Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
A word of warning: applicants must be legally entitled to work in Australia.
for a voluntary position?
- Status
A word of warning: applicants must be legally entitled to work in Australia.
for a voluntary position?
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Sorry for capitals but …
PLEASE STOP USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT GOLD SQUADS AND THE LIKE GENERALLY.
THIS THREAD WAS SET UP TO DISCUSS SELECTION BIAS IN SCHOOLS REP TEAMS AND UNFAIRNESS IN SELECTION FOR GOLD SQUADS, AND SIMILAR.
TAKING THE BIAS AND UNFAIRNESS ELEMENTS OUT OF GENERAL THREADS TOOK SOME OF THE RANCOUR OUT OF THEM.
BUT GENERAL DISCUSSION SHOULD TAKE PLACE ELSEWHERE.
IN PARTICULAR, GENERAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THE NATIONAL JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIPS AND THE ARU JUNIOR GOLD CUP SHOULD BE DONE IN THIS THREAD:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...gold-cup-national-junior-championships.11929/
Thank you
.
PLEASE STOP USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT GOLD SQUADS AND THE LIKE GENERALLY.
THIS THREAD WAS SET UP TO DISCUSS SELECTION BIAS IN SCHOOLS REP TEAMS AND UNFAIRNESS IN SELECTION FOR GOLD SQUADS, AND SIMILAR.
TAKING THE BIAS AND UNFAIRNESS ELEMENTS OUT OF GENERAL THREADS TOOK SOME OF THE RANCOUR OUT OF THEM.
BUT GENERAL DISCUSSION SHOULD TAKE PLACE ELSEWHERE.
IN PARTICULAR, GENERAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THE NATIONAL JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIPS AND THE ARU JUNIOR GOLD CUP SHOULD BE DONE IN THIS THREAD:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...gold-cup-national-junior-championships.11929/
Thank you
.
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
It Seems Lee put this to sleep in the spring of 2013,
the bear does seem to be stirring a bit in 2014 with autumnal growling comments by S'Up and the rousing cheers by The Mexican and TC.regarding the selection of players to gold squads
I always thought selections were associated with darker forces than picking the athletes that chose their moments to do something significant. you would think with such policies the games would get like the comedians conference where the jokes so well known someone would call a number and all present would laugh.
this thread has often been close to the wire, but quite entertaining at times.
It is interesting how the same "wake riders" keep popping up in teams that are performing well.
the bear does seem to be stirring a bit in 2014 with autumnal growling comments by S'Up and the rousing cheers by The Mexican and TC.regarding the selection of players to gold squads
I always thought selections were associated with darker forces than picking the athletes that chose their moments to do something significant. you would think with such policies the games would get like the comedians conference where the jokes so well known someone would call a number and all present would laugh.
this thread has often been close to the wire, but quite entertaining at times.
It is interesting how the same "wake riders" keep popping up in teams that are performing well.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Bump.
Some residual issues left over from 2013 State Championships and regional tournament for SJRU U15 (I think). Discuss here not in the 2014 State Champs thread.
Some residual issues left over from 2013 State Championships and regional tournament for SJRU U15 (I think). Discuss here not in the 2014 State Champs thread.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
A very interesting read, moreso for those with a statistical bent, which investigates whether playing Aust Schoolboys was a precursor to senior representative Rugby, as well as looking at the influence of the type of school attended.
http://sydney.edu.au/education_soci...ysh/hmhce/resources/HMHCE_Article_01_2013.pdf
http://sydney.edu.au/education_soci...ysh/hmhce/resources/HMHCE_Article_01_2013.pdf
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I was at the selection trials for a district rep team recently. Coach of rep team is a dad and all 4 selectors were dads. Surprisingly the sons of coach and selectors all played their trial time in what was clearly the dominant side and equally surprisingly all sons made the squad.
2 of the boys would have made the squad regardless, the other 3 not so sure (probably not for 2) - certainly benefited by being known by the selectors.
2 of the boys would have made the squad regardless, the other 3 not so sure (probably not for 2) - certainly benefited by being known by the selectors.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I've heard it said in cricket that if you coach/manage the team your son earns the right to either:
- open the bowling
- open the batting
- keep wickets
- all 3
Long may it continue.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Earns the right,or owns the right?
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
5 captains as well
2x 10s this is a tradition maintained at international level by the English with their backs coach and his son
1x15 I read the book thief recently, funny how people want to be something they are not !
1x8 for the prince(ss)
1x 7 or rarely 2 'cause he thinks he manages the scrums
2x 10s this is a tradition maintained at international level by the English with their backs coach and his son
1x15 I read the book thief recently, funny how people want to be something they are not !
