Shute Shield 2017

[Dave Beat]

I think you're undervaluing the importance of brand alignment..

I support the QPR team I do today because it was the club I played for in Under 10's.. my brother and his kids support the QPR team he does today because it's the same club that his kids play for..

Pretty sure ILTW appreciates brand allignment - his brand as shitty as it is is Rat brand. Alot of the SS clubs are proud and promote their brand, you may have seen the Mini Marlins Rugby camp pictures.

 

[Rugby Central]

He's saying that club rugby works well with the model that it is using and your proposition would harm that.

I'd say the numerous threads and abundance of posts on GAGR would suggest otherwise. If the current model was working so well why are we having, falling participation, disquiet in the broader rugby community and outright rebellion from some quarters.

I love Club rugby as it stands, but - for good or ill - Rugby as a sport has moved on in this country. The Shute Shield is currently Tier 4 in the rugby hierarchy.

1. Wallabies
2. Super Rugby
3. NRC
4. Shute Shield

If Shute Shield wants to be included as part of the genuine pathways then it has to change the way it operates. If it is there as a community organisation then great, continue operating that way - I am not saying this is a bad thing.

I believe, had the Shute Shield engaged with a little more flexibility in the past there would have been no need for the ARC/NRC. But as SS clubs will not countenance any change to their structures or the competition structure then I can understand why the ARU aren't interested in being all that consultative. Doesn't make the ARU right but I can understand it.

P.S as this is the SS thread I make no comment regarding the Brisbane Premier comp.

 

[Dave Beat]

I'd say the numerous threads and abundance of posts on GAGR would suggest otherwise. If the current model was working so well why are we having, falling participation, disquiet in the broader rugby community and outright rebellion from some quarters.

I love Club rugby as it stands, but - for good or ill - Rugby as a sport has moved on in this country. The Shute Shield is currently Tier 4 in the rugby hierarchy.

1. Wallabies
2. Super Rugby
3. NRC
4. Shute Shield

If Shute Shield wants to be included as part of the genuine pathways then it has to change the way it operates. If it is there as a community organisation then great, continue operating that way - I am not saying this is a bad thing.


I believe, had the Shute Shield engaged with a little more flexibility in the past there would have been no need for the ARC/NRC. But as SS clubs will not countenance any change to their structures or the competition structure then I can understand why the ARU aren't interested in being all that consultative. Doesn't make the ARU right but I can understand it.

P.S as this is the SS thread I make no comment regarding the Brisbane Premier comp.

It's no secret I'm pro the Shute Shield.

I cringe at the way Pappy comes across, he raises allot of very valid good accurate points from solely one side, and i believe that has some people in the wider audience who aren't directly involved in the SS retaliating very fairly in a similar way - with both sides possibly being valid.

All of this can be a detriment to our game.

Yeah, I've shared comments and thoughts on here. A group of us have also taken steps, and shared ideas with the crew at the top Pulver, Hore, etc. They are great guys and want what is best for our game. The shit fights on here seem similar to what goes on through all the walls up to the top of the tree - and i wish people put as much effort in talking up our great game as they do putting shit on areas of it.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'd say the numerous threads and abundance of posts on GAGR would suggest otherwise. If the current model was working so well why are we having, falling participation, disquiet in the broader rugby community and outright rebellion from some quarters.

I love Club rugby as it stands, but - for good or ill - Rugby as a sport has moved on in this country. The Shute Shield is currently Tier 4 in the rugby hierarchy.

1. Wallabies
2. Super Rugby
3. NRC
4. Shute Shield

If Shute Shield wants to be included as part of the genuine pathways then it has to change the way it operates. If it is there as a community organisation then great, continue operating that way - I am not saying this is a bad thing.


I believe, had the Shute Shield engaged with a little more flexibility in the past there would have been no need for the ARC/NRC. But as SS clubs will not countenance any change to their structures or the competition structure then I can understand why the ARU aren't interested in being all that consultative. Doesn't make the ARU right but I can understand it.

P.S as this is the SS thread I make no comment regarding the Brisbane Premier comp.

