SANZAR/Super rugby future format

[Spook]

Lind, where is the money going to come from to stop our players heading to Europe?

 

[Blue]

The Bulls were awful in the S12 for years. They got it together. How?

The Bulls lagged in as far as true professionalism was concerned. The Afrikaner hierarchy was ruling the Union with an iron fist and political agendas were far more important for a long time. H Meyer came in and presented a 5 year plan to get rid of crap players who were there becuase they sucked up to the right people and to get a big say as to who gets contracts. He also was an astute enough politician and strong enough to keep the admnistrators out of team selection and away from the coaching field (it was a farce before). In Meyer's third year they won. The other reason is that the Bulls have a lot of depth in their junior programmes and they started to see players coming through. Meyer had coached most of these guys when he was in the junior ranks and coaching the Culls in the Currie Cup and Vodacom Cup. They knew him and trusted him and knew what he wanted.

Oh, and money. They have a lot more of that than the Cheetahs. They are also able to attract players mroe succesfully that the Cheetahs and Lions. Mainly Afrikaans players. It is the Lager after all.

In his time Meyer had a crop of senior players who he had a tight bond with. The squad was harmonious and he controlled the egos.

Now with Ludeke there we hear about egos and som infighting but my mail is that Matfield and du Preez are taking a leading role in dealign with those kinds of issues.

So a lot of things fell into place for the Bulls but it took around five years of building to get there. Importantly they have the resources and can really have no excuses.

Dont agree with you Blue (you read to much in the politics here), watching their Vodacom side playing against Griekwas (a full blooded CC side) they show their strong structure. Thats the thing most missed. Thats what Meyer did with the Brute lot. They have the strongest structure builded by Heyneke and they will stay strong for many a year.

The Sharks dunno. They may have money at the moment but their academy is top class and draw some talent.

The Stormers will always have the strongest talent schoolboy & Varsity pool in SA and they are getting there. They waited way to long before getting that academy going but their cycle will be there within a few years. Once their top players is tops they will be on level par with the Brutes.

Paarl I am not speculating. I am well informed about the conditions under which Meyer was prepared to take the job and at the time you may recall the Bulls were in dire straits and were willing to let go of some power to turn it around.

 

[Scotty]

Very well written Lindommer. I agree with your conclusion.

If SAf don't come with us on a new Super structure Australia and NZ will cobble together an Asian/Pacific competition which will grow rugby in our region. To be honest, I think SAf has most to lose if the current negotiations fail; a completely internal competition structure is the only option as any involvment with the NH is unworkable. Then there'd be even more SAf players leave for northern shores as they look to play rugby in a wider world.

It seems the SARU are just playing silly buggers when it comes to a 6th team out of SA. Surely they realise this isn't workable with a 3x5 conference structure.

As I've said multiple times before, I believe it would be better long term for Aus and NZ to have a combined competition, with maybe some sort of champions league after involving Japanese, SA and Arg. As Spook says - how many Aussies actually watch their teams live when they are playing in SA - a very small percentage I'd guess. This makes it even more difficult to grow the game in our region - particularly at a time that league is 'treading water' as Lindommer puts it (in fact as far as player behaviour and image goes they are regressing).

 

[mark_s]

very good post lindomer! :thumb I agree with the lot of it.

 

[Blue]

Very well written Lindommer. I agree with your conclusion.

If SAf don't come with us on a new Super structure Australia and NZ will cobble together an Asian/Pacific competition which will grow rugby in our region. To be honest, I think SAf has most to lose if the current negotiations fail; a completely internal competition structure is the only option as any involvment with the NH is unworkable. Then there'd be even more SAf players leave for northern shores as they look to play rugby in a wider world.

It seems the SARU are just playing silly buggers when it comes to a 6th team out of SA. Surely they realise this isn't workable with a 3x5 conference structure.

As I've said multiple times before, I believe it would be better long term for Aus and NZ to have a combined competition, with maybe some sort of champions league after involving Japanese, SA and Arg. As Spook says - how many Aussies actually watch their teams live when they are playing in SA - a very small percentage I'd guess. This makes it even more difficult to grow the game in our region - particularly at a time that league is 'treading water' as Lindommer puts it (in fact as far as player behaviour and image goes they are regressing).

