School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Inside Shoulder]

whilst schools are passing off scholarships as a way to give something back to the community, it is obvious that they are employing their sufficient finds to win premierships. Newington is only one minor culprit of this. To put them on a pedestal and denounce them is to let the other schools get away with murder. St Josephs has been doing this for years, as has St Ignatius. They pass these off as burseries. However gentlemen, to look up 'scholarships' and 'bursaries' in the dictionary, is to complete the same action. I challenge you to say that you would not be happy if the school you are an alumni of, or the school your offspring attends, won a premiership or championship by the means of importing players. I believe the real challenge we face here, is excluding the boys who have the potential to be great players, but find it hard to crack the top teams, due to players being scouted from all over New South Wales. Sincerely there is not much that us old boys can do, but accept the fact that it happens. The gentlemans agreement no longer exists in a form capable of stopping the wealthier schools from bringing in the best of the best. Nothing can be done, no matter how hard we try or campaign. It is too hard to police. So just hope for the best, and maybe the schools will come to their senses, and remain prestigious, with a focus on all-round aspects, rather than winning football premierships.

Wolf Out.

There's so much going on in this post.
If you think Iggies have been stacking their 1stXV to win premierships "for years" then you need to look at the list of premiers.
If you think Joeys teams are stacked have a look at their recent performances and have a look at their lower grades: they are magnificently coached from the day they arrive and it shows.

 

[Quick Hands]

may i stir up some business here or it may have been said already...as an old boy, reading these forums and remember watching 'GPS' rugby 5 or 10 years ago and seeing a mainly even playing field between all schools in the GPS competition with most years and teams having 1 or at most 2 scholarship players that played in the 1st XV.

Both Riverview, Joeys, Kings and Shore always had the upperhand as they could pick from a rugby breed and populace up in the north shore for shore and riverview and the country boarder lads from joeys and Kings.

High, Grammar, Newington and Scots were the bottom ender schools who didn't necessarily concentrate their full attention on winning rugby premierships, e.g High and slowly grammar at the time. But for them, Newington and scots, they couldn't wait to play to powerhouses of rugby and try and beat them. Sometimes they did, Sometimes they lost. Newington for instance used to pull crowds of over 10000 to see Newington try to triumph over Joeys for the inaugural 'Back to Newington Day'.

Nowadays, from 2010 onwards, Newington have won the premierships twice in 3 years, both championships, with scots coming in close behind to 2 of them, with river view getting one and Joeys now with a 3 year losing streak to Newington. The rest of the Powerhouses, struggling to find good form to topple this one used to be bottom team now sending out numerous Aus. Schoolboys and future wallabies. But this has come at a cost.

High and grammar having win not one 1st XV since the mid 00's, with Shore joining their reigns although gaining a plateau or a boom in their positioning on the ladder board.

Now there is only 6 teams in the 1st XV competition, with all onlookers of the sport seeing this as a exclusive way, of exclusive schools excluding other exclusive schools, due to fact that they haven't got onto the 'rugby/music scholarship' or the all rounder scholarship idea yet for example, when suddenly talented musicians are playing and winning 1st XV premierships and missing band performances to play the triangle in the orchestra.

Notice the puns gentlemen, and note them well, this offers of scholarships/bursaries/jesuits which are being given out secretly and carefully to numerous amounts of boys in order to win premierships and gain a foothold on parents' decisions on which schools they want to send their kids to. When infact these scholarships are taking the spots of parents willing to pay the money to send their kids to GPS schools but can't and often have to resort to send them to other known CAS/CHS schools that will take them and their money.

My solution:-

Break the gentlemen's agreement of no sporting scholarships and tell all that you have boys on scholarships in order to win premierships. But in order for this to work there should be a cap of 2 maximum full or half scholarships given to each School and for reach Sport. This means a much fairer competition and puts pressure in the Scholarship boys to perform to there maximum capability and to stand out then to drown out and become unworthy of it.



your Sincerely, GPSrow (Dr. Evil)

muahahaha

(did not specifically intend to blame any individual school, but to use one or more as examples and exemplify the group of GPS schools)

Your thoughts gents???