Yes, we all acknowledge that SS is 4th in the rugby hierarchy. You've yet to make any case as to how reducing the number of grades will improve rugby in this country.

The ARU and the SRU are currently in conflict because neither of them are really listening to what the other one is saying.

The SS should feed in to NRC (as it does with the Rays by the way), again, reducing the grades will have zero impact on whether or not this continues.

As this is a SS thread I won't widen the discussion other than to say that the ARU could have taken the wind out of the dissidents sails ages ago. What was needed was a rational strategy which went something like; we don't think you should be paying your players, but if you want to you fund that yourselves. We recognise your historic and ongoing role in junior and colts development so what we will do is fund programmes up to a certain value. We can either provide it in kind or we'll reimburse you on production of invoices. Anyone from club land would have a very difficult time arguing against that approach.

 

[Dave Beat]

Yes, we all acknowledge that SS is 4th in the rugby hierarchy. You've yet to make any case as to how reducing the number of grades will improve rugby in this country.

The ARU and the SRU are currently in conflict because neither of them are really listening to what the other one is saying.

The SS should feed in to NRC (as it does with the Rays by the way), again, reducing the grades will have zero impact on whether or not this continues.

As this is a SS thread I won't widen the discussion other than to say that the ARU could have taken the wind out of the dissidents sails ages ago. What was needed was a rational strategy which went something like; we don't think you should be paying your players, but if you want to you fund that yourselves. We recognise your historic and ongoing role in junior and colts development so what we will do is fund programmes up to a certain value. We can either provide it in kind or we'll reimburse you on production of invoices. Anyone from club land would have a very difficult time arguing against that approach.

Razamataz - that sounds to easy.
So what you are saying if clubs do the work, get results by increasing participation, there maybe in kind reimbursement of some sort through the increased levies so the grass (roots) can continue to be fertilised and watered.

To me that sounds to simple, and we'd have nothing to bitch and moan about - why don't we leave that to the NRC to do

 

[I like to watch]

Pretty sure ILTW appreciates brand allignment - his brand as shitty as it is is Rat brand. Alot of the SS clubs are proud and promote their brand, you may have seen the Mini Marlins Rugby camp pictures.

A brand so shitty that the Marlins have to spend three times what the Rats do,to field a competitive side?

......If you call not making the playoffs competitive

 

[Dave Beat]

A brand so shitty that the Marlins have to spend three times what the Rats do,to field a competitive side?

..If you call not making the playoffs competitive

Couple of brands at play

 

[Quick Hands]

Maybe the Gazprom Shute Shield, every club with a $5 million salary cap.

Get rid of rugby league and the the GPS old boys elitists running the ARU/NSWU in one fell swoop.

 

[Rugby Central]

The ARU and the SRU are currently in conflict because neither of them are really listening to what the other one is saying.

OK, this will be my last attempt at trying to explain this.

I AM NOT SUGGETING CLUBS REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS.

Does this make sense, am I speaking English, is the spelling ok?

I am talking about restructuring the competitions and the Clubs so they can effectively cater to the elite players, social players and media/sponsors. Or, more bluntly, the people with the money.

Premiership rugby: 1st Grade, Second Grade, Colts. Three teams allows flexibility for kick-off times, a format that is suitable for recording/broadcast and able get the fans there.

There are currently over 50 rugby Clubs playing in Sydney that are not part of the Shute Shield. These are the people who would love to watch a game....if it was on at a time they could get there. Then there's all the School age players who might actually go to SS.....if it was on at a time they could get there.

Lower Divisions: SAME CLUBS + others. This provides game time to players who like competitive rugby but either don't have the time to commit, ability to move higher, or are in a place in their lives where they play for fun.

They still train with the premier teams if they want to (Clubs can do what they like) the top players in this lower division are still visible to the premier teams so they can be called up to cover injury or if form suggests they should.

Here's the thing, the Clubs that currently struggle to field the lower grades can focus on their premier teams and come to an arrangement with local district clubs to fill gaps and provide opportunities.

