Scotland v Australia 12Nov16 Saturday

[Train Without a Station]

Barbarian I'd say it's just realism.

If you ignore all context around the opposition you only end up sorely disappointed when you fail to match up to better opposition.

England 2015 compared to 2016 is a poignant reminder of this. We got carried away with a victory over a team that limped into the RWC, and then got spanked at home by them because they were a much better team this time round.

It's not like every win is treated that way. Defeating NZ at home last year is something that can only be celebrated. It was the first loss for them since 2013 I believe.

But you can only put as much weight into the win over Wales as we can over Argentina right now, because that's somewhere around the quality of the opposition.

We played well when we were able to dominate the opposition forwards.......... If people want to talk about deja vu when talking about Foley/Cooper, then this one should be jogging even more memories as we seem to be an on endless cycle of this, followed by bitter disappointment.

 

[Kev]

Getting back to Scotland....I hope we smash them. Not because I dislike Scots but because if we lose we'll never hear the end of how Scotland was robbed, from the Kiwis.

 

[Scrubber2050]

This happens any time the Wallabies win in style. We never allow ourselves to say 'we played bloody well', and instead lay our success at the feet of the opposition, who 'played terribly'.

It's such a joyless way to be a fan. Yeah the Welsh may not have been firing on all cylinders, but that's because we never allowed them to. No-one is pretending they are the All Blacks, but they are still a fucking good side with some fucking good players. And we flogged them.
.

Something about being Australian and the pursuit of excellence.

We are still a long way from there but we look on the journey. The reality will only be told at the end of the Grand Slam.

I don't criticise anybody for their belief and comments in how they perceive the team AND its coaches can improve. That's what we all do !

 

[Twoilms]

Getting back to Scotland..I hope we smash them. Not because I dislike Scots but because if we lose we'll never hear the end of how Scotland was robbed, from the Kiwis.

God, are we going to hear the end of that anyway?

I hope we don't let the weather constrict our style of play too much. I agree that you should adjust for the conditions but a tight slogfest won't suit us at all. You can still catch a ball in the wet, it's just a little harder.

I fear we have an inbuilt superiority complex when we play the Scots. People always talk about the need to maintain focus and to not underestimate the opposition and yet we still do, fairly often and have been burnt.

However, if we play with as much efficiency and intensity as we did against Wales we win this match comfortably. If i had to choose an area of the game that will prove determinative, i'd suggest it would be the continued performance on the tight 5 around the field and at lineout time. If they put in a strong performance in these areas, the rest will follow.

 

[pissedoffihavetoregister]

i agree. The change in technique in the line out where they mostly don't take small jumps before they go up, has meant the opposition are much less likely to get up before us. Its affected us from the WC final thru to a few games ago. It has improved us a lot vs the darkness.

 

[emuarse]

I would keep the same halves as last week. Went pretty well I thought. Why change something that is working ?

Possibly to provide something that works even better. Especially if the forwards can provide drive and mid field channel selection as they did against Wales.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Possibly to provide something that works even better. Especially if the forwards can provide drive and mid field channel selection as they did against Wales.

Maybe yes, maybe no. - we'll never know actually whatever happens

 

[emuarse]

BH I agree with that.

The other factor is doesn't the CBA limit the players to 30 matches in a calendar year?

As the Waratahs didn't make the final he only played 15 Super Rugby games and with 15 tests this year he will play a max of 30.

That's pretty high but coming off the back of a lighter load in 2015 with only 12 tests in total and no EOYT I don't see any reason why he needs to be rested.

Perhaps rotation and playing McMahon or Pocock may be the right option, but it's not needed for Hooper's longevity really.

Talking of the 30 match rule, Foley must be right up there , if Japanese games are included?
He's played every game for the Wallabies this year (I think).

 

[emuarse]

It's a shame we'll only be getting 18 months out of them until they are yesterdays men like Douglas and Simmons

Or developing wings and taking off for places of milk & honey.

 

[Braveheart81]

Talking of the 30 match rule, Foley must be right up there , if Japanese games are included?
He's played every game for the Wallabies this year (I think).

The line in the last CBA is:

5 Training and playing obligations

5.2 The maximum number of games you will be required to play in any one season is thirty (30).

So I think that gives the player the option not to play once they've reached the 30 games but doesn't force them not to play.

Clearly no one is going to demand that they don't play because they've already played 30 games in the year.

Foley missed quite a few Super Rugby games this year.

 

[Brumby Runner]

They do in the wet.

Laidlaw a lot of box kicks that are contested and they will kick for the line deep in australia's half.

This link shows an interactive that you can look at where all the lineouts were.
Australia's in their half with most in the 22, scotlands around the halfway mark. So Scotland kick it deep, australia kick it back to halfway, rinse and repeat.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...d-cup-2015-australia-vs-scotland--match-stats

One aspect I especially liked from the Wallabies against Wales was their inclination to run the ball or chance their arm from their own 22m area. There was far less kicking to the sideline just to get out of the 22m zone.

 

[Brumby Runner]

And hence you have cooper on the bench as foley does not perform he gets pulled early but you should always reward form from most recent game as recent form is best guide to future likely form.

I don't buy into the whole halves combination thing..but would be good to see foley back up last performance with another good performance. As I only want the best 10 in form playing for the wallabies and whether that is foley or cooper I don't care as I think most should by now accept they are pretty neck in neck as both had pro's and cons and really at least if foley slips we have cooper on the bench ready to cover. I think we would be happy if both cooper and foley were in form as best option as would have good starters and finishers in that position.