Very good analysis of many of the problems faced by AAGPS. In terms of rugby (and probably other activities) some of the schools have inbuilt advantages i.e. North Shore rugby demographic or high percentage of boaders. We also have 2 schools in the association whose demographic has changed due to increased empahasis on academic testing at enrolment. What we had in the early 00s was a big 4, 2 way off the pace and another 2 schools essentially playing for best of the rest status.

I always like to be positive so I hope that NC and TSC decided to do something before their rugby fell off to the position in which SGS and SHS now find themselves. Both schools seem to have fixed their opens rugby and looking at the results of 13s and 14s this year TSC have their coaching right all the way through. You'd like to think that NC are following the TSC example here.

The only one of the 6 schools playing in the 1st XV competition next year who I would be absolutely certain that most of the team started in Year 7 would be Shore. Their waiting lists number into the thousands, including sons and grandsons of old boys, so they really couldn't bring anyone in even if they wanted to. I'm old enough to remember Brett Sheehan starting at Joeys in Year 11 and Peter Jorgensen moving in Year 11 from Kings to Joeys, so while their coaching and development programme are the prime reason for their success people move there to play rugby as well. (I'm not suggesting anything about scholarships or bursaries with BS and PJ - just that they moved schools at the time that Joeys were dominant)

It's been pointed out in this thread by many that not all boys who change schools and are good at rugby are on bursaries etc.

What I find hard to go along with is that when anyone starts after year 7 at some schools there is the immediate assumption that something underhand and ungentlemanly has been done, but when it's pointed out that there are a similar number of late starters at other schools it's somehow all different. We're given a range reasons and a we wouldn't ever do anything like that etc.

As far as I know the AAGPS is a loose association of like minded schools, without any rules about penalties or sanctions and that governance essentially rests with the common sense and honour of the Head Masters/Principals. For that reason, I can't see a limit of 2 being feasible.

Interesting to note that 1 sided scores occur in many sports, but it's only rugby where it becomes an issue of physical safety. I note in the GPS/CAS Water polo on the weekend that Alos beat knox 23-6. (A huge beating in that sport)

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What I find hard to go along with is that when anyone starts after year 7 at some schools there is the immediate assumption that something underhand and ungentlemanly has been done, but when it's pointed out that there are a similar number of late starters at other schools it's somehow all different. We're given a range reasons and a we wouldn't ever do anything like that etc.

-and to overcome that assumption the recruiting drives now start in year 6.

 

[Quick Hands]

And the only solution (if indeed there is one) rests with the 8 men who occupy the offices of Head Master/Principal at the schools, who, with the possible exception of the principal of SHS, have a great deal of discretion in how their schools are run.

What these gentlemen need to consider:

How to bring deserving boys in on scholarships/bursaries, keep the AAGPS sports programme even, not skew things too much by bringing in too many players, answer the questions about boys who for many reasons change schools after Year 7, keep the school financially solvent, not be on the receiving end of floggings because you can't compete, answer the complaints of parents and old boys who think that there is too much/not enough attention to sport/academic, keep the teachers happy, ensure that NAPLAN results are good, HSC results are outstanding and no doubt many other things. I know that they're on good money, but gee I think they deserve it.

What I do believe is that if TSC and NC had allowed things to continue as they were 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been too long before we had a 2 x 4 team GPS competions in rugby which would have made things unviable. I don't necessarily agree with everything that has been done, but I think at least they've tried something. I would have preferred a 13s to opens coaching programme as in place at Joeys. It's worked for decades and is the long term fix for any school. TSC seem to be going that way and if NC follow, perhaps this issue might have largely fizzled out in another 5 years or so. The challenge then is to get SGS and SHS back up to speed.