There is so much Rugby in this country outside of the Shute Shield but as long as everyone else has to change, that's ok by you. Shute Shield is not some sacrosanct institution that is immune to change. It has tried it's hardest to resist and Sydney Rugby is dying.

Shute Shield is, and should remain, the flagship of Sydney Rugby. It lost it's status as one of the world's premier club competitions year's ago and stuck it's head in the sand as a solution. The world has moved on, maybe, just maybe, so should the Shute Shield.

My idea may not be right but I'm trying to find a way to keep SS Clubs strong and relevant.

 

[Dave Beat]

OK, this will be my last attempt at trying to explain this.

I AM NOT SUGGETING CLUBS REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS.

Does this make sense, am I speaking English, is the spelling ok?

I am talking about restructuring the competitions and the Clubs so they can effectively cater to the elite players, social players and media/sponsors. Or, more bluntly, the people with the money.

I'm a sponsor and i like getting down, and also travel to watch 4 grades.

 

[Rugby Central]

Hey DB,

Your commitment needs to be applauded. Unfortunately, unless your pockets are at deeper than Packer's, we're going to need a few more people to do what you do.

Sadly the success of one club financially or otherwise, such as Manly, does little to assist the SS more broadly.

A structure needs to be found where those with less are given a chance to better compete with the clubs with more. This is what I'm trying to find.

 

[Quick Hands]

O

I AM NOT SUGGETING CLUBS REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS.

Yes you are, you're just trying it on by stealth.

.

Does this make sense, am I speaking English, is the spelling ok?

I'll leave this part of you post alone, other than to say if you want to insult other people's comprehension of English, you'd want to make sure that your post is grammatically correct. Sadly your knowledge of English grammar is about the same as your manners.

 

[Rugby Central]

Hi QH,



Thank you for focussing on my emotion and completely ignoring my point. I apologise that you feel insulted. But please understand how insulting your dismissal and condescension towards the rest of Club rugby is.



To answer you're earlier statement

You've yet to make any case as to how reducing the number of grades will improve rugby in this country.

Please see below

1st Grade, 2nd Grade and Colts; and there should only be 8 teams. Create a Div 2 meaning those Clubs not in the top 8 can fight out promotion/relegation and the stronger Suburban clubs or new one's could fill the gap. It means those final games of the year fighting off the wooden spoon will be just as important and intense as those games playing in the finals

The season will fit perfectly between cricket and NRC, Clubs can focus on proper development and spectators can get to every game because with three grades it could be run later on a Saturday with a crescendo of rugby in the 7:30 timeslot for rugby fans as well as school and social players. (Subbies and School players) They would be more likely to watch their local Shute Shield Club because the quality is there (often better in my opinion) and they could actually get to a game after their own match for an acceptable cost with a seat closer to the action

The shorter season would also allow clubs with the will and resources to develop proper 7's programs which WOULD be the stepping stone to Olympic selection. Now that raises the importance of Club rugby.

Three teams allows flexibility for kick-off times, a format that is suitable for recording/broadcast and able get the fans there

Could any of these suggestions be considered a case to improve club rugby?



What I am suggesting here is a change to the competition structure. No Club, under any circumstances, would be required to turn away a single player. My personal opinion is that SS clubs would be having a net gain of players


Please address why it can't work. Explain why the status quo is so great and adhesive for Sydney Rugby. Show how Penrith getting flogged week after week is good for rugby. Please explain the benefits of players backing up 2 sometimes 3 games.....and do it without asking for money from the ARU. Unless you know there's funding that can be relied upon.

 

[Quick Hands]

I purposely ignored the rest of your post after the block capital, bold, unlined.

 

[I like to watch]

]Please address why it can't work. Explain why the status quo is so great and adhesive for Sydney Rugby. Show how Penrith getting flogged week after week is good for rugby. Please explain the benefits of players backing up 2 sometimes 3 games...and do it without asking for money from the ARU. Unless you know there's funding that can be relied upon.[/COLOR][/FONT]

Because 2's are totally reliant on 3's backup.
To run squads seperately,you need in excess of 50 players in 1/2's
Effectively you're suggesting that 3's either sit on the bench all year waiting for injuries in 1/2's, or go out of their way to back up for a squad that they no longer have any real association with.
They won't do it.

