Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[no9]

To those who wonder what this is about, apparently selections aren't to be talked about on the relevant sites and need to be moved here.

Cotton is in yr 11 and is still learning how to play at this level (as evidenced by a horrible play last saturday) and his time will be next year unless ISA manage to fuck him over to. The call on Phillips is not only mine but a reflection of what opposition players think too. They know he's a threat in the lineout but don't have to worry about him at the breakdown. The Stannies kid was tried last year and was disappointing to say the least IMO, but then you can't have an ISA team without a Bathurst boy can you G Melville? The Greg's kid went OK on the day but not for a second did I see anything that puts him in front of an Augustines or Oakhill player. Karel Lloyd must be wondering what he did wrong to be left out.

I watched CHS play on sunday and they are large and skillful across the park, where as St Augustines (sorry but I won't be calling it ISA) will be skilled but lack in size and force and that to me is the catch 22 situation for them now. If CHS do outmuscle the other team (better) and equal them in skill then they'll suffer at the next level of selections because those who shouldn't be there will be exposed and the better players have to make up the slack for them instead of being able to concentrate on their own role within the team, something they don't normally have to account for.

Papa's been doing this for a long time now and is very skilled at it. The others probably didn't even know it was happening until it was too late. He's an old Randwick boy and they were the past masters of influencing selections and oozed arrogance which is probably why so many people are happy to see them last and struggling in the Shute Shield.

If you, I and some other sensibly minded people could concur roughly on what is close to the best for ISA why can't the lunatics running the asylum also? Any team is only as strong as those who select it, thats part of why Western Zone always underperforms each year because interdistrict politics precludes the best players from being selected. An overhaul of the ISA policies and procedures would be a good start in cutting away the deadwood but they'd argue that all's well.

Ask yourself how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot and only 2 or 3 Augustines boys had survived the marred selection procedures, who'd be screaming from the rooftops then? Mind you that's still better than 0 isn't it?

 

[Lee Grant]

To those who wonder what this is about, apparently selections aren't to be talked about on the relevant sites and need to be moved here.

Nice try no.9 - no, not really.

It's your accusations of bias in selections that doesn't belong in the other threads, even f they are right, but you know that.
.

 

[no9]

Nice try no.9 - no, not really.

It's your accusations of bias in selections that doesn't belong in the other threads, even f they are right, but you know that.
.

Not bias Lee, incompetence.

 

[Lee Grant]

Let's agree to disagree.

The thing is: I don't disagree about what you are saying - nor agree. I don't know enough about it. All I know is that some of the accusations you and some others make on what I categorise as bias in selections can lead to flame outs - and that is what was happening on the ISA thread in posts I deleted.

Cheers

 

[Hugh Jarse]

This thread is strangely silent, given the recent GPS opens and 16's squad announcements, CHS/ISA/CCC trials, and Sydney Juniors 15's 16's and 17's announcements.

I was anticipating that it would be lit up like David Jones Christmas windows with just as many sightseers.

Something has to be wrong in the state of Denmark if we are all more or less in agreement with the selctions and selectors.

 

[It is what it is]

This thread is strangely silent, given the recent GPS opens and 16's squad announcements, CHS/ISA/CCC trials, and Sydney Juniors 15's 16's and 17's announcements.

I was anticipating that it would be lit up like David Jones Christmas windows with just as many sightseers.

Something has to be wrong in the state of Denmark if we are all more or less in agreement with the selctions and selectors.

Yes, I know what's wrong.......their soccer team has just been knocked out of Euro 2012.

 

[Brian Westlake]

This thread is strangely silent, given the recent GPS opens and 16's squad announcements, CHS/ISA/CCC trials, and Sydney Juniors 15's 16's and 17's announcements.

I was anticipating that it would be lit up like David Jones Christmas windows with just as many sightseers.

Something has to be wrong in the state of Denmark if we are all more or less in agreement with the selctions and selectors.

There hasn't been any damage for anyone to scream about... Yet...

 

[an observer]

There hasn't been any damage for anyone to scream about. Yet.

