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SANZAR/Super rugby future format

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barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Calm down boys, it's only a game ;)

I tink you both have a point, but neither of your arguments have any relevance because no team will ever be booted from the current format. Yes, the Cheetahs have a poor record, but for what its worth I quite like the brand of rugby they play and they are by no means pathetic. And Paarl I see your point that the Reds aren't much better.

Getting back to the thread topic, the idea of a 6th South African team playing in the Australian conference disadvantages both nations. There are no winners. SA will send a presumably young, inexperienced side to play here, where presumably they will be near the bottom of the ladder. In turn, we will suffer from having a sub-standard overseas side in our conference, which will affect crowd numbers and ratings, not to mention depriving us of a 5th franchise.

It's not that SA doesn't deserve a 6th franchise. Its that the idea of this team playing in an all Aussie pool is totally ludicrous and in no-ones best interests.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
We had Willem Strauss, rugby promotor on our sport news this morning. He suggest they get a second tier S14 going based over a few weeks and they should include the others plus maybe a few teams from the Argies , Japan and PI's. Then promore /regelate whoever and get the top ones in maybe a S10/12/14. This 2nd tier competition can easily be held in SA according to him. Also said there is no way we will even thinking going north other then maybe money. The SANZAR SH Nations are well set.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
PaarlBok said:
Blue said:
That's interesting but a player's origin is totally irrelevant in the modern era. It applies to all sports. The idea of a franchise holding on to local talent becomes a 100% cmmercial issue in a professional sport. If they can pay, and create an environment where players want to be, they will go there. The problem is that Bloemfontein is a place that a lot of people just want to get out of. It's a shithole. If a kid from Bloem gets a call from cape Town he is goneski.

Yes the Free State and EC schools have produced lots of good talent, but who really moulded them into great players? The Western Cape, Natal, Pretoria and to a an extent the Lions through their develpopment structures. It is the status quo. A new franchise wonlt suddently have Kankowski and Russel breaking down the door.

The Cheetahs having a fracnchise has made no difference in four years. They have got worse and I fear will get worse yet. There are maybe five or six players that a Sharks team or Bulls team would take on board.

The good players are buggering off. I agree with Hugh Bladen. SA should have three franchises.
OK Blue so we agree that the EC and Cheetahs have the schoolboy base to work from and I also agree with Hugh Bladen (altho I dont rate him at all as a knowledable rugby person, looks more then a drunk falling off hotel balconies) , Fatty and you that we dont want the extra team. BUT that is as it is at the current moment.

I also rate Heyneke Meyer (flippen interesting to listen to his views now on SS). Look what he did with the Bulls. Not long ago the same lot write them off. The only thing he did is to create the right structure. Rumours have it that he'll be the first person Cheeky Watson will appoint if they get the S14 franchise.

As far as the Cheetahs and academies goes. You know the Bulls and Sharks have theirs first up and running. The Cheetahs will bear their fruits through this, just given enough time. You see in the Varsity Cup the two southern uni's at the top. Maties sure tap on the WP Academy and already Paarwater mentioned , he just waiting for the Varsity Cup to finish to tap that resources for WP's Vodacup side. They are one year in front of the Cheetahs.

You say the players travel, I dont totally agree there. Senior players like Fourie du Preez, Matfield (he tried and was back in a instant), Schalk Burger & Jean de Villiers make the heart of their franchises and they wont even go to other SA provinces. Thats just the way it is with our lot.

I think we lose the most players to the NH and at the moment our franchise is doing better then in previous years. Lots and lots of young players goes , coming through our schoolboy structure and leave because they simply havent get the oppertunity to play at the top level.

The notion that players who are from the Eastern Cape will flock back to PE is absurd.

Of course players haven't left as much from the Cape. We were talkign about the Cheetahs remember. They are the ones losing more players than other franchises in SA.

Paarl, you know you don't have to convince me about Heyneke.

The bottom line is academy or not, players will leave the Free State for money and a better lifestyle.