 

[Dave Beat]

Please address why it can't work. Explain why the status quo is so great and adhesive for Sydney Rugby. Show how Penrith getting flogged week after week is good for rugby. Please explain the benefits of players backing up 2 sometimes 3 games...and do it without asking for money from the ARU. Unless you know there's funding that can be relied upon.

HI RC,

Going from 12 teams to 8 teams is reducing the number of grades playing, it is taking away 4 clubs. Each club has 7 teams (4 grade teams, and should have 3 colts teams), so it could be said 8 grade teams are being removed, and 8 colts teams are being removed.

Each club should have a role in grass roots development, that is to better themselves, and to also better the game. Remove 4 clubs from that picture our game goes backwards further.

The reason why Status quo is so great;

• Upon every great building there is a solid foundation.
• When money came into play with professionalism, the focus was more on the top rather than the foundation.
• The same can be said in business, you start at primary school, onto seniors school, then tafe, uni, employment (in different orders). More often than not it is the people who work the hardest at the core of their chosen profession that rise to the top.

You don't just arrive at the top of your profession. In a different space that is like removing schools because we have computers.
Back to topic - I believe Premier Rugby in all states should be the school, the recruitment tool, to grow our game. Soup & test rugby is simply the advertisement, and it is wasting money if all you care about is the advertisement if you aren't ensuring the tools are there to keep building from the foundations.
From where allot of people are sitting;

• i think they are seeing the advertisement and not spending the time in understanding the difference between a hammer and a chisel and getting upset that the chisel isn't punching in a nail.

From Pappy's chair;

• I think he is giving a very warranted spray, but poorly delivered. He's played our game at the highest level, he cares about our game, raises allot of vary valid points. I don't doubt that the respective boards see these points as important either it is just a case of delivering them to various geographic, and demographic areas around the country.

So going from
12 clubs (84 teams / 42 games).
8 clubs (24 teams / 12 games).
Is a rather monumental change, and even more so at the colts level.
Colts;
Going from 3 to 1 colts team, is a sad state of affairs and in my eyes a excuse to throwing in the towel. We need to be out there nurturing the U15, 16, 17, 18 and growing them so they flow into colts and grade - that is why club rugby is so important. We cant sit back and say that is the private schools job any more.

 

[Rugby Central]

Thank you DB and ILTW for addressing my points.

Firstly I agree, Club rugby should be the school, nursery and factory of rugby players.

What I am so passionate about and what so many in the rugby community and ARU establishment are so frustrated with is the perception that Shute Shield is the only Club rugby there is.

If SS devotees would take off the blinkers (I'm using this as a metaphor not an insult - in case you're wondering) you would see what I'm advocating (obviously poorly) is an expansion of Club rugby, not contraction. It will elevate or create Clubs to fill the gaps. 2 competitions, Premier and Division 2 means 16 Clubs, not 12.

Also with a two tier promotion-relegation system and only eight Clubs, every game counts; right down that last match fighting off relegation.

ILTW as for asking players to

go out of their way to back up for a squad that they no longer have any real association with.

That would be entirely on the Club management. All teams can still train together. During the week you pick your starting line up for the Saturday. Unless I've missed something, SS doesn't have unlimited Subs.

I come back to my original point, SS is either the nursery for elite rugby players or is a social footy. It cannot be both anymore. Professionalism and financial accountability of the ARU changed that forever.

The players that have ambition will work with whatever system is in front of them. Players who just love playing and love their Club, will turn up each Saturday for their mates regardless. The structure I'm suggesting actually caters for both, rather than a hybrid that serves neither adequately.

Another benefit that has come to mind which is a gaping hole in the Australian rugby landscape is coaching development. By having to select a match squad with a bench for strategy and impact rather than grabbing the nearest bloke who can stand up.

DB in saying

Going from 3 to 1 colts team, is a sad state of affairs and in my eyes a excuse to throwing in the towel.