Crowd numbers at the first round league games did not suggest regression. I think we in rugby too often look for our game's salavation in league's demise.

SA is cutting off it's nose to spite its face. One explanation is that it could be lip service from Marinos. Remember when the Cheetahs got the gig the then Spears were told they would be the next cab off the rank (they even took SARU to court). There will have been a lot of pressure among internal SARU factions to push an Eastern Cape position if there was another license available, which there is now. I think a large part of SARU's claim to the franchise coming to SA is to pay lip service to those factions. Even Marinos must know it's doomed. HE wants to keep his job and his job relies on votes (as does Hoskins'). So at least they want to appear that they "fought" for it. The exact same argument could hold for the Currie Cup. The powers that be may know that it has to change. They need to make the right noises though. The Currie Cup is not as rosy as everyone thinks. Most of the regular season sees empty stands until the pointy end. They should reduce it to a two month comp with six teams - let the sixth be the Spears / Kings / Watshenyis whatever.

Yes Lindnommer there you are quite right to observe thre is laager mentaility at play here but understand it is driven from the inside. They way things work in SA rugby is that the big provinces align with the smaller ones and make promises to them in order to get their votes on the president's council. One promise that has been dragged along for five years now is the Eastern Cape team. We are seeing the result of SAR
SARU politics at its hairiest.

 

[rustycruiser]

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/03/16/sas-simple-super-rugby-solution/

Above article on Keo comes to many of the same conclusions as Blue re: the health of the Currie Cup. Honestly, it only heats up once the Boks are back. How healthy is it that only 5 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. The rest of the provinces are also rans, with no chance of ever winning the Cup. Last year, the playoff spots were basically decided by player depth. Because the Western Province B team lost a few games to the also rans, even though they were going like gangbusters once the Boks came back, they missed the semis. Eliminate the also rans, play a home and away with six sides (Big 5 plus Spears) and call it a day. Hell, even I (as a rugby mad South African) don't give a crap about games involving the Valke, Griquas, Boland, Pumas etc.

 

[Biffo]

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/03/16/sas-simple-super-rugby-solution/

Above article on Keo comes to many of the same conclusions as Blue re: the health of the Currie Cup. Honestly, it only heats up once the Boks are back. How healthy is it that only 5 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. The rest of the provinces are also rans, with no chance of ever winning the Cup. Last year, the playoff spots were basically decided by player depth. Because the Western Province B team lost a few games to the also rans, even though they were going like gangbusters once the Boks came back, they missed the semis. Eliminate the also rans, play a home and away with six sides (Big 5 plus Spears) and call it a day. Hell, even I (as a rugby mad South African) don't give a crap about games involving the Valke, Griquas, Boland, Pumas etc.

head, nail, hit. everyone geddit?

 

[PaarlBok]

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/03/16/sas-simple-super-rugby-solution/

Above article on Keo comes to many of the same conclusions as Blue re: the health of the Currie Cup. Honestly, it only heats up once the Boks are back. How healthy is it that only 5 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. The rest of the provinces are also rans, with no chance of ever winning the Cup. Last year, the playoff spots were basically decided by player depth. Because the Western Province B team lost a few games to the also rans, even though they were going like gangbusters once the Boks came back, they missed the semis. Eliminate the also rans, play a home and away with six sides (Big 5 plus Spears) and call it a day. Hell, even I (as a rugby mad South African) don't give a crap about games involving the Valke, Griquas, Boland, Pumas etc.

head, nail, hit. everyone geddit?

Well I dont get it.

Those big 5 poach the smaller ones best players, so they play a all important role for them. Also forgetting about the important part the youth teams is playing (U19s & U21s) from all the provinces. Took that away and you'll be left with 10 times the amount of youngsters going north iso staying and going through the SA ranks.

