rugbyscribe
Herbert Moran (7)
Just out of interest does anyone know how many scholarship beneficiaries are current Wallabies? I'm almost certain that the three amigos - Beale, Cooper and O'Connor are?
School sporting scholarships/recruitment
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CTPE
Nev Cottrell (35)
Beale went to Joeys on a scholarship, Copper went to Churchie and O'Connor went to Nudgee - don't know if either of them were on scholarships.
Gristlechewer
Charlie Fox (21)
Todays Syd Morn Herald has all the scholarhips listed for all to see for all schools in NSW. Can anyone help me out on a "social justice" scholarship and what that means? I am not that smart.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Must out and buy a copy.
How many actual triangle scholarships are there in the AAGPS and CAS schools?
How many actual triangle scholarships are there in the AAGPS and CAS schools?
Gristlechewer
Charlie Fox (21)
SOme of the AAGPS were soooo ambiguous in their offerings, BUT, if you can play the french horn or organ, you are a very saleable commodity (Check Shore and Grammer) would really help to if you are 6'3 and run the 100 in even.
One of the CAS basically said that we'll have a squizz at you, and if you fit, you're in.
Sport is mentioned and a "leadership" scholarship? I'm going for that one... "hey guys, come over here!" I led em, I'm in...
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
They all do it and have done so for a while. It just depends on where a particular school sees its priorities. Check out Alos water polo teams if you think this is confined to rugby.
What is mildly annoying is when supporters of certain GPS schools try to pretend that they would never do such a thing, while at the same time casting sanctimonious glances at their opposition.
I do believe, however, that not all boys who change schools after Year 7 are on scholarships. To suggest, as some do, that between 10 and 20 players at opposition schools are on a scholarship because that have changed schools are wide of the mark. At the current rate of fees, that would amount to between $250,000 and $500,000 a year and I really don't think that that sort of money would be viable. In many cases I'd suggest that either parents or boy are unhappy at their school and with their rugby talent they queue-jump their way into casual vacancies. These occur all the time at independent schools and are harder to fill than people think. Many on the waiting list have established themselves at another school and don't want to change, so when someone comes up and fits it with rugby/basketball/water polo/music program they get in. There are boys who have been mentioned in this and other threads as being on scholarships and I know for a fact that they aren't, but I haven't commented specifically as I don't want to be involved in individual naming of boys.
No doubt there are boys at most GPS/CAS schools on scholarships and are also good at sport. Good luck to the kids I say, but I think that they are a much smaller number than people think.
What is mildly annoying is when supporters of certain GPS schools try to pretend that they would never do such a thing, while at the same time casting sanctimonious glances at their opposition.
I do believe, however, that not all boys who change schools after Year 7 are on scholarships. To suggest, as some do, that between 10 and 20 players at opposition schools are on a scholarship because that have changed schools are wide of the mark. At the current rate of fees, that would amount to between $250,000 and $500,000 a year and I really don't think that that sort of money would be viable. In many cases I'd suggest that either parents or boy are unhappy at their school and with their rugby talent they queue-jump their way into casual vacancies. These occur all the time at independent schools and are harder to fill than people think. Many on the waiting list have established themselves at another school and don't want to change, so when someone comes up and fits it with rugby/basketball/water polo/music program they get in. There are boys who have been mentioned in this and other threads as being on scholarships and I know for a fact that they aren't, but I haven't commented specifically as I don't want to be involved in individual naming of boys.
No doubt there are boys at most GPS/CAS schools on scholarships and are also good at sport. Good luck to the kids I say, but I think that they are a much smaller number than people think.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Another thing is that the schools are geared for a certain number of kids in each year. some have suffered heavily with the GFC and so are down on numbers: it makes sense, given that the infrastructure and staff are already there, to see how many of the shortfall can be made up with concessions on fees - for kids whose faimilies might not otherwise be able to afford it.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
Agreed Quick Hands, there's plenty of reasons kids change school later and sports open up. In Victoria anyone and everyone that is willing to board tends to get a spot.
The big privet schools (with the exception of Geelong Grammar where boarding is the draw card) just can't fill their boarding spots like they used to, it's not uncommon to see a couple of country boys pop up at the start of each year level.
Perhaps this encapsulates the fact that Australia is becoming more and more centralised around its capitals.
The big privet schools (with the exception of Geelong Grammar where boarding is the draw card) just can't fill their boarding spots like they used to, it's not uncommon to see a couple of country boys pop up at the start of each year level.
Perhaps this encapsulates the fact that Australia is becoming more and more centralised around its capitals.