From someone who reads a lot of posts on here, the only bias I have observed yet has come from members of the forum making some very bold, uninformed and what appears to be "bias" statements that have been highly critical of the lads out there doing their best. There has been some good rugby played and some shockers. IMO hats off to the lads who have so far played in some pretty average conditions and are vying for Schoolboy glory.

 

[Brian Westlake]

From someone who reads a lot of posts on here, the only bias I have observed yet has come from members of the forum making some very bold, uninformed and what appears to be "bias" statements that have been highly critical of the lads out there doing their best. There has been some good rugby played and some shockers. IMO hats off to the lads who have so far played in some pretty average conditions and are vying for Schoolboy glory.

Look at this... Not a whinge. Have the selectors got it right?
A tweak here, a twist there.... Mmmmm lets see Friday night, but so far i reckon all is good HJ and Obs.

 

[no9]

For all of you protected little NTS, JGS, glee club koalas' out there don't fear, uncle Manu it seems, has already done the deals to correct what the nasty state selectors have done. You shouldn't have to wait much longer for your combined states invitation as the Qld players already know and the team isn't supposed to be selected for another 16 hours. I just love the bullshit and agendas of schoolboy rugby. For anybody who thought they might get a CS gig through their trial performances just missing state selection, I think you'll find pink elephants flying over the opera house is more realistic unless your a member of the secret handshake club.

 

[I like to watch]

Good to see you are so disappointed that more boys from ISA I's weren't selected. Which of them in particular do you think were the unluckiest?

 

[Rugby Parent]

Here are the stats to support or discredit conspiracy theories:

Of the 46 boys selected: GPS 23; CAS 9; CHS 8; ISA 5; CCC 1; AICES 0; Cntry 0.

Of the 30 starting positions: GPS 18; CAS 4; CHS 4; ISA 4; CCC 0.

Representation by School:

Kings 7 (though none in NSW 1); Newington 5 (with 4 in NSW 1); Joeys 5; St Augustine's 5; Scots 3; Iggies 3; Barker 3; Trinity 3; Alstonville 2; Endeavour Sports 2; Waverley 1; Knox 1; Aloys 1; Plumpton 1; Balgowlah 1; Saint Mary's Cathedral School 1; Farrah 1; Castle Hill 1.

 

[DPK]

Something has to be rotten in the state of Denmark if we are all more or less in agreement with the selctions and selectors.

C'mon, Hugh!

 

[no9]

Good to see you are so disappointed that more boys from ISA I's weren't selected. Which of them in particular do you think were the unluckiest?

My concerns aren't for individuals but for the Boys Club mentality that is a part of schools/junior rugby like a cancer. Too little people have far too much influence over the ambitions of these kids and are more interested in feeding their own egos in deals behind closed doors. Why does it say on the Aus Schools site that a CS team isn't being selected until a certain time and yet players are informed of their selection 24 hrs in advance of the time? Why are players deemed not good enough to shadow the state side but are then selected miraculously in a combined side that is coached by 2 of the selectors who deemed them unworthy 2 days earlier? Why not just name the players as shadow alternatives in the first place? Lies, deceit, bullshit, smoke and mirrors, is what a lot of junior rugby is about. Why can't honesty and performance be the criteria for a change? If you aren't good enough in your position thats ok provided it's another who plays in the same position who beats you for the spot, not centres or fullbacks or locks. Who'd seriously want to be a winger in junior football knowing they will pick centres ahead of you each step on the ladder? I've been in the inner sanctum up to Sydney level and have witnessed some indifferent calls and the influences some people try to exert, which is why I have no desire to continue.League players given every opportunity to milk what they can without fear of jepoardising the after school payday and to the detriment of developing this game by denying a RUGBY player the opportunity. Are these people that delusional that they think it will make any difference to 99% percent of them still walking away. If Milne and Moeroa or any of the others who've been frequently mentioned on these pages are playing colts rugby in 2 years time and not turning out for a NYC team I'm happy to stand corrected, but I won't hold my breath in fear of being wrong.