 

[Blue]

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/03/16/sas-simple-super-rugby-solution/

Above article on Keo comes to many of the same conclusions as Blue re: the health of the Currie Cup. Honestly, it only heats up once the Boks are back. How healthy is it that only 5 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. The rest of the provinces are also rans, with no chance of ever winning the Cup. Last year, the playoff spots were basically decided by player depth. Because the Western Province B team lost a few games to the also rans, even though they were going like gangbusters once the Boks came back, they missed the semis. Eliminate the also rans, play a home and away with six sides (Big 5 plus Spears) and call it a day. Hell, even I (as a rugby mad South African) don't give a crap about games involving the Valke, Griquas, Boland, Pumas etc.

head, nail, hit. everyone geddit?

Well I don't get it.

Those big 5 poach the smaller ones best players, so they play a all important role for them. Also forgetting about the important part the youth teams is playing (U19s & U21s) from all the provinces. Took that away and you'll be left with 10 times the amount of youngsters going north iso staying and going through the SA ranks.

So 5 teams that get their arses kicked week in and week out is the reason players who do not have a S14 contract are staying in South Africa? Sorry Paarl. That makes no sense. You really think the ones who have no S14 contract are staying becuase they are in the Valke squad? I think not.

The good players will get a S14 contract. That's something to aspire to. Some will slip through the cracks, but they already do. Do the Valke, Griquas etc have development programs that mean anything? Not last time I checked.

I think our rugby will get better with a smaller CC. Think about it for a minute without a Boland hat on. More really competitive games and we essentially have the same players playing together for the entire year. The big ones will still pick the good players from the small ones. Nothing changes.

Something has to give. Of course we all know that the smaller Unions in SA hold a skewed number of votes so this is unlikely to work. The more I think about it though the more it makes commercial sense.

Think about a CC with six teams, a home and away game each for each matchup, and a final. Much better. Valke Schmalke. We need to look after the big picture here.

 

[PaarlBok]

Currently we have a 8 Premier Division (Bulle, WP, OVS, Tvl, Natal, Boland, Griekwas, Luiperds)top provinces and 6 first division (Border, Griffons, EP, Pumas, SWD & Valke) split. The S14 franchises is fully professional at the moment and the others semi proffesional. BUT thats the top lot. The CC have three legs like the U21s & U19s which is very important. The top cycle a rugby player goes in SA is schoolboy Craven week, Academies (Bulle, WP, Cheetahs, Sharks, Leopards) first year, get into the U19 CC (thats where he have to show himself to get a provincial U21 contract) on to U21 and Vodacom Cup , CC, S14, Bokke. Thats the high road. The middle road is not making Craven Week and the university route. Plenty of Maties going the Boland route. Studying at Maties and play for Boland U19 & U21s and CC. Once he got there he sort of get into the S14 franchises by showing his mettle in all the not S14 franchises. Took them away and they may end up playing club rugby or plying his trade elsewhere. The lower route is club rugby.

 

[PaarlBok]

Took Marius Joubert as a example. He did not play WP Craven Week. He took the Boland route and I can promise you a lot of youngsters doing this. I mean in my area between Stellenbosch and Paarl (30 kms from another) we have four big rugby schools (Paarl Gim, Paarl Boishaai, Boland Landbou & Paul Roos). Trust me WP Craven Week wont beat Paarl Gim in a game of rugby for many reasons. WP can only acomodate 50 youngsters at their academy. If you dont play Craven Week a Paarl Gym boy will have to pay R80,000 to get into the academy. Now what dad wants to pay the money for a year of rugby iso let him go study. A year course with acomodation at Maties will cost you R40,000 per year. So two years of getting yourself a paper behind your name paid for a professional job. That Matie kid needs Boland to just maybe play himself to a S14 contract in 4 years time and getting himself a professional job.

Look at the Leopards. Took them away and you lose our first Academy and tons of Pukke students in rugby. Look at the Lions at the moment. They dont use the Leopards oppertunity and they lost out on players going elsewhere and coaches. Pukke won our club champions last year.

If I was a Aus poacher, thats the area I will target. Those kids just out of school and who missed Craven Week by the colour of their skin and playing rugby for a strong SA Rugby School first team. I am talking about schools like Paarl Gym who have 20+ rugby teams and 7 in the U18 age group.