Man on the hill
Alex Ross (28)
Any chance of posting a link?
Gristlechewer
Charlie Fox (21)
MOTH
as I said, I am not that smart, but will enlist my trusty offsider who might be able to scan and post. If not I will take a photo?
I will attempt tomorrow
B
badger13
Guest
Quick hands. St Aloysius offers no scholarships what so ever. The majority of the recent gun water polo players; Micheal deGail, the Sindone brothers, Harrison Williams, Marcus Anderson (to an extenent his brothe Andre this years captin) all have been at the school since the junior school and have other connections to the school, such as the Sindone brothers uncle teaching at the school(until he leaves at the end of this year). So do not reference one of the only schools within the state who do not hand out any scholarships of any kind be sporting or academic. And many boys who have joined the school recently with sporting ability, Dylan good earl for example was Dux of his year at St Paul's in Manly, and have the academic credentials to be at the school. I suggest you do some research before next posting
Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
Check out Alos water polo teams if you think this is confined to rugby.[/quote]
Quick hands you fool. St Aloysius offers no scholarships what so ever. The majority of the recent gun water polo players; Micheal deGail, the Sindone brothers, Harrison Williams, Marcus Anderson (to an extenent his brothe Andre this years captin) all have been at the school since the junior school and have other connections to the school, such as the Sindone brothers uncle teaching at the school(until he leaves at the end of this year). So do not reference one of the only schools within the state who do not hand out any scholarships of any kind be sporting or academic. And many boys who have joined the school recently with sporting ability, Dylan good earl for example was Dux of his year at St Paul's in Manly, and have the academic credentials to be at the school. I suggest you do some research before next posting[/quote]
Dear badger,
You are new at this aren't you?
Settle down take a big deep breath and as an Alo's boy, a couple of flicks through the beads, and realise that this is a forum. Many, many opinions get voiced here and it is SOOOOO easy to troll. Think about you response and word correctly so as to achieve the desired result. Not what Brian Westlake does. Brian talks in the 3rd person now (Thanks HJ and George Smith!).
And don't think that any one singular school is beyond reproach for they are not.
In Rugby
Brian.
Quick hands you fool. St Aloysius offers no scholarships what so ever. The majority of the recent gun water polo players; Micheal deGail, the Sindone brothers, Harrison Williams, Marcus Anderson (to an extenent his brothe Andre this years captin) all have been at the school since the junior school and have other connections to the school, such as the Sindone brothers uncle teaching at the school(until he leaves at the end of this year). So do not reference one of the only schools within the state who do not hand out any scholarships of any kind be sporting or academic. And many boys who have joined the school recently with sporting ability, Dylan good earl for example was Dux of his year at St Paul's in Manly, and have the academic credentials to be at the school. I suggest you do some research before next posting[/quote]
Dear badger,
You are new at this aren't you?
Settle down take a big deep breath and as an Alo's boy, a couple of flicks through the beads, and realise that this is a forum. Many, many opinions get voiced here and it is SOOOOO easy to troll. Think about you response and word correctly so as to achieve the desired result. Not what Brian Westlake does. Brian talks in the 3rd person now (Thanks HJ and George Smith!).
And don't think that any one singular school is beyond reproach for they are not.
In Rugby
Brian.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I think that you need to go back and read my entry a little more carefully. The point that I was making was that boys change schools all the time for a variety of reasons and very few if any of them in my opinion are on scholarships.
Quote:
At the current rate of fees, that would amount to between $250,000 and $500,000 a year and I really don't think that that sort of money would be viable. In many cases I'd suggest that either parents or boy are unhappy at their school and with their rugby talent they queue-jump their way into casual vacancies. These occur all the time at independent schools and are harder to fill than people think. Many on the waiting list have established themselves at another school and don't want to change, so when someone comes up and fits it with rugby/basketball/water polo/music program they get in.
For example I know of 4 state level water polo players who have moved from St Augustines to St Aloysius in the past 3 years. Alos obviously have a good water polo program and the boys have changed schools. There could any number of reasons why. The same goes with rugby players who change schools.
I won't put the boys names up, but I can offer the following facts: 1 boy just finished Year 12 and started at Alos term 3 of Year 10 2010, 2 boys are currently in Year 10 and started at Alos in Year 9 2011 and the other boy started term 3 of Year 8 this year).
I have never and will never say that a boy has changed schools on a scholarship unless I have seen the documentation which proves it.