There is a lot more wrong with rugby than there is right currently, look at the largest most influencial province (NSW) as an example. Basket case and failure come to mind easily. The Shit Shield competition between Uni and Eastwood has been dragged down with the most embarrasing competition structure seen in sporting memory, Australia's U20 campaign fills me with confidence that those in positions of power know what they are doing (not) and that all the cotton wooling of 15 year olds is the way of the future. It's all part of the reasons we'll never seriously contend with NZ and SA for extended periods again and why we can be beaten by powerhouses of international rugby like Samoa and Scotland. Look through the smoke and mirrors that is the ARU/NSWRU and you'll see it's just about individuals milking it for all they can on overpaid salaries in jobs created by mates.

In regard to your enquiry regarding ISA selected players, from what I saw the GPS players were a step ahead of all the other associations and if you are to be honest with the form displayed over the trials period you'd be hard pressed to justify any ISA player being selected this year.

 

[Brian Westlake]

It's all part of the reasons we'll never seriously contend with NZ and SA for extended periods again and why we can be beaten by powerhouses of international rugby like Samoa and Scotland. Look through the smoke and mirrors that is the ARU/NSWRU and you'll see it's just about individuals milking it for all they can on overpaid salaries in jobs created by mates.

In regard to your enquiry regarding ISA selected players, from what I saw the GPS players were a step ahead of all the other associations and if you are to be honest with the form displayed over the trials period you'd be hard pressed to justify any ISA player being selected this year.[/quote]

No9... I bow in honour of probably the greatest manifesto since Marx.

 

[whatever]

My concerns aren't for individuals but for the Boys Club mentality that is a part of schools/junior rugby like a cancer. ----------- If Milne and Moeroa or any of the others who've been frequently mentioned on these pages are playing colts rugby in 2 years time and not turning out for a NYC team I'm happy to stand corrected, but I won't hold my breath in fear of being wrong.

There is a lot more wrong with rugby than there is right currently, look at the largest most influencial province (NSW) as an example. Basket case and failure come to mind easily. The Shit Shield competition between Uni and Eastwood has been dragged down with the most embarrasing competition structure seen in sporting memory, Australia's U20 campaign fills me with confidence that those in positions of power know what they are doing (not) and that all the cotton wooling of 15 year olds is the way of the future. It's all part of the reasons we'll never seriously contend with NZ and SA for extended periods again and why we can be beaten by powerhouses of international rugby like Samoa and Scotland. Look through the smoke and mirrors that is the ARU/NSWRU and you'll see it's just about individuals milking it for all they can on overpaid salaries in jobs created by mates.

I agree with a great deal you state No:9: have you any solutions to be offered.

 

[I like to watch]

My concerns aren't for individuals but for the Boys Club mentality that is a part of schools/junior rugby like a cancer. Too little people have far too much influence over the ambitions of these kids and are more interested in feeding their own egos in deals behind closed doors. Why does it say on the Aus Schools site that a CS team isn't being selected until a certain time and yet players are informed of their selection 24 hrs in advance of the time? Why are players deemed not good enough to shadow the state side but are then selected miraculously in a combined side that is coached by 2 of the selectors who deemed them unworthy 2 days earlier? Why not just name the players as shadow alternatives in the first place? Lies, deceit, bullshit, smoke and mirrors, is what a lot of junior rugby is about. Why can't honesty and performance be the criteria for a change? If you aren't good enough in your position thats ok provided it's another who plays in the same position who beats you for the spot, not centres or fullbacks or locks. Who'd seriously want to be a winger in junior football knowing they will pick centres ahead of you each step on the ladder? I've been in the inner sanctum up to Sydney level and have witnessed some indifferent calls and the influences some people try to exert, which is why I have no desire to continue.League players given every opportunity to milk what they can without fear of jepoardising the after school payday and to the detriment of developing this game by denying a RUGBY player the opportunity. Are these people that delusional that they think it will make any difference to 99% percent of them still walking away. If Milne and Moeroa or any of the others who've been frequently mentioned on these pages are playing colts rugby in 2 years time and not turning out for a NYC team I'm happy to stand corrected, but I won't hold my breath in fear of being wrong.