 

[cyclopath]

Excellent post, Lindommer - I only had time to read it now, had to work today and didn't have a spare hour! ;D
One of the points you raise which I think is very important is that of respect.
Basically the theme from many NZ and SA posters (more on ANOTHER forum than here) is that Australia and O'Neill should just get fucked, or be "put in his place" or whatever.
Ultimately I feel he is doing (somewhat abrasively) what he ought to do - trying to forward Australian rugby.
The fact that some feel he should just be told to shut up (by Marinos and / or Tew) and that they should do whatever is best for their Union is irony of the highest order. At the end of the day, Australia is regarded as the little brother - don't really have the history / tradition / 100 year results etc to justify making a noise. Same thing from the NH.
I note he didn't actually say the SA had to "give up" the Currie Cup, but that it may not be able to have its Springboks IF an expanded S14 the later Test season came into play. Same thing for the NZRU and the NPC.
If the reality is that NZ and SA can make just as much money from touring back and forth each year (not my idea, but proposed by at least one regular poster here, and many others elsewhere) with themselves, why haven't the respective unions formulated a plan to that effect? Maybe they understand the economic forces better than many posters on internet forums. At least Tew does, I suspect.
The reality is that S14 probably should grow - exactly how I don't know. I doubt it would be by the lunatic plan of a 6th SA team based in Aus. The 3N risks becoming stale, as does the Bledisloe with too many tests, and clearly offshore tests a la HK may help offset that.
Finally, the question many NZers should be asking is what the hell is Tew doing? O'Neill at least comes out with some ideas, and sure he loves the media more than most, but a lot of what he said, especially about ways the S14 might expand, and perhaps not playing in 36 degree heat make sense.

 

[rustycruiser]

http://www.keo.co.za/2009/03/16/sas-simple-super-rugby-solution/

Above article on Keo comes to many of the same conclusions as Blue re: the health of the Currie Cup. Honestly, it only heats up once the Boks are back. How healthy is it that only 5 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. The rest of the provinces are also rans, with no chance of ever winning the Cup. Last year, the playoff spots were basically decided by player depth. Because the Western Province B team lost a few games to the also rans, even though they were going like gangbusters once the Boks came back, they missed the semis. Eliminate the also rans, play a home and away with six sides (Big 5 plus Spears) and call it a day. Hell, even I (as a rugby mad South African) don't give a crap about games involving the Valke, Griquas, Boland, Pumas etc.

head, nail, hit. everyone geddit?

Well I dont get it.

Those big 5 poach the smaller ones best players, so they play a all important role for them. Also forgetting about the important part the youth teams is playing (U19s & U21s) from all the provinces. Took that away and you'll be left with 10 times the amount of youngsters going north iso staying and going through the SA ranks.

It's not that the smaller provinces will go away, Paarl. Just shift them to the B side of the Currie Cup. Realistically, the Valke, Griquas and Boland belong there anyway. The players they have will still play and develop, and get poached by the bigger unions just like now. The B Currie Cup can start like it does now in June/July, overlapping the 3N. The A Currie Cup will start after the 3N when they get the Boks back. 6 strong teams slog it out in two months, rather than the 5 month long ordeal now involving far too many insipid matches and teams. Face it, the Currie Cup is an after thought until the Boks get back.

Although the above is all meaningless. Because the 14 provinces control the SARU board, they would never allow themselves to be relegated. We are stuck with the current (crap) structure.

 

[rustycruiser]