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Except that the one on the bench (whomever that is) needs to be brought into the game at a more appropriate time than Cheika did with Cooper against Wales. The Wallabies' structure was starting to deteriorate for about 15 minutes into the second half, and part of that effect was certainly at Foley's doorstep, but when did Cooper get on? Less than 5 minutes from the end iirc.

 

[Scotty]

Except that the one on the bench (whomever that is) needs to be brought into the game at a more appropriate time than Cheika did with Cooper against Wales. The Wallabies' structure was starting to deteriorate for about 15 minutes into the second half, and part of that effect was certainly at Foley's doorstep, but when did Cooper get on? Less than 5 minutes from the end iirc.

It was a bit of a joke really. Up by more than 20, losing shape, why wouldn't he throw the guy in that he considered his best 10 only two games ago?

Same thing against the ABs but in reverse. Down by 15 odd, but still doesn't bring in someone that might be able to make something happen until the last few minutes. Foley up until then had been part of a structure that barely made a linebreak.

By contrast we have Hansen pulling the bloke who I consider the best player in the world because it wasn't going to plan.

Cheika for some reason thinks that replacing wings is going to have a bigger influence than replacing 10s. And for the record I wouldn't have replaced Foley for Cooper vs the ABs - would have pushed Foley to 12 instead.

 

[Scotty]

For Scotland I like the idea of:

Tight Five - the same
Loosies - Fardy, Pocock, Timani

Halves - Genia, Cooper
Backs - same

The impact that Foley, Phipps and Hooper could have on a tiring defense could be immense.

 

[Dalai Ninja]

God, are we going to hear the end of that anyway?

I hope we don't let the weather constrict our style of play too much. I agree that you should adjust for the conditions but a tight slogfest won't suit us at all. You can still catch a ball in the wet, it's just a little harder.

I fear we have an inbuilt superiority complex when we play the Scots. People always talk about the need to maintain focus and to not underestimate the opposition and yet we still do, fairly often and have been burnt.

However, if we play with as much efficiency and intensity as we did against Wales we win this match comfortably. If i had to choose an area of the game that will prove determinative, i'd suggest it would be the continued performance on the tight 5 around the field and at lineout time. If they put in a strong performance in these areas, the rest will follow.

Is it under-estimate, or over-estimate? I mean no disrespect to the Scots, but we're becoming their bunnies because we have the wood on ourselves when we play them.

Until the loss in Newcastle we always played to our strengths, as we would against any 9th or 12th ranked team, and we won consistently. We'd won all of the previous 24 games by an average of 20 points. Since Newcastle, every game has been a slog-fest. Instead of our own strengths we've been playing to theirs. Now we publicly advertise each game as a trap, and we play accordingly, and they play accordingly, and suddenly the teams are even.

The Scots aren't any better than they've always been, and we're not any worse, despite the imaginary golden past that exists in some Wallaby supporters' heads. Changing our game plan to counter their threats is a mistake, and I'm sure it's one we won't make on the weekend.

 

[Highlander35]

Is it under-estimate, or over-estimate? I mean no disrespect to the Scots, but we're becoming their bunnies because we have the wood on ourselves when we play them. Until the loss in Newcastle we always played to our strengths, as we would against any 9th or 12th ranked team, and we won consistently. We'd won all of the previous 24 games by an average of 20 points. Since Newcastle, every game has been a slog-fest. Instead of our own strengths we've been playing to theirs. Now we mark each game as a trap, and play accordingly. The Scots aren't any better than they've always been, and we're not any worse, despite the imaginary golden past that exists in some Wallaby supporters' heads. Changing our game plan to counter their threats is a mistake, and I'm sure it's one we won't make on the weekend.

2009

 

[Dalai Ninja]

2009

Exactly my point. The way to beat Scotland at Murrayfield isn't by playing ten-man rugby, even if the conditions are poor. That's their game, and they're better at it.

 

[Highlander35]

Exactly my point. The way to beat Scotland at Murrayfield isn't by playing ten-man rugby, even if the conditions are poor. That's their game, and they're better at it.

Much more: you hadn't won the previous 24 encounters prior to Newcastle, the match immediately before that you'd lost.

You had won the last 15, and before that we'd won 7 of 9.

 

[Dalai Ninja]

Much more: you hadn't won the previous 24 encounters prior to Newcastle, the match immediately before that you'd lost.

You had won the last 15, and before that we'd won 7 of 9.

Sorry, my bad. We'd won 16 on the trot from 1982 to Murrayfield in 2009, as you say, not 24. I have no idea where I got 24 from. Since then, the two teams have been equal: 2-2 and only a handful of points in each game. For 9th against 3rd in the world, whoever those two teams are, that makes us your bunnies.

I mean no disrespect to Scotland. You're better at your game than we are. If we play your game on the weekend we could easily lose. But we should expect to win more than 2-2, given our relative rankings. And we shouldn't change our style of play to counter yours, because that plays into your hands, and makes each game even.

 

[BDA]

And is about half speed of Phipps. I also disagree about the better pass, at the start of games Phipps is as good he just fades after 50.

Agree Phipps is much faster, but his passing isn't on Genia's level imho.