There is a lot more wrong with rugby than there is right currently, look at the largest most influencial province (NSW) as an example. Basket case and failure come to mind easily. The Shit Shield competition between Uni and Eastwood has been dragged down with the most embarrasing competition structure seen in sporting memory, Australia's U20 campaign fills me with confidence that those in positions of power know what they are doing (not) and that all the cotton wooling of 15 year olds is the way of the future. It's all part of the reasons we'll never seriously contend with NZ and SA for extended periods again and why we can be beaten by powerhouses of international rugby like Samoa and Scotland. Look through the smoke and mirrors that is the ARU/NSWRU and you'll see it's just about individuals milking it for all they can on overpaid salaries in jobs created by mates.

In regard to your enquiry regarding ISA selected players, from what I saw the GPS players were a step ahead of all the other associations and if you are to be honest with the form displayed over the trials period you'd be hard pressed to justify any ISA player being selected this year.

I don't understand your objection.why can't selected people be informed prior to the announcement?
I thought CS was being coached by Riverview coach? I didn't know that GPS Schools had any representation on NSW Schools selection panel this year?
My understanding is that CS is/was selected in concert with NSW & Qls selections.i.e. The squad is named, then CS (in principle) then the shadow squad is named. I would be surprised if any of the CS boys were named in the NSW shadows.
I tend to agree with you on selecting kids in their correct positions, however, there is a good argument this year for the selections of the back 3 in the I's.
IMO selections this year are the least contentious for quite a few years, maybe you need to lie down and have a bex.
Interestingly, with all these posts complaining about the "corrupt process" you have yet to identify one individual who has been"robbed" in this process.

 

[Newbie]

No.9

Some very profound statements that have been well articulated!

Some very good food for thought indeed!

 

[no9]

I don't understand your objection.why can't selected people be informed prior to the announcement?
I thought CS was being coached by Riverview coach? I didn't know that GPS Schools had any representation on NSW Schools selection panel this year?
My understanding is that CS is/was selected in concert with NSW & Qls selections.i.e. The squad is named, then CS (in principle) then the shadow squad is named. I would be surprised if any of the CS boys were named in the NSW shadows.
I tend to agree with you on selecting kids in their correct positions, however, there is a good argument this year for the selections of the back 3 in the I's.
IMO selections this year are the least contentious for quite a few years, maybe you need to lie down and have a bex.
Interestingly, with all these posts complaining about the "corrupt process" you have yet to identify one individual who has been"robbed" in this process.

Watch you dissapoint me. I would think you of all people would do the due diligence of a bit of research first. Your assumption that CS is being coached by 2 riverview staff (Hargreaves and Potts I believe) is correct, the same 2 people who are a part of the NSW selection panel (that you knew nothing of) that didn't select a number of the players 3 days ago. Should make for an interesting first training run.

If the CS team was selected as you believe while the state teams were being selected (instead of as per the Aus schools web site) then why were Kitchen, Kennelly, Pulver, Hood and Delore named in the shadow squad. Thats a third of the CS team so it must be a big surprise to you.

What good argument is there for pulling apart the most impressive combination of the trials in Kellaway, Jones and Foketi to put 2 of them in the II's and another out of position for an out of form player who played all of 5 minutes in the position and 2 players who could have been accomodated in CS. If McIntyre had to be picked then put him on a bench or play him in the II's at No10, whether he played for Australia last year or not, it might be the kick in the arse he needs to find some form.

Now who has been robbed you say. Well the boys who were named in the shadow squad for a start. I didn't see the names of Palermo, Vest, Croke, Randell or Redden named as shadows but they are listed as members of Uncle Manu's (who just happens to be a CS selector) koala club,(not Vest) not to mention Papworth who was smart enough to slip over the border to try and represent QLD.

So which is it Watch, they select CS before a shadow team for NSW but then manage to name 5 players as part of both teams or they select the shadow team (as they should) on exposed form (as they do the I's and the II"s) only to have Manu come along and pick those who will justify his existence and belittle the shadow players efforts. Who does know? thats the whole point isn't it, keep everyone guessing, with knowledge comes power and you can't let the punters have any of that.