In the short term, I think that as long as schools, parents and boys see it as being to their mutual advantage to either bolster their teams or give their son an education accompanied by a rugby pathway, then things won't change too much. I don't necessarily like it and its not just rugby, but that seems to be the reality of it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What I do believe is that if TSC and NC had allowed things to continue as they were 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been too long before we had a 2 x 4 team GPS competions in rugby which would have made things unviable. I don't necessarily agree with everything that has been done, but I think at least they've tried something. I would have preferred a 13s to opens coaching programme as in place at Joeys. It's worked for decades and is the long term fix for any school. TSC seem to be going that way and if NC follow, perhaps this issue might have largely fizzled out in another 5 years or so. The challenge then is to get SGS and SHS back up to speed.

The thing is that that is precisely the thing that would have shaken the ARU from its lethargy and indifference: it would have destroyed the ARU's ability to rely on private schools for its development because the GPS would have unravelled pretty quickly and the CAS would have followed suit, by virtue of the reduced pressure on it to compete with the GPS in rugby.
[Proof of this theory can be seen in Rowing Australia - once a GPS stronghold now the GPS is almost an irrelevance. See also cricket - a game played across the whole Australian community with no stronghold in private schools]
Back to rugby: all the arms race in rugby in the GPS has done is put off the day of reckoning in the adult game.
The unintended consequence of the delayed reckoning, however, is that the other codes have made and are making massive in-roads into areas in which rugby needed to grow, and could have grown, in order to feed its need for players - a need highlighted by recent matches, injuries and s15 performances.
Furthermore, the private schools' cherry picking from the public sector/clubs has weakened the games attraction/viability in those places and only made the ARU more dependent on the private schools.

This is an unsustainable model but its not one that the schools have any particular responsibility to pull apart.

 

[Quick Hands]

The thing is that that is precisely the thing that would have shaken the ARU from its lethargy and indifference: it would have destroyed the ARU's ability to rely on private schools for its development because the GPS would have unravelled pretty quickly and the CAS would have followed suit, by virtue of the reduced pressure on it to compete with the GPS in rugby.
[Proof of this theory can be seen in Rowing Australia - once a GPS stronghold now the GPS is almost an irrelevance. See also cricket - a game played across the whole Australian community with no stronghold in private schools]
Back to rugby: all the arms race in rugby in the GPS has done is put off the day of reckoning in the adult game.
The unintended consequence of the delayed reckoning, however, is that the other codes have made and are making massive in-roads into areas in which rugby needed to grow, and could have grown, in order to feed its need for players - a need highlighted by recent matches, injuries and s15 performances.
Furthermore, the private schools' cherry picking from the public sector/clubs has weakened the games attraction/viability in those places and only made the ARU more dependent on the private schools.

This is an unsustainable model but its not one that the schools have any particular responsibility to pull apart.

Spot on. You have succinctly encapsulated what many can see.

ARU and NSWRU are now reaping what they have sown. One would hope that the weekend match in Paris would have put to rest any doubts about the problems facing the game in Australia. There will from now on be occasional moments of success, but until NSWRU can wean itself off the 14 GPS and CAS schools, they will be few and far between.

No other major rugby playing nation relies on schools to develop their talent. No other major (or minor for that matter) sport in Australia relies on schools to develop their talent. The schools have been allowed to fill the vacuum created by the lack of proper development over decades by NSWRU.

 

[CTPE]

No other major rugby playing nation relies on schools to develop their talent.

I suggest you have a read about what the Poms have been doing for the last decade or so. They leave our Sports High Schools for dead!!

http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/CareersInRugby/Programmes/AASE/AASELeague

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Similarly in the Shaky Isles, there is NO club rugby option during the High School years.

Rugby Scholarships to various government and private schools are openly advertised.

Top Secondary School games are televised live.


(but yet Aust Schoolboys have beaten the Darkness Schoolies back to back in the last two encounters).

I think the point needing to be made in that no other major rugby playing nation relies on so few schools to develop their talent.

That being said do not underestimate the impact of the NGS/JGS development. I am sure that ARU and others would like the programme available to more kids, but there are limited resources.

Some Districts are now realising that they have a role in development as well the Village clubs, and in recent times I have heard of Randwick, West Harbour, and The Hobbits running junior academy programmes. I suspect that other Shute Shield clubs do similar with their State Champ squads in the off seasons, which are to all intents and purposes an academy programme.