I can't see how an academy will help in the next 5 years.+

Just watched the Blues Cheetahs game. What a disaster. Now add three or four good academy players to the mix. Can you honestly tell me it will make a difference? No. It's years and years away and even then it's a lottery.
 

rustycruiser

Billy Sheehan (19)
The problem is twofold for the Cheetahs re: their players leaving. 1) Bloemfontein is, well Bloemfontein. Not exactly Durbs or Cape Town. The people born there leave, and people born elsewhere certainly don't want to move there. But the far bigger problem is 2) money. The reason that the Cheetahs lost 18 players last year (the most of any South African team), as well as their coach, fitness coach, forwards coach etc over the last three years is the Free State Union doesn't have the same bankroll as the Stormers, Sharks, and Bulls. Pretty hard to compete with the big boys when the playing field is tilted against you from the start. And it is only going to get worse. The Cheetahs stadium is going to continue to stay empty due to their performance, and that further loss of income is going to contribute to the further decline. Even with their acadamy, they are still going to lose players to the Sharks, Bulls, and Stormers (be it their academies or the actual sides.)
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Scarfman said:
The Bulls were awful in the S12 for years. They got it together. How?

The Bulls lagged in as far as true professionalism was concerned. The Afrikaner hierarchy was ruling the Union with an iron fist and political agendas were far more important for a long time. H Meyer came in and presented a 5 year plan to get rid of crap players who were there becuase they sucked up to the right people and to get a big say as to who gets contracts. He also was an astute enough politician and strong enough to keep the admnistrators out of team selection and away from the coaching field (it was a farce before). In Meyer's third year they won. The other reason is that the Bulls have a lot of depth in their junior programmes and they started to see players coming through. Meyer had coached most of these guys when he was in the junior ranks and coaching the Culls in the Currie Cup and Vodacom Cup. They knew him and trusted him and knew what he wanted.

Oh, and money. They have a lot more of that than the Cheetahs. They are also able to attract players mroe succesfully that the Cheetahs and Lions. Mainly Afrikaans players. It is the Lager after all.

In his time Meyer had a crop of senior players who he had a tight bond with. The squad was harmonious and he controlled the egos.

Now with Ludeke there we hear about egos and som infighting but my mail is that Matfield and du Preez are taking a leading role in dealign with those kinds of issues.

So a lot of things fell into place for the Bulls but it took around five years of building to get there. Importantly they have the resources and can really have no excuses.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
rustycruiser said:
The problem is twofold for the Cheetahs re: their players leaving. 1) Bloemfontein is, well Bloemfontein. Not exactly Durbs or Cape Town. The people born there leave, and people born elsewhere certainly don't want to move there. But the far bigger problem is 2) money. The reason that the Cheetahs lost 18 players last year (the most of any South African team), as well as their coach, fitness coach, forwards coach etc over the last three years is the Free State Union doesn't have the same bankroll as the Stormers, Sharks, and Bulls. Pretty hard to compete with the big boys when the playing field is tilted against you from the start. And it is only going to get worse. The Cheetahs stadium is going to continue to stay empty due to their performance, and that further loss of income is going to contribute to the further decline. Even with their acadamy, they are still going to lose players to the Sharks, Bulls, and Stormers (be it their academies or the actual sides.)

If John O'Neill was running SA rugby, he'd find and impose a way to ensure all teams were on a more or less level playing field.

Witness recent speculation that the Force might fold after Giteau's (re)defection. O'Neill steps up and pronounces that the Force will not be allowed to fail.

I can't get the mindset of SARU officials - it seems they do not want all S14 teams to be competitive. Certainly their inaction to even things up suggests something rotten in the state of ....?
 
P

PhucNgo

Guest
I only waded into this after reading the ferals going at it on TSF. I'm not really up to spead on all the posturing, but it would seem to me that the SARU have missed something if they're seriously proposing that an SA team compete in a proposed Aus conference. Have they forgotten so easily the Rathbone Effect. Bring 'em on. They won't be back in a hurry. :fishing
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Blue said:
Scarfman said:
The Bulls were awful in the S12 for years. They got it together. How?