Excellent post, Lindommer - I only had time to read it now, had to work today and didn't have a spare hour! ;D
One of the points you raise which I think is very important is that of respect.
Basically the theme from many NZ and SA posters (more on ANOTHER forum than here) is that Australia and O'Neill should just get fucked, or be "put in his place" or whatever.
Ultimately I feel he is doing (somewhat abrasively) what he ought to do - trying to forward Australian rugby.
The fact that some feel he should just be told to shut up (by Marinos and / or Tew) and that they should do whatever is best for their Union is irony of the highest order. At the end of the day, Australia is regarded as the little brother - don't really have the history / tradition / 100 year results etc to justify making a noise. Same thing from the NH.
I note he didn't actually say the SA had to "give up" the Currie Cup, but that it may not be able to have its Springboks IF an expanded S14 the later Test season came into play. Same thing for the NZRU and the NPC.
If the reality is that NZ and SA can make just as much money from touring back and forth each year (not my idea, but proposed by at least one regular poster here, and many others elsewhere) with themselves, why haven't the respective unions formulated a plan to that effect? Maybe they understand the economic forces better than many posters on internet forums. At least Tew does, I suspect.
The reality is that S14 probably should grow - exactly how I don't know. I doubt it would be by the lunatic plan of a 6th SA team based in Aus. The 3N risks becoming stale, as does the Bledisloe with too many tests, and clearly offshore tests a la HK may help offset that.
Finally, the question many NZers should be asking is what the hell is Tew doing? O'Neill at least comes out with some ideas, and sure he loves the media more than most, but a lot of what he said, especially about ways the S14 might expand, and perhaps not playing in 36 degree heat make sense.

I don't begrudge John for doing his job. He should be protecting Australia's interests. I just think the way he goes about it is retarded. Fighting boardroom battles through the media, and antagonizing your partners seems counterproductive. I wish that all the three representatives would just shut up, lock themselves in a room, and hammer out a solution. The only thing I want to hear in the newspapers is the terms of the agreement they reached. But perhaps I am naive.

 

[PaarlBok]

Well Rusty I am all for what you say and qoute. We are on level par here, dunno if ONeil say the same thing tho

 

[Spook]

I find it amusing that O'Neill that is getting flamed and not SARU. Look at the list of SARU demands (as I wrote at TSF):

1. They want more revenue than they are getting now from the TV deal - that is they want 45%. That would leave NZ and OZ to fight over 55%. SARU already receive the lions share. This is interesting one..SARU actually rely more on TV money than both NZRU and ARU have make more from sponsorship, etc. The ARU and NZRU actually make more money than SARU.
2: They want a 6th team. Now the extra team has been awarded to the Australian conference...but SARU insists this should still be a South African team. It's frankly bizarre.
3. SARU want a January start. Again, a ridiculous idea.
4: SARU did not approve a 6 team final series because they insist that each country should field 2 teams at finals time. How is that competition? The next step for SARU will be to insist that one of these teams is the Spears or Southern Kings or what they are callled. Get fucked.

 

[Blue]

Currently we have a 8 Premier Division (Bulle, WP, OVS, Tvl, Natal, Boland, Griekwas, Luiperds)top provinces and 6 first division (Border, Griffons, EP, Pumas, SWD & Valke) split. The S14 franchises is fully professional at the moment and the others semi proffesional. BUT thats the top lot. The CC have three legs like the U21s & U19s which is very important. The top cycle a rugby player goes in SA is schoolboy Craven week, Academies (Bulle, WP, Cheetahs, Sharks, Leopards) first year, get into the U19 CC (thats where he have to show himself to get a provincial U21 contract) on to U21 and Vodacom Cup , CC, S14, Bokke. Thats the high road. The middle road is not making Craven Week and the university route. Plenty of Maties going the Boland route. Studying at Maties and play for Boland U19 & U21s and CC. Once he got there he sort of get into the S14 franchises by showing his mettle in all the not S14 franchises. Took them away and they may end up playing club rugby or plying his trade elsewhere. The lower route is club rugby.

I donlt understand why you bring up all these other comps. Nobody wants to touch them. They are irrelevant to this discussion. Let a sixth combined Border / EP team play in Divsions 1 and drop the other three. Rest stays the same

 

[Blue]

Took Marius Joubert as a example. He did not play WP Craven Week. He took the Boland route and I can promise you a lot of youngsters doing this. I mean in my area between Stellenbosch and Paarl (30 kms from another) we have four big rugby schools (Paarl Gim, Paarl Boishaai, Boland Landbou & Paul Roos). Trust me WP Craven Week wont beat Paarl Gim in a game of rugby for many reasons. WP can only acomodate 50 youngsters at their academy. If you dont play Craven Week a Paarl Gym boy will have to pay R80,000 to get into the academy. Now what dad wants to pay the money for a year of rugby iso let him go study. A year course with acomodation at Maties will cost you R40,000 per year. So two years of getting yourself a paper behind your name paid for a professional job. That Matie kid needs Boland to just maybe play himself to a S14 contract in 4 years time and getting himself a professional job.