The problem I see is that it is nearly all preaching to the converted. There are some junior soccer clubs in Sydneys South and West that have many hundreds of members (some in the thousands).

It is in these areas where Rugby needs to try and spread the gospel via clubland, and into the CHS and CCC education associations.

 

[Quick Hands]

I suggest you have a read about what the Poms have been doing for the last decade or so. They leave our Sports High Schools for dead!!

http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/CareersInRugby/Programmes/AASE/AASELeague

The crucial difference being that the system is run by the RFU who maintain control of their own development programmes. The big RFU clubs such as Leicester Tigers have their own academies and invest heavily in development.

 

[Quick Hands]

Similarly in the Shaky Isles, there is NO club rugby option during the High School years.

Rugby Scholarships to various government and private schools are openly advertised.

Top Secondary School games are televised live.


(but yet Aust Schoolboys have beaten the Darkness Schoolies back to back in the last two encounters).

I think the point needing to be made in that no other major rugby playing nation relies on so few schools to develop their talent.

That being said do not underestimate the impact of the NGS/JGS development. I am sure that ARU and others would like the programme available to more kids, but there are limited resources.

Some Districts are now realising that they have a role in development as well the Village clubs, and in recent times I have heard of Randwick, West Harbour, and The Hobbits running junior academy programmes. I suspect that other Shute Shield clubs do similar with their State Champ squads in the off seasons, which are to all intents and purposes an academy programme.

The problem I see is that it is nearly all preaching to the converted. There are some junior soccer clubs in Sydneys South and West that have many hundreds of members (some in the thousands).

It is in these areas where Rugby needs to try and spread the gospel via clubland, and into the CHS and CCC education associations.

New Zealand is unique though. Rugby is part of the culture there. It is their number one sport summer or winter by a long, long way. As there is no club system in the high school years, their system is unified and coherent. So in effect, their school system is their defacto club system in those years.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

More seriously than any talk of scholarships, I just wonder if the red lady from Cardiff just threw a massive elephant like curve ball into the GPS system that no one has ever wanted to talk about? If the upcoming process is serious (which I doubt) then a few of the schools may come under more than just serious scrutiny, and this might conceivably affect both the rugby and the ongoing viability of the schools in question. Best though perhaps to have influential old boys who can divert the attention to broader institutions?

You have far too much faith in quasi judicial process

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I suspect that the silence is probably because it rightly belongs in another thread.

It has nothing to do with Rugby or School Sporting Scholarships.

By all means, start a thread under "Politics" or "Everything Else" if you want to get some dialogue going.

Just be aware of the laws of libel if you are going to name names, and places. It is slightly different to have a private conversation after a few sherberts, and posting the same on a widely read public forum.

I've always found it best not to comment on issues that are before the courts or undergoing some form of criminal or judicial investigation, and if you are going to comment, it would be wise to restrict the comments to items that are already in the public domain.

If you do have factual and specific information on the issue, then it would be best that that was directed towards the appropriate authorities for them to investigate.

 

[providence]

Sage advice, appreciated.

 

[The Yugoslavian Wolf]

They deserve to be on a pedastal, they are on a different level than any of their peers.
NO ONE has as many Scholarship boys in their first XV as New.
I wonder how many of their 1st's next year actually started in year 7?

im not saying they shouldn't be put up, but along with the other schools as well. Many boys are given scholarship opportunities as they go throughout their school careers, in order to keep them at the school. 80-90% if the boys started in year 7, but were granted scholarships after showing sporting prowess.

Wolf Out.

 

[Man on the hill]

Similarly in the Shaky Isles, there is NO club rugby option during the High School years.

HughJ - can you let me know when you are telling SJRU / NSWJRU that they have to vote themselves into oblivion please. Their reaction would be 100% magic. MOTH

 

[Inside Shoulder]

HughJ - can you let me know when you are telling SJRU / NSWJRU that they have to vote themselves into oblivion please. Their reaction would be 100% magic. MOTH

One or other or some hybrid (without the present baggage and vested interest [hah]) needs to control all underage rugby in NSW - for the good of the game.
Never happen for reasons unconnected with NSWJRU/SJRU.