The Bulls lagged in as far as true professionalism was concerned. The Afrikaner hierarchy was ruling the Union with an iron fist and political agendas were far more important for a long time. H Meyer came in and presented a 5 year plan to get rid of crap players who were there becuase they sucked up to the right people and to get a big say as to who gets contracts. He also was an astute enough politician and strong enough to keep the admnistrators out of team selection and away from the coaching field (it was a farce before). In Meyer's third year they won. The other reason is that the Bulls have a lot of depth in their junior programmes and they started to see players coming through. Meyer had coached most of these guys when he was in the junior ranks and coaching the Culls in the Currie Cup and Vodacom Cup. They knew him and trusted him and knew what he wanted.

Oh, and money. They have a lot more of that than the Cheetahs. They are also able to attract players mroe succesfully that the Cheetahs and Lions. Mainly Afrikaans players. It is the Lager after all.

In his time Meyer had a crop of senior players who he had a tight bond with. The squad was harmonious and he controlled the egos.

Now with Ludeke there we hear about egos and som infighting but my mail is that Matfield and du Preez are taking a leading role in dealign with those kinds of issues.

So a lot of things fell into place for the Bulls but it took around five years of building to get there. Importantly they have the resources and can really have no excuses.
Dont agree with you Blue (you read to much in the politics here), watching their Vodacom side playing against Griekwas (a full blooded CC side) they show their strong structure. Thats the thing most missed. Thats what Meyer did with the Brute lot. They have the strongest structure builded by Heyneke and they will stay strong for many a year.

The Sharks dunno. They may have money at the moment but their academy is top class and draw some talent.

The Stormers will always have the strongest talent schoolboy & Varsity pool in SA and they are getting there. They waited way to long before getting that academy going but their cycle will be there within a few years. Once their top players is tops they will be on level par with the Brutes.
 

Moses

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Is this just a typo from Growden?

Australia and New Zealand are eager for the new tournament to begin in March and end in August, playing through the June Test window and overlapping the Currie Cup in South Africa and the National Pacific Championship in New Zealand. However, South Africa are opposed to this, pushing for a late January-early February start, so that it does not clash with their "holy grail"- the Currie Cup, which begins in July.
 
S

Spook

Guest
This is getting interesting. Are the Saffs going to piss off then? Will it be a Super 12 pacific competition?
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
Spook said:
This is getting interesting. Are the Saffs going to piss off then? Will it be a Super 12 pacific competition?

I think there will be a lot of aggresive targetting of players if the pacific competition needs to find 90 players to fill out three new teams. I am sure that SA teams will be one of the targets.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Noddy said:
will Australia be better off with a larger piece of a smaller pie in this scenario?

Nod, how many Oz viewers actually watch the Aussie games in SA? How much is the Japanese team worth?

Check this out. SARU need to come clean on whether their 6th side is a black team or not:

SUPER 14 RUGBY

New kings on the block

By Thebe Mabanga

The upcoming British & Irish Lions rugby tour will be used to support the launch of SA's newest rugby franchise on Youth Day, June 16. The Lions will also be asked to commemorate the "young lions" of SA's liberation struggle.

This emerged at a hearing of the parliamentary portfolio committee on sport two weeks ago.

Cheeky Watson, president of the Eastern Province Rugby Union, told the committee that the new team will be launched at the Lions' match against the Coastal XV in Port Elizabeth on June 16. It's hoped that the Southern Kings (the team's unofficial name) will in due course be admitted to an expanded Super 14 competition, which at present involves five sides each from SA and New Zealand and four from Australia.

The team will be formed from the Eastern Province Mighty Elephants and the Border Bulldogs. The new franchise aims to tap into the Eastern Cape's deep rugby tradition in African communities.

There are 14 provinces affiliated to the SA Rugby Union (Saru). When the Currie Cup is played, the five Super 14 provinces play in the premier division with three other sides. The remaining six teams play in the first division.

