W
waves
Guest
Could anyone provide a team list of players who didn't make it at Schoolboy level now doing well Like Burgess and King ?
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Could anyone provide a team list of players who didn't make it at Schoolboy level now doing well Like Burgess and King ?
Spewn
Alex Ross (28)
MOTH
Sweeping generalizations are my forte. I am implying that some players who are good enough for Oz schoolboys don't make it to square 1. In other words, the pool of talent is wider than some think (ie those that imagine the only decent players looking forward are those who played Oz schoolboys). Hardly controversial.
Man on the hill
Alex Ross (28)
Big call - want to throw some details behind that? & don't put in names from the past who made it to the top even though they didn't play elite schoolboy rugby - fact is - they probably weren't good enough as schoolboys, but continued to work on their game and got there through that hard work.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
There will always be elite schools players who don't make it in senior rugby; some get spat out in Colts.
And there will always be the Phil Kearns, NFJs, and AACs who were senior rugby stars but had no great rugby distinction at school. Kane Douglas of the Waratahs played very little rugby union as a schoolboy, if any. He was discovered by Michael Foley as a 17 year old when some Southern Districts players were invited to oppose the Wallabies in a training session. Douglas said that they had to tell him what to do in the lineouts.
Listing the names of good senior players who weren't schools stars won't prove anything. Most folks could write down 5 reasons why players emerge later on including some maturing later than their contemporaries.
And there will always be schools players who don't get picked for their school, their school group or their state who should have been and lads who should have been in NTS/Gold squads but weren't chosen. And it will always be harder for Country lads to be picked for anything.
The key matter is not to criticise the current system but to outline what is a better system for your particular state - or nationally - with the resources available to do so.
And there will always be the Phil Kearns, NFJs, and AACs who were senior rugby stars but had no great rugby distinction at school. Kane Douglas of the Waratahs played very little rugby union as a schoolboy, if any. He was discovered by Michael Foley as a 17 year old when some Southern Districts players were invited to oppose the Wallabies in a training session. Douglas said that they had to tell him what to do in the lineouts.
Listing the names of good senior players who weren't schools stars won't prove anything. Most folks could write down 5 reasons why players emerge later on including some maturing later than their contemporaries.
And there will always be schools players who don't get picked for their school, their school group or their state who should have been and lads who should have been in NTS/Gold squads but weren't chosen. And it will always be harder for Country lads to be picked for anything.
The key matter is not to criticise the current system but to outline what is a better system for your particular state - or nationally - with the resources available to do so.
kiwi playing in Oz
Allen Oxlade (6)
Agree. The best thing parents can do is to encourage the kids who don't get picked to not give up and work on their weaknesses. You don't get anywhere in life without putting in the hard work - same goes for your education. In NZ a child plays club rugby only from 5 - 13yrs, once they hit high school they no longer play club rugby again until they leave school. It seems to work well. Hope the junior rugby in NSW improves but then you can't please everyone!
S
Shoulder Charge
Guest
Confidence
Lance Armstrong probably said it best in his book Its Not About the Bike:
'The world is full of people who are trying to purchase self confidence, manufacture it, or who simply posture it. You cannot fake confidence, you must earn it. The only way to earn it is to work at it. You have to do the work.'
Any kid with raw talent who is prepared to do the work has a chance of making it. It doesn't matter if they are in the school system or playing club; if they are prepared to work at it they will be noticed. It is then up to them to lift to each new challenge that presents and prove to themselves, their peers and the selectors that they are worthy of taking the next step. This can (and often should) take years as some kids are simply not ready for the next step yet.
They need to play rugby to gain proficiency and confidence in their abilities before being given the privilege of taking the next step.
Lance Armstrong probably said it best in his book Its Not About the Bike:
'The world is full of people who are trying to purchase self confidence, manufacture it, or who simply posture it. You cannot fake confidence, you must earn it. The only way to earn it is to work at it. You have to do the work.'
Any kid with raw talent who is prepared to do the work has a chance of making it. It doesn't matter if they are in the school system or playing club; if they are prepared to work at it they will be noticed. It is then up to them to lift to each new challenge that presents and prove to themselves, their peers and the selectors that they are worthy of taking the next step. This can (and often should) take years as some kids are simply not ready for the next step yet.
They need to play rugby to gain proficiency and confidence in their abilities before being given the privilege of taking the next step.
Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
You have got me wondering now!!!
Given that the St. Auggies Fabian Natoli is not in the NSW 1st's this year, when it is my opinion that he thouroughly deserves to be there, has me now wondering if it because he has not taken up a spot in the ARU's JGS.
Those who are not aware, Natoli is both a league and rugby player. Made various distignuished rep teams including the NSWRL U/16's in 2010, NSWCCC U/18's RL team in 2011, and Manly's SG Ball squad in 2011 (and as a 17 year old, which is no mean feat!!). Not forgetting the numerous NSW rugby representive teams he had made!
I have been informed of another lad who has initially been penciled in for selection in for the U/16's NSW Schools team by the School selectors (and he performed exceptionally well), however he is presently not in the ARU JGS and am wondering if he will now be precluded as a result of the above mentioned theory!
I will keeps all posted!
Regards,
Newbie.
Given that the St. Auggies Fabian Natoli is not in the NSW 1st's this year, when it is my opinion that he thouroughly deserves to be there, has me now wondering if it because he has not taken up a spot in the ARU's JGS.