Quote:
At the current rate of fees, that would amount to between $250,000 and $500,000 a year and I really don't think that that sort of money would be viable. In many cases I'd suggest that either parents or boy are unhappy at their school and with their rugby talent they queue-jump their way into casual vacancies. These occur all the time at independent schools and are harder to fill than people think. Many on the waiting list have established themselves at another school and don't want to change, so when someone comes up and fits it with rugby/basketball/water polo/music program they get in.
For example I know of 4 state level water polo players who have moved from St Augustines to St Aloysius in the past 3 years. Alos obviously have a good water polo program and the boys have changed schools. There could any number of reasons why. The same goes with rugby players who change schools.
I won't put the boys names up, but I can offer the following facts: 1 boy just finished Year 12 and started at Alos term 3 of Year 10 2010, 2 boys are currently in Year 10 and started at Alos in Year 9 2011 and the other boy started term 3 of Year 8 this year).
I have never and will never say that a boy has changed schools on a scholarship unless I have seen the documentation which proves it.
Wood Rat
Alfred Walker (16)
schools are a business, the cost is not what they charge, with all the infrastructure in place the cost of an extra student may not be all that significant when weighed against advertising the schools ability to help students achieve potential, in fact he extra dollars they can charge full fare students on the grounds of "we can help make the man... see"
I doubt the amount lost for putting another through woulfd not be that much greater than having an empty seat
eg 2000 students parents pay an extra $50 fee when weighed as a proportion of what they already pay not even an increase/throw in the pot of 1% no one notices but you are well on the way to a couple of key players in couple of sports or given athleticism might be cross disciplinary you get great value for money with good shopping, reputation and achievement is much better than an expensive add campaign.
Given we are all born with TFNs I wonder if the tax man should be able to tax for "in kind" income
Don't forget boys will talk themselves up and want to have something their mates/competitors don't as are some of their upwardly mobile parents at the tennis/golf club (truly if you are still doing that when your nearly 50.....?) not many are above a little exaggeration any way. I would be more inclined to believe the ones that don't talk so much
I doubt the amount lost for putting another through woulfd not be that much greater than having an empty seat
eg 2000 students parents pay an extra $50 fee when weighed as a proportion of what they already pay not even an increase/throw in the pot of 1% no one notices but you are well on the way to a couple of key players in couple of sports or given athleticism might be cross disciplinary you get great value for money with good shopping, reputation and achievement is much better than an expensive add campaign.
Given we are all born with TFNs I wonder if the tax man should be able to tax for "in kind" income
Don't forget boys will talk themselves up and want to have something their mates/competitors don't as are some of their upwardly mobile parents at the tennis/golf club (truly if you are still doing that when your nearly 50.....?) not many are above a little exaggeration any way. I would be more inclined to believe the ones that don't talk so much
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Absolutely, schools use scholarships and/or bursaries according to their own purposes and priorities. All GPS and CAS schools run some sort of bursary or scholarship system. (Alos old boys and supporters please check SAC website and go to bursaries tab before sending indignant responses).
Sometimes these are purely academic or music, but many other are quite vague such as 'all rounders', 'social justice' or use a phrase such as "to allow a boy to obtain a (insert name of school or religious order) education". Each school has a fair amount of discretion in how they use these, but they fit the purposes or priorities of the school, be that rugby, basketball, rowing, cricket water polo or some other activity. There's nothing wrong with any of this, but people should not become so defensive or indignant when this is pointed out.
As to the financial side of things, schools can probably afford to have the odd vacant seat in a year group, but once there are too many vacant seats they need to fill at least some of them with paying customers. As I understand it, most scholarships and busaries have finite resources so that only the interest can be spent and the principal has to be maintained. If this is not done then they would be exhausted before too long. Happy to be corrected by an economic or fiscal guru if I have got this understanding wrong.
Sometimes these are purely academic or music, but many other are quite vague such as 'all rounders', 'social justice' or use a phrase such as "to allow a boy to obtain a (insert name of school or religious order) education". Each school has a fair amount of discretion in how they use these, but they fit the purposes or priorities of the school, be that rugby, basketball, rowing, cricket water polo or some other activity. There's nothing wrong with any of this, but people should not become so defensive or indignant when this is pointed out.
As to the financial side of things, schools can probably afford to have the odd vacant seat in a year group, but once there are too many vacant seats they need to fill at least some of them with paying customers. As I understand it, most scholarships and busaries have finite resources so that only the interest can be spent and the principal has to be maintained. If this is not done then they would be exhausted before too long. Happy to be corrected by an economic or fiscal guru if I have got this understanding wrong.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
A counter point to the 'vacant seat' theory is that most of these schools market their smaller than average class sizes.