Another interesting selection is Kelly of NSW. Can anyone tell me where he's from as I've reviewed the programs for this year and haven't sighted him as yet. It would appear he was selected ahead of one of your beloved Augustines boys without a game played. And how did Gerry-Burgess leapfrog Barclay from GPS III's? Home ground advantage maybe?

You probably do feel that selections are the least contentious for years because 5 of your Augustines boys managed to sneak into the NSW teams and in a couple of cases in front of more deserving players. You always ask for justification of these statements so i'll share my thoughts on what I saw of them with you.

O'Connor- needs to remember he is a prop now and not a No8. Spends too much time in the backline and was nowhere to be seen as one of the pillar defenders on numerous occasions against CAS. The GPS and CAS boys can feel hard done by but as 10 props get selected between NSW and CS he had to get a start somewhere. Robertson was better and should be in I's.

Philip- good lineout technician but CAS worked him out and he lost ball on his own throw, calls himself a lot.
I can't vouch for this obviously but I know opposition players find him to be non threatening physically and an incessant complainer to the ref (which has no bearing on his selection). Afele or Mee as viable alternatives

Lloyd- started out in ISA II's (who said you couldn't get picked from there) and played well against CCC but gave little against CAS. Good ball carrier and lineout option but not the strongest defensively. Moylan performed stronger.

Natoli- Will become one of the all time great Manly league dummy halfs but lacks certain rugby skills. Can't remember a single box kick against CAS which would of been beter than throwing it to Cochcrane to kick it out where the last lineout took place. Killed a certain try by going on own and getting caught which also happened regularly against CHS. GPS and CAS boys outplayed him. Jenkins and Ferris were better.

Taylor- nice to see a winger get selected and not another bloody centre. Good against CHS but ordinary against CAS with dropped ball and didn't go infield at all, just tried to beat his man on the outside (unsuccessfully). Some of the GPS boys would be asking each other who? Wylde and Clunnies -Ross are unlucky.

These aren't bad selections. All 5 kids can play and a couple should be in the squads but perhaps not starting while a couple were also outplayed by others more deserving in my opinion.

Think I'll take your advice and have a lie down now.

 

[no9]

I agree with a great deal you state No:9: have you any solutions to be offered.

I don't think there'll ever be enough space here to solve it all and where do you start. Pruning some of the ARU hangers on. But this forum is about junior rugby so to break down the power that so few currently hold over so many then ditch the elitism squads. I'm absolutely opposed to these little clubs because I think they shrink the talent pool rather than expanding it and development needs to be made available to as many kids as possible for growth and not seen to be the possession of a privileged few. Invest in colts rugby development where most kids start to even out mentally and physically and is in the clubs best interest, they did a good job in the past. The problem is those at NSW headquarters think there is nothing wrong and neither do many of the rugby communities in the north and east but if you review the results of our national, provincial and age group sides intelligently you'll see that the programs and policies aren't delivering the right results.The Shute Shield is struggling and paying for TV coverage and colts numbers are dwindling. It may need the death of a club such as Randwick or Gordon (only 2 colts teams) for people to wake up to where this path leads - No4 winter football code, boutique sport played on the east coast in Sydney and Brisbane private schools, thats a recipe for success (not).

As an unabashed supporter of rugby I make no apolagies for seeing open schools rugby as being the cut off point where kids need to make a decision on where they want to pursue a future. If they choose league then good luck to them and we put the time and funding into the next best rugby player. Keeps happening but few seem to care. Unlike NZ and SA we have major competition for our athletes allegiance and can't afford to be wasting time and resources developing the oppositions next generations.

While there has always been an element of politics throughout the game, much of the plot was lost when the game went professional and the administration couldn't keep pace with the players and the rugby beauracracy invented programs and policies to justify an existence. Reducing the influence that some hold over those at such an early stage of development may help redress some of the issues that have evolved in this time.