1x8 for the prince(ss)
1x 7 or rarely 2 'cause he thinks he manages the scrums
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Perhaps I misheard
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
This I can relate to. I played one season of junior club cricket in 1976-77. The coach's son was the opening bowler and opening batsmen. The manger's son opened the batting and bowling at the other end. A bowling change involved one of the two swapping with the wicketkeeper, who was the scorer's son.
Funnily enough the team didn't exist the following year.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Only one season?
i saw it for 4 - but at least the dad's were prepared to admit that "if I'm going to baby sit your sons for 4 hours on a sunday there has to be some quid pro quo".
I accept that!
Shane Smeltz
Fred Wood (13)
If you're talking about selection trials that were being held at an oval in Seaforth a couple of weeks ago then I was also there. There were lots of boys trialling, and lots of optimistic parents there hoping their progeny might get picked this year. There were five less spots available for their child of course as you say.
Nearby there was a small group of boys from an older age group doing some forwards training. I asked my friend who was in the know, were those older boys also trialling but for the rep team for their age group and my friend laughed, he said you're joking, they can barely field a rep team in that age group. The local village teams are two D-grade and one very lean A team.
I'd love to see the 'above' age group in a few year's time....
CatchnPass
Vay Wilson (31)
Are there rep teams without dads involved? In my experience rep trials are nearly always for 23 spots minus [insert no of boys 'trialling' whose dads are coaches/selectors]. The most galling aspect is that those kids are not always up to it and over 3 days at the JSC the team suffers for it.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
But how else could it work?
There's no money to pay impartial coaches or selectors
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I was at a different one, but same issues, which will no doubt have the same result.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
If we can't do it properly, then let's not even do it at all.
Let's be honest, most of these dads put their names up to safeguard their son's position as their primary reason.
In most cases, I'd suggest that the boys aren't receiving any better coaching than they would at their village club - it's usually just another dad.
Most SS clubs now have players being paid - I know that Manly expects these guys to attend village club training sessions on a regular basis as part of that. Use these guys to select rep teams. If there are only reps in 12s, 14 and 16s (as it should be) then it's not such a big production to run.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I have a feeling it would all work better without reps, QH
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Hugh's random thoughts for the day.
There is a fairly good history of the NSW (sydney centric) 1996 birth cohort on these threads from Under 15's (2011) onwards.
Now some of these lads were top age and left school at the end of 2013, but most are in still at school this year (Y12) and should be in line for School Association, State Schoolboys, and Aust Schoolboy selection.
It makes for interesting reading if you line up the 2011 Sydney JRU U15 reps, NSW JRU U15 Reps, [No NSW CJRU U15 squad list] with the 2012 NSW Schools U16, SJRU U16, and NSW CJRU U16 from 2012 National Schoolboys, and the 2013 U18 School Association teams, SJRU/CJRU and NSWJRU U17 rep teams, and the various keyboard selector rep teams being bandied around for 2014.
If you have a spare hour or two and are in need of a good chuckle, dive into the G&GR Archives and read a page or two from the Schoolboy threads of a cohort as they progress. Not only have the kids developed, so have many of the posters associated that that cohort.
Some names have dropped off the radar fairly quickly, and other names continue to polish their star with on field performances. The rate of fall off for some seems directly proportional to the ability of Parents, and reputation, to influence selections. Those that have left school (or are Y12 moonlighting in Colts from the Private Schools, or in Colts because SJRU no longer provide a viable competition for them and their school does not have a rugby programme) face the harsh reality of needing to perform at training and on the field week in week out, or they find themselves riding the pine or getting dropped down a grade. In the harsh reality of Colts footy, reputations count for nothing in most clubs, and there is plenty of young men who will do whatever it takes to advance up a grade, or to make it off the pine and into the starting 15.
How good were the 2011 Under 15 "Talent Scouts"?
The pass mark for this cohort would seem to be "maintain a run on starting position in Colts 2" in 2014, or to be in one of the 2014 State Schoolboys teams (or both). The latter names will be announced in June after the selection trials, the former is published week by week on the NSW Rugby web site.
There are lads from this cohort who as 17 turning 18 years old in 2014 that are regular starters in Colts 1 teams (up against 19 turning 20 year olds). This would be seen as an above average performance, however this is still no guarantee of selection into higher level rep footy. I recall a lad last year that was in the Koala Club, played regular Colts 1 footy week in week out for his club (which was one of the better performing teams in Colts 1 2013), starred for his School association team, and made the State Schoolboys Team. I saw a couple of his rep games and thought that he would be off to the UK with the National team. Unfortunately for him, there were some lads in the other teams that were deemed to have performed better than him at the National Tournament, and they got to tour. Life is like that sometimes.