Some of these schools with big scholarship numbers are impacting how they market themselves to the average student who has parents who want an education and probably consider sport just a cherry on top.
I don't know Sydney/Brisbane system but in Vic there are certainly 2-3 APS schools with around 20ish sporting scholarships a year level. That's just under 10% of a year level and can bring up the class size average by 2-4 students. Now, many of these are half scholarships and/or a combination of sport and academic or extra-curricular excellence, but it's still an issue.
Some of these schools with big scholarship numbers are impacting how they market themselves to the average student who has parents who want an education and probably consider sport just a cherry on top.
I don't know Sydney/Brisbane system but in Vic there are certainly 2-3 APS schools with around 20ish sporting scholarships a year level. That's just under 10% of a year level and can bring up the class size average by 2-4 students. Now, many of these are half scholarships and/or a combination of sport and academic or extra-curricular excellence, but it's still an issue.
GPSrow
Watty Friend (18)
may i stir up some business here or it may have been said already.......as an old boy, reading these forums and remember watching 'GPS' rugby 5 or 10 years ago and seeing a mainly even playing field between all schools in the GPS competition with most years and teams having 1 or at most 2 scholarship players that played in the 1st XV.
Both Riverview, Joeys, Kings and Shore always had the upperhand as they could pick from a rugby breed and populace up in the north shore for shore and riverview and the country boarder lads from joeys and Kings.
High, Grammar, Newington and Scots were the bottom ender schools who didn't necessarily concentrate their full attention on winning rugby premierships, e.g High and slowly grammar at the time. But for them, Newington and scots, they couldn't wait to play to powerhouses of rugby and try and beat them. Sometimes they did, Sometimes they lost. Newington for instance used to pull crowds of over 10000 to see Newington try to triumph over Joeys for the inaugural 'Back to Newington Day'.
Nowadays, from 2010 onwards, Newington have won the premierships twice in 3 years, both championships, with scots coming in close behind to 2 of them, with river view getting one and Joeys now with a 3 year losing streak to Newington. The rest of the Powerhouses, struggling to find good form to topple this one used to be bottom team now sending out numerous Aus. Schoolboys and future wallabies. But this has come at a cost.
High and grammar having win not one 1st XV since the mid 00's, with Shore joining their reigns although gaining a plateau or a boom in their positioning on the ladder board.
Now there is only 6 teams in the 1st XV competition, with all onlookers of the sport seeing this as a exclusive way, of exclusive schools excluding other exclusive schools, due to fact that they haven't got onto the 'rugby/music scholarship' or the all rounder scholarship idea yet for example, when suddenly talented musicians are playing and winning 1st XV premierships and missing band performances to play the triangle in the orchestra.
Notice the puns gentlemen, and note them well, this offers of scholarships/bursaries/jesuits which are being given out secretly and carefully to numerous amounts of boys in order to win premierships and gain a foothold on parents' decisions on which schools they want to send their kids to. When infact these scholarships are taking the spots of parents willing to pay the money to send their kids to GPS schools but can't and often have to resort to send them to other known CAS/CHS schools that will take them and their money.
My solution:-
Break the gentlemen's agreement of no sporting scholarships and tell all that you have boys on scholarships in order to win premierships. But in order for this to work there should be a cap of 2 maximum full or half scholarships given to each School and for reach Sport. This means a much fairer competition and puts pressure in the Scholarship boys to perform to there maximum capability and to stand out then to drown out and become unworthy of it.
your Sincerely, GPSrow (Dr. Evil)
muahahaha
(did not specifically intend to blame any individual school, but to use one or more as examples and exemplify the group of GPS schools)
Your thoughts gents???
Both Riverview, Joeys, Kings and Shore always had the upperhand as they could pick from a rugby breed and populace up in the north shore for shore and riverview and the country boarder lads from joeys and Kings.
High, Grammar, Newington and Scots were the bottom ender schools who didn't necessarily concentrate their full attention on winning rugby premierships, e.g High and slowly grammar at the time. But for them, Newington and scots, they couldn't wait to play to powerhouses of rugby and try and beat them. Sometimes they did, Sometimes they lost. Newington for instance used to pull crowds of over 10000 to see Newington try to triumph over Joeys for the inaugural 'Back to Newington Day'.