Those who are not aware, Natoli is both a league and rugby player. Made various distignuished rep teams including the NSWRL U/16's in 2010, NSWCCC U/18's RL team in 2011, and Manly's SG Ball squad in 2011 (and as a 17 year old, which is no mean feat!!). Not forgetting the numerous NSW rugby representive teams he had made!
I have been informed of another lad who has initially been penciled in for selection in for the U/16's NSW Schools team by the School selectors (and he performed exceptionally well), however he is presently not in the ARU JGS and am wondering if he will now be precluded as a result of the above mentioned theory!
I will keeps all posted!
Regards,
Newbie.
B
baldingwingforward
Guest
Yes there are some conspiracy theories in relation to Rep selection and ARU JGS selection, however at U16 level i think it is less likely/prevalent. At U16 level very few players are full time members of the Gold squad (i think Andrew Kellaway is the only U16 player in the full squad atm - please name others if you know of any).
Following the U16 Nationals, and once the current crop of U18 players have been offloaded, that is when the new ARU JGS is selected. After that - i.e. when they go in to the Opens age group, that is when there seems to me to be more examples of favouritism for some of the chosen few.
On the subject of Michael Wells however - i think he has made a few people eat their words this year with the level of his performances.
The GPS selectors have shown how inept they are at selecting teams. Carroll from Shore was elevated from GPS 3rds (should never have been that low) to NSW 2s starting winger from 1 full game and a brief 10minute cameo for GPS 2. He is not in any ARU programmes or talent squads so he is proof that if you play well enough you are a very good chance of getting picked. Are people going to whinge if he gets to Australian Schoolboys.
Iluvmyfooty
Phil Hardcastle (33)
BWF
An even better example of the GPS selection process is the case of Max Jones from Kings. Originally selected as a bench player for GPS III's then on the bench for GPS II's in the second game. He has now been selected on the bench for NSW II's. He also is not in any ARU program.
An even better example of the GPS selection process is the case of Max Jones from Kings. Originally selected as a bench player for GPS III's then on the bench for GPS II's in the second game. He has now been selected on the bench for NSW II's. He also is not in any ARU program.
dermo
Larry Dwyer (12)
I think its about time an Auggies player experiences the feeling of being unfairly left out of a rep side as there has been numerous cases of Auggies boys taking the spots of other more deserving players
CTPE
Nev Cottrell (35)
What school association did he represent in last weekend's U16s Schools Champs?
Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
BWF,
I hear what you are saying mate and subscribe to your point of view. In other words talent does not evolve in a vacuum, it is always exisits and sometimes it takes that one coach/selector with a keen sense of acuity to identify that x factor that others can't see. In your example it has been Michael Wells, a lad who apparently never let his opportunuty go to waste ... carpe diem!!!!
I however I am trying to ascertain if NS's theory has some credibility (it is not the first time I have heard his assertion). I will go out on a limb a suggest that it does because the lad who I believe will be adversely affected is (ironically) in the same situation as Fabian Natoli (and for the benefit of CTPE here, can I respectfully ask if I can defer my answer until after 6 July. However CTPE I would be willing to answer you privately if you would keep the same in confidence).
I personally have an understanding of the internal mechanics of the Harold Matthews (U/16) and SG Ball (U/18) league competitons. As stated earlier Natoli is presently in the Manly SG Ball team (as an under 17) and even though the comp is now finished preparatory training for next year would have probably commenced like most other NRL clubs. During the season proper SG Ball teams generally train 4 nights a week (with Thursday being the normal rest day), and as such I will suggest that would leave someone like Natoli with no time to train or play rugby other that in school.
The point I am trying to make is this; someone of Natoli's talent would have definitely been approached by the ARU to join its JGS and/or NTS, however he probably would not have had the time to attend given what I have said above. I know there will be some here (and quite rightly so) who will suggest that why should rugby spend time and resources trying to develop players who will probably go to league, and I agree. However the question I then ask in response is this; has rugby done all it can to hold on to the talent his presently has?
In support of my assertion I would invite all and sundry to google a 'Daily Telegraph' article from 29 June 2010 about Rob Horne. The article is titled "How Rob Horne was almost lost to a rival code" . Read the extract pertaining to the intervention by Manu Sutherland, and then ask if somone like Fabian Natoli was given the same courtesy? I believe that such an exercise is warranted, and if it has occurred. Let Natoli rot in the NSWII's!
Regards,
Newbie
N
ned
Guest
Maybe the current system wouldn't be as flawed and more resources would be available if the people running the NTS weren't on a bonus system (more $) when their NTS players gain higher selection honors. This is why the NTS players are looked at more favourably for the higher rep honors and Acadamy positions as their mentors stand to benefit with a financial bonus.
Swarley
Bob Loudon (25)
1.
2. Phil Kearns- Newinton College 2nd XV
3. Bill Young- St. Joseph's 3rd XV
4.
5. Justin Harrison- Didn't play Union until University
6. Scott Higginbotham- TSS 3rd XV
7.
8. John Roe- BBC 3rd XV
9. Nick Farr-Jones (c)- Newington College 2nd XV
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
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16. Tai McIsaac- Started playing Rugby after professional Water-polo for Aust.
17.
18.
19.
20. Luke Burgess- St. Joseph's 2nd XV
21.
22.
Iluvmyfooty
Phil Hardcastle (33)
No its not true and it is another example of not letting facts get in the way of a good story
O
OppO
Guest
To be fair Carroll has come into form only this year and his aspirations were to make the Shore 2nd XV. I'm sure he's surprised himself with how well he is playing. Can't blame the ARU programmes for not picking up the likes of Carroll. Best of luck to him in championships a well deserved spot based on recent performance.
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