Look at the Leopards. Took them away and you lose our first Academy and tons of Pukke students in rugby. Look at the Lions at the moment. They dont use the Leopards oppertunity and they lost out on players going elsewhere and coaches. Pukke won our club champions last year.

If I was a Aus poacher, thats the area I will target. Those kids just out of school and who missed Craven Week by the colour of their skin and playing rugby for a strong SA Rugby School first team. I am talking about schools like Paarl Gym who have 20+ rugby teams and 7 in the U18 age group.

We are not going to take anything away. I fail to see your point. The Matie kid still plays for Boland.

Changing things will not suddenly open the door for poachers. I can't understand how you come to that conclusion. If they we're after young kids they will target them regardless of what the upper structrure looks like. :nta:

 

[Blue]

I find it amusing that O'Neill that is getting flamed and not SARU. Look at the list of SARU demands (as I wrote at TSF):

1. They want more revenue than they are getting now from the TV deal - that is they want 45%. That would leave NZ and OZ to fight over 55%. SARU already receive the lions share. This is interesting one..SARU actually rely more on TV money than both NZRU and ARU have make more from sponsorship, etc. The ARU and NZRU actually make more money than SARU.
2: They want a 6th team. Now the extra team has been awarded to the Australian conference...but SARU insists this should still be a South African team. It's frankly bizarre.
3. SARU want a January start. Again, a ridiculous idea.
4: SARU did not approve a 6 team final series because they insist that each country should field 2 teams at finals time. How is that competition? The next step for SARU will be to insist that one of these teams is the Spears or Southern Kings or what they are callled. Get fucked.

Like I said earlier on a lot of what is happening is that Marinos is paying lip service top all the SARU cronies. I think it was all pretty calm until O'Neill said that the Currie Cup is not professional rugby. That sent everyone into a tailspin.

It has become a public battle and to me makes O'Neill and Marinos look like equally big tosspots.

I think if you were able to sit MArinos down and squeeze an honest answer out of him, he would not want the Spears in the comp. His job depends on looking liek he is fighting for it. Nobody in SA want a Spears team in the comp except the Spears themselves.


"Now the extra team has been awarded to the Australian conference" - has this been done? Who awarded it? O'Neil'll has. Nobody else.

Edit: SARU and O'Neill should both get themselves fucked they are equally to blame for this shambles.

 

[Novocastrian]

I find it amusing that O'Neill that is getting flamed and not SARU. Look at the list of SARU demands (as I wrote at TSF):

1. They want more revenue than they are getting now from the TV deal - that is they want 45%. That would leave NZ and OZ to fight over 55%. SARU already receive the lions share. This is interesting one..SARU actually rely more on TV money than both NZRU and ARU have make more from sponsorship, etc. The ARU and NZRU actually make more money than SARU.
2: They want a 6th team. Now the extra team has been awarded to the Australian conference...but SARU insists this should still be a South African team. It's frankly bizarre.
3. SARU want a January start. Again, a ridiculous idea.
4: SARU did not approve a 6 team final series because they insist that each country should field 2 teams at finals time. How is that competition? The next step for SARU will be to insist that one of these teams is the Spears or Southern Kings or what they are callled. Get fucked.

Like I said earlier on a lot of what is happening is that Marinos is paying lip service top all the SARU cronies. I think it was all pretty clam until O'Neill said that the Currie Cup is not professional rugby. That sent everyone into a tailspin.

It has become a public battle and to me makes O'Neill and Marinos look like equally big tosspots.

JON didn't say the CC/NPC wasn't professional rugby did he? I thought he said that SANZAR couldn't support 2 levels of professional rugby ie Super rugby and the professional domestic comps in SA/NZ?