Nowadays, from 2010 onwards, Newington have won the premierships twice in 3 years, both championships, with scots coming in close behind to 2 of them, with river view getting one and Joeys now with a 3 year losing streak to Newington. The rest of the Powerhouses, struggling to find good form to topple this one used to be bottom team now sending out numerous Aus. Schoolboys and future wallabies. But this has come at a cost.
High and grammar having win not one 1st XV since the mid 00's, with Shore joining their reigns although gaining a plateau or a boom in their positioning on the ladder board.
Now there is only 6 teams in the 1st XV competition, with all onlookers of the sport seeing this as a exclusive way, of exclusive schools excluding other exclusive schools, due to fact that they haven't got onto the 'rugby/music scholarship' or the all rounder scholarship idea yet for example, when suddenly talented musicians are playing and winning 1st XV premierships and missing band performances to play the triangle in the orchestra.
Notice the puns gentlemen, and note them well, this offers of scholarships/bursaries/jesuits which are being given out secretly and carefully to numerous amounts of boys in order to win premierships and gain a foothold on parents' decisions on which schools they want to send their kids to. When infact these scholarships are taking the spots of parents willing to pay the money to send their kids to GPS schools but can't and often have to resort to send them to other known CAS/CHS schools that will take them and their money.
My solution:-
Break the gentlemen's agreement of no sporting scholarships and tell all that you have boys on scholarships in order to win premierships. But in order for this to work there should be a cap of 2 maximum full or half scholarships given to each School and for reach Sport. This means a much fairer competition and puts pressure in the Scholarship boys to perform to there maximum capability and to stand out then to drown out and become unworthy of it.
your Sincerely, GPSrow (Dr. Evil)
muahahaha
(did not specifically intend to blame any individual school, but to use one or more as examples and exemplify the group of GPS schools)
Your thoughts gents???
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
If they can't police no sporting scholarships how will they police 2?
It's a matter for the schools as to what's important by way of education: if they need to win rugby to keep the numbers up they probably need to look at their academic offerings.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's a matter for the schools as to what's important by way of education: if they need to win rugby to keep the numbers up they probably need to look at their academic offerings.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The Yugoslavian Wolf
Herbert Moran (7)
whilst schools are passing off scholarships as a way to give something back to the community, it is obvious that they are employing their sufficient finds to win premierships. Newington is only one minor culprit of this. To put them on a pedestal and denounce them is to let the other schools get away with murder. St Josephs has been doing this for years, as has St Ignatius. They pass these off as burseries. However gentlemen, to look up 'scholarships' and 'bursaries' in the dictionary, is to complete the same action. I challenge you to say that you would not be happy if the school you are an alumni of, or the school your offspring attends, won a premiership or championship by the means of importing players. I believe the real challenge we face here, is excluding the boys who have the potential to be great players, but find it hard to crack the top teams, due to players being scouted from all over New South Wales. Sincerely there is not much that us old boys can do, but accept the fact that it happens. The gentlemans agreement no longer exists in a form capable of stopping the wealthier schools from bringing in the best of the best. Nothing can be done, no matter how hard we try or campaign. It is too hard to police. So just hope for the best, and maybe the schools will come to their senses, and remain prestigious, with a focus on all-round aspects, rather than winning football premierships.
Wolf Out.
Wolf Out.
The Yugoslavian Wolf
Herbert Moran (7)
whilst schools are passing off scholarships as a way to give something back to the community, it is obvious that they are employing their sufficient finds to win premierships. Newington is only one minor culprit of this. To put them on a pedestal and denounce them is to let the other schools get away with murder. St Josephs has been doing this for years, as has St Ignatius. They pass these off as burseries. However gentlemen, to look up 'scholarships' and 'bursaries' in the dictionary, is to complete the same action. I challenge you to say that you would not be happy if the school you are an alumni of, or the school your offspring attends, won a premiership or championship by the means of importing players. I believe the real challenge we face here, is excluding the boys who have the potential to be great players, but find it hard to crack the top teams, due to players being scouted from all over New South Wales. Sincerely there is not much that us old boys can do, but accept the fact that it happens. The gentlemans agreement no longer exists in a form capable of stopping the wealthier schools from bringing in the best of the best. Nothing can be done, no matter how hard we try or campaign. It is too hard to police. So just hope for the best, and maybe the schools will come to their senses, and remain prestigious, with a focus on all-round aspects, rather than winning football premierships.
Wolf Out.
Wolf Out.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
They deserve to be on a pedastal, they are on a different level than any of their peers.
NO ONE has as many Scholarship boys in their first XV as New.
I wonder how many of their 1st's next year actually started in year 7?