It is rather obvious that our "Talent Spotting" at Under 14/U15 is a little haphazard, and influenced by cronyism, O'Beidishness, self interest and WII-FM, however for every lad that is selected due to Dads influence, there are two Andrew Kellaway's and Angus Crichton's that reward that development investment in bucketloads.
The challenge is, if we discard reps, what mechanism is there to keep these latter boys in the game, and to provide them with challenges that continue to extend them as they develop and mature.
For some boys who miss out on rep selection due to being on the wrong side of cronyism, this can be a very powerful motivator for them to work on their skills, fitness, strength, dedication, discipline and application, to prove that the Selectors got it wrong. This often stands them in good stead in later years when they are up for selection against the those that have previously had an easy ride courtesy of Daddy and his influence. David Horwitz probably falls into this category. It is also a good lesson in life. Selection into rep teams, and national teams as an adult is also subject to all sorts of influences other than performance on the playing field. It is just that those interfering in that process are not generally family relations.
There is a fairly good history of the NSW (sydney centric) 1996 birth cohort on these threads from Under 15's (2011) onwards.
Now some of these lads were top age and left school at the end of 2013, but most are in still at school this year (Y12) and should be in line for School Association, State Schoolboys, and Aust Schoolboy selection.
It makes for interesting reading if you line up the 2011 Sydney JRU U15 reps, NSW JRU U15 Reps, [No NSW CJRU U15 squad list] with the 2012 NSW Schools U16, SJRU U16, and NSW CJRU U16 from 2012 National Schoolboys, and the 2013 U18 School Association teams, SJRU/CJRU and NSWJRU U17 rep teams, and the various keyboard selector rep teams being bandied around for 2014.
If you have a spare hour or two and are in need of a good chuckle, dive into the G&GR Archives and read a page or two from the Schoolboy threads of a cohort as they progress. Not only have the kids developed, so have many of the posters associated that that cohort.
Some names have dropped off the radar fairly quickly, and other names continue to polish their star with on field performances. The rate of fall off for some seems directly proportional to the ability of Parents, and reputation, to influence selections. Those that have left school (or are Y12 moonlighting in Colts from the Private Schools, or in Colts because SJRU no longer provide a viable competition for them and their school does not have a rugby programme) face the harsh reality of needing to perform at training and on the field week in week out, or they find themselves riding the pine or getting dropped down a grade. In the harsh reality of Colts footy, reputations count for nothing in most clubs, and there is plenty of young men who will do whatever it takes to advance up a grade, or to make it off the pine and into the starting 15.
How good were the 2011 Under 15 "Talent Scouts"?
The pass mark for this cohort would seem to be "maintain a run on starting position in Colts 2" in 2014, or to be in one of the 2014 State Schoolboys teams (or both). The latter names will be announced in June after the selection trials, the former is published week by week on the NSW Rugby web site.
There are lads from this cohort who as 17 turning 18 years old in 2014 that are regular starters in Colts 1 teams (up against 19 turning 20 year olds). This would be seen as an above average performance, however this is still no guarantee of selection into higher level rep footy. I recall a lad last year that was in the Koala Club, played regular Colts 1 footy week in week out for his club (which was one of the better performing teams in Colts 1 2013), starred for his School association team, and made the State Schoolboys Team. I saw a couple of his rep games and thought that he would be off to the UK with the National team. Unfortunately for him, there were some lads in the other teams that were deemed to have performed better than him at the National Tournament, and they got to tour. Life is like that sometimes.
It is rather obvious that our "Talent Spotting" at Under 14/U15 is a little haphazard, and influenced by cronyism, O'Beidishness, self interest and WII-FM, however for every lad that is selected due to Dads influence, there are two Andrew Kellaway's and Angus Crichton's that reward that development investment in bucketloads.
The challenge is, if we discard reps, what mechanism is there to keep these latter boys in the game, and to provide them with challenges that continue to extend them as they develop and mature.
For some boys who miss out on rep selection due to being on the wrong side of cronyism, this can be a very powerful motivator for them to work on their skills, fitness, strength, dedication, discipline and application, to prove that the Selectors got it wrong. This often stands them in good stead in later years when they are up for selection against the those that have previously had an easy ride courtesy of Daddy and his influence. David Horwitz probably falls into this category. It is also a good lesson in life. Selection into rep teams, and national teams as an adult is also subject to all sorts of influences other than performance on the playing field. It is just that those interfering in that process are not generally family relations.
- Status