have a no-go area on the park

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Partly true but what about our better kicking game, Wilko was 4/7 whereas Mortlock was 2/5.

Plus our old stagers had quality matches, Regan, Gomarsall, Robinson and Catt.

Australia's improvement since 2007 has been out of sight, the addition of Pocock, a resurgent Sharpe and a more stable scrum have been crucial.

Without question yes. Basically every strength that England could have played to in that game they did and the result came. I hated it at the time, but I had to respect it! It's not like their game plan surprised anyone, they just executed it very well. We just couldn't cope.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

For me the scrum was more of a mental injury. I remember seeing a few of the players look up afterwards with a "oh fuck not again" after the first scrum penalty.

Not great for momentum when you suddenly have a no-go area on the park

Absolutely Gaggs. It's draining and detracts from other parts of your game. And yet, if we can reach some solidity in that area, I feel that we have all the other tools to beat any team in the world.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Our forward pack is on par with England, we are slightly better at the breakdown and they are slightly better at the set piece.

Would that it were true. I'll be very agreeably surprised if we win the battle of the breakdown against any of the countries in serious contention. Apropos of which I am seriously concerned yet again by what I hear about our physical preparation.

 

[BDA]

Absolutely Gaggs. It's draining and detracts from other parts of your game. And yet, if we can reach some solidity in that area, I feel that we have all the other tools to beat any team in the world.

That's why im still particularly optimistic. The Reds this season were often targeted at scrum time, sometimes they lost the battle, but they still managed to get on top of the opposing forward pack. They were better in the tackle, better at the breakdown. They were a strong forward pack without being strong in the scrum.

Australian teams have learnt over the years how to cope with a reversing pack. And while our scrum has without a doubt improved, the true improvement has come in the all round quality of our props as was seen in the Reds this year. Slipper, Alexandar, Kepu and are all great around the park. Yes, scrums can be extremely critical at certain times in a game, but id like to think our boys will outplay their opposite numbers while they’re not packing down.

In the scrum, Robinsons a loss no doubt about it. But this is nothing new. There is a time wen I’d be asking who else is there, but our depth is better than years past. No real standouts but Slipper and Kepu both should be able to keep it steady. I know there is a lot of hate for Alexander on this board but I thought he finished the season strongly and he has proven over the last 4 years that he can scrum well at international level. His problem seems to be consistency. To top it off we have two hookers who are genuinely strong at scrum time.

For fuck sake, we are aussies! We can definitely make do with this lot! Ha

Also I must say our WC forward pack is looking heavier than last year. TPN, Palu, Elsom, Sharpe, Vickerman, Horwill, maybe Samo or Dennis. The extra weight will help a little in this area. I always thought our scrum looked its best with a 120kg Palu bookend on the back.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Would that it were true. I'll be very agreeably surprised if we win the battle of the breakdown against any of the countries in serious contention. Apropos of which I am seriously concerned yet again by what I hear about our physical preparation.

Well I would argue that the England game apart, our work at the breakdown was pretty good in the back half of last season. We even saw some counter rucking, which was pleasing. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but I believe that Pocock, Elsom and Horwill will be good for us there this year. Horwill in particular has developed into a very good rock shifter.

 

[Riptide]

Would that it were true. I'll be very agreeably surprised if we win the battle of the breakdown against any of the countries in serious contention. Apropos of which I am seriously concerned yet again by what I hear about our physical preparation.

Ok, I'm definitely biting. What are you hearing?

 

[Bruce Ross]

Ok, I'm definitely biting. What are you hearing?

Only straws in the wind, Riptide. Lots of repetition running, no mention of serious strength work. But what would I know?

 

[RedsHappy]

Bruce Ross: Would that it were true. I'll be very agreeably surprised if we win the battle of the breakdown against any of the countries in serious contention.

Certainly Bruce, England Twickenham 2010, our forwards often went AWOL again and England comprehensively outplayed us at the breakdown and accordingly won the match. We may have 'marginally improved' in forwards play since 2008, but it was hardly of 'consistent forwards excellence' class by end 2010.

Apropos of which I am seriously concerned yet again by what I hear about our physical preparation.

As you say, Walls S&C situation and forward S&C program for the Walls pre RWC will be of great importance. Fascinating that yet again on these boards 90% of the commentary on the state of Walls as at July 2011 concerns 'selections and positions'. Derivatively, we lose Robinson, and literally dozen of posts fret and worry that irrevocable disaster may have struck. (If only it was all that simple.) Yet I would argue that of equal, if not greater significance, are these parameters of total Wallaby capability as of July 2011 and as may unfold pre RWC (in no special order of priority):

- S&C program and S&C program management;
- proven (or otherwise) specialist/assistant coaching capability in all of forwards/scrum/defence/attack/backs/kicking, etc, namely the crucial facets of a rounded elite team capability as enhanced by detailed coaching programs and strategies;
- team psychology, game pressure management skills, and team culture;
- alternative game plans for varying opposing teams and climatic conditions;
- precise tactics within game plans, and player combinations training in depth to deliver chosen tactics successfully;
- captaincy contingency should Elsom go down

Personally, the above are the parameters of total Wallaby leadership and execution capability that I think will determine our actual success (or otherwise) outcomes in the 3N, BC and RWC this year, far more than the position or selection of a few individual players.

 

[Groucho]

RedsHappy, is it the case that the Wallabies setup don't do some or all of these things?