However, last year the Elephants and Bulldogs in effect finished 13th and 14th - the bottom two positions in the Currie Cup - with only six wins between them. In the Vodacom Cup (played without the 150 or so Super 14 players), the two Eastern Cape sides also finished bottom in their section, with just two wins between them out of 14 matches.

So there are concerns about whether a combined team will be able to compete at Super 14 level, even if entry is delayed until 2011, as seems likely.

However, others see the objections as motivated by racism. MPs were sceptical that the launch of the new franchise would enjoy Saru's support. But Saru spokesman Andy Colquhoun says Saru has made a "vigorous" case for the Southern Kings to be included in the Super 14. A decision is expected in June.

WHAT IT MEANS
New franchise for black rugby hotbed
Questions remain over quality and funding

Colquhoun says it costs about R30m a season to run a Super 14 franchise.

At the parliamentary meeting, portfolio committee chairman Butana Khompela said he would like to see the Lions commemorate June 16 along with the rest of SA. "It wasn't animals that died that day, it was thousands of our people," he said in reference to the 1976 Soweto uprising.

Andre Homan, Saru project manager for the tour, says the Lions will donate "more than R1m" towards John Walton, a traditional black rugby school in Uitenhage in the Eastern Cape.


The Lions' 10-match tour starts at the end of May and they play the first of three tests against the Springboks in Durban on June 20.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
WHAT IT MEANS
New franchise for black rugby hotbed
Questions remain over quality and funding

Colquhoun says it costs about R30m a season to run a Super 14 franchise.

At the parliamentary meeting, portfolio committee chairman Butana Khompela said he would like to see the Lions commemorate June 16 along with the rest of SA. "It wasn't animals that died that day, it was thousands of our people," he said in reference to the 1976 Soweto uprising.

Andre Homan, Saru project manager for the tour, says the Lions will donate "more than R1m" towards John Walton, a traditional black rugby school in Uitenhage in the Eastern Cape.

Ah the politics of SA, this ain't about rugby.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
The SARU 6th rugby team is pretty much widely considered a joke which will just add another weak SA team to go with the Cheetahs. Someone mentioned on TSF that it's probably only a crazy idea to counter JO'N, but the problem is, I don't think it is. A 5th Australian team though, even with a fair few overseas players, won't be much stronger than the Cheetahs, and I have my doubts over whether the ARU could really support it or pay for the overseas players anyway. Any attempt to make it half of PIs will just be seen as a cynical Aussie attempt to poach players (which it may turn into, anyway).

Ultimately, I think something will give and Super rugby in its current state will collapse. The SARU value the Currie Cup too highly, and the ARU desperately want a domestic competition replacement. I can see SARU finally chossing the Currie Cup over Super rugby, and NZRU and ARU going their own way with a Pacific solution. Only problem is that Japan is in the NH, and their summer (which is VERY hot and VERY humid) is in June. Can't see Japan being involved like that.

But for now, the best thing from my perspective is the status quo until the GFC blows over and a clearer vision of the money available for other options is available.

As much as the Kiwis don't want to admit it, the NPC is dying a slow death, bleeding money, and the NZRU has been unable to save it in recent years with its changes. The best thing, perhaps, is for Australia to slyly start trying to insert provincial teams there, as much as the old farts like Sydney Uni would hate it (assuming the current clubs just aren't moved - which would be stupid, moving city clubs into a provincial competition!). That way we could leverage off the NZers for a strong provincial comp.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Ash did you read about the Super 12 proposal? 5 kiwi sides, 5 Aussie sides, a pi side and a Japanese side?
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
from today's Australian. Wayne Smith's one of the more sensible rugby writers in Oz.
SOUTH African Rugby has rejected the proposed "Pacific solution" that would have seen Australia and New Zealand go it almost alone with a trans-Tasman Super rugby competition, but otherwise is attempting to end the brinksmanship threatening to tear SANZAR apart.

There has been a steady escalation of tension among the three SANZAR partners as the June 30 deadline to present the organisation's proposal to News Corporation ahead of a new broadcast deal has drawn closer, with Australia and South Africa at loggerheads over which country should be awarded the 15th franchise in an expanded Super competition. New Zealand has its own