You are implying there is no other Colts rugby being played in Sydney. Are you saying their is no role for all the other rugby clubs that play in the Sydney metropolitan area?

At the moment so many kids come out of school thinking that the only place they can get a game is at a SS Club. This is patently false and is a major determinant in turning kids away from the game after school.

I am not advocating for the destruction of Shute Shield Rugby. I am proposing that SS clubs look beyond their traditional structures for the benefit of all rugby Clubs, players and coaches.

If the status quo was working so well, why do we have participation problems, funding problems as well as players and coaches going overseas to gain experience. Shute Shield Rugby is an integral (but no longer essential) part of the Australian Rugby community. Before you get upset, take out the emotion and look at the facts. Junior Rugby Clubs are self sufficient, schoolboy rugby operates independently, sevens will be run out of Australian Sports Commission as an Olympic Sport and the NRC has replaced it as the 3rd Tier.

If SS rugby is to be the gem and essential cog in the Rugby wheel it used to be, then it can no longer hold back the tide of change.

 

[Dave Beat]

DB in saying

You are implying there is no other Colts rugby being played in Sydney. Are you saying their is no role for all the other rugby clubs that play in the Sydney metropolitan area?

At the moment so many kids come out of school thinking that the only place they can get a game is at a SS Club. This is patently false and is a major determinant in turning kids away from the game after school.

I am not advocating for the destruction of Shute Shield Rugby. I am proposing that SS clubs look beyond their traditional structures for the benefit of all rugby Clubs, players and coaches.

If the status quo was working so well, why do we have participation problems, funding problems as well as players and coaches going overseas to gain experience. Shute Shield Rugby is an integral (but no longer essential) part of the Australian Rugby community. Before you get upset, take out the emotion and look at the facts. Junior Rugby Clubs are self sufficient, schoolboy rugby operates independently, sevens will be run out of Australian Sports Commission as an Olympic Sport and the NRC has replaced it as the 3rd Tier.

If SS rugby is to be the gem and essential cog in the Rugby wheel it used to be, then it can no longer hold back the tide of change.

No I'm not implying there are no other colts in Sydney plying their trade.

To have thousand of lines on a page reflecting different paths - kids, parents, supports, run the risk of getting lost. And get the shits through frustration.

It is simple;
There is a path, and each entity is a step in that path and serves it's purpose.
Couple of years back the SS tried something - top 6 bottom 6 based on CC and the thoughts were shared here. Imagine removing 4 clubs, and then telling half the players in a club your in a different half.

There was a great article in the Manly Daily last week - that clearly articulates the role the Premier Clubs should be playing in our game - did you see the article?

 

[Rugby Central]

Unfortunately I haven't seen the article. Can you provide a link.

However what I'm hearing from these pages is there's a problem but nothing needs to change. Also looking at the contributors to this forum it seems most is coming from the eastern side of the Bridge.

Manly is a strong Club doing, what seems to be, everything right. Sadly what works on the Beaches doesn't seem to be transferrable to a large section of Sydney. I played for Manly but live but live closer to the Hills these days.

The strong clubs have a steady stream of private school boys educated and indoctrinated with a love of Rugby Union. Gordon being the anomaly.Many of the multi-talented athletic kids west of the Pacific Highway are not.

This is the reason things need to change. While Rugby on the beaches is always fighting against AFL, League and Football, it is nothing compared to what western Sydney Clubs face.

The eastern Clubs have the base, the following and the strength to face almost any challenge thrown at them. Over time it will become an 8 team comp anyway as Penrith, Parramatta, Wests, and Southern all collapse under the weight of competition coming from the better established sports. Add to this, based on current participation trajectory, there will be fewer teams at all clubs as well.

Isn't it better to make the changes while you have the control rather than be a victim of circumstance and only able to react to events around you.

I love the game and if that means putting some of the comfortable clubs outside their box then it will be better in the long run for everybody.

 

[Dave Beat]

Article attached - to busy to say much else.

Apart from it just doesn't happen it requires work - good work done repeatidly well.

Best I've got is the attached but if you google manly Daily, or check out their face book a better copy maybe found