 

[Jaghond]

Will be very interested to hear the outcome of the NSWJRU AGM that is apparently on this afternoon.....and who will be in charge of the "secret handshake" brigade hereafter.
If anything like last year - it will simply be a case of shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic...

 

[Lindommer]

No other major rugby playing nation relies on schools to develop their talent. No other major (or minor for that matter) sport in Australia relies on schools to develop their talent. The schools have been allowed to fill the vacuum created by the lack of proper development over decades by NSWRU.

South Africa? Check out Craven Week: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craven_Week As PB has told us here, non-school junior rugby in SA is virtually non-existent.

On the matter of other sports, yer right QH. I've written extensively on G&GR rugby's the ONLY sport where the junior elite pathway is via schools, not district, sport. And it's a weakness. Cricket, athletics, AFL, league, gymnastics, soccer, tennis, swimming, etc, all rely on district sport to polish their young champions. Rowing possibly relies on school participation, but the serious development starts when rowers leave school. We really must do something about junior rugby participation rates away from the elite schools.



PS. I attended one of the elite private schools discussed here, as did my son. During his primary schooling I was secretary of one of Sydney's village rugby clubs and president of its district junior club. I've had extensive experience from both sides of the fence on this issue.

 

[angrydog]

I dont know if this one has been discussed as yet, but here goes.....A VERY reliable and accurate source has informed me that two boys who were enrolled to attend St Gregs Campbelltown in Year 11 for 2013 as fee paying boarders have withdrawn their enrolments and forfieted their enrolment fees following offers from Kings of full scholarships for yr 11 and 12. Both boys are said to be very talented footballers who were keen to be part of Gregs expanding rugby program.

According to my source the reason for their withdrawals has been confirmed by both sets of parents as being due to scholarships being offered that were "to good an opportunity" to knock back.

Neither boy is known to be outstanding scholars or amazing musicians and the only explanation for the offer from Kings appears to be sport, and namely Rugby related.

Considering the effort Gregs as been making in the past few years to build a rugby culture in the face of, and at times opposition, of it's well known and established rugby league culture this is very dissapointing and some what disgusting. My own opinion is that rugby will continue to reduce it's player depth and struggle as it is currently at the senior level if instances like this continue and the supposedly superior GPS schools just pillage the rest at the grass roots. Having one very strong schoolboys competiton in NSW/ACT is not healthy for development and as we are seeing with the destruction of rugby at SBHS and Grammar not healthy for the competition itself.

Anybody who thinks that having a select number of schools picking up kids they want at the expense at other schools and their respective competitions is a good idea or in line with the ideals of the modern professional game is deluded and I hope they are enjoying the view of seeing rugby in Australia become almost laughable. It may be nice to sit back at a test match and count how many wallabies your school has produced in the current wallabies sides but really what is the point if the wallabies are sh!t and cant stand up against the big boys year in year out.

Shame on Kings!!

Dont ask me to name my source, I wont. Dont ask me to name the kids I cant. This is very reliable information. Thanky you for your time.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Any parallels to that well know Eastern Suburbs graduate from Scots College, Jim Stewart?

The GPS arms race is well known and frequently debated on this very thread.

Can you blame the parents though?

Would you be happy with an SS Commodore procured with the sweat of your own brow, or would you take the some snake oil salesman's offer of the Audi R8 free of charge?

The "City" schools have being doing very well thank you very much from the boarders from the bush for many years.

Edit/Disclaimer:
I am not associated with Gregs, but having visited there for some primary school PSSA mungo tournaments with the Junior Jarses, I have been impressed with their facilities.

Rugby would be so much richer with a strong St Gregs XV in the ISA. Just look at what St Augies and St Pats (a bit earlier) have managed to do as they have "converted" to Heavensgame.

That has to be good for rugby, and also potentially lead other strong sporting CCC schools into rugbydom.

Broaden the pyramid, rather than concentrate it into fewer and fewer centres of excellence (AKA AAGPS, but not all of them market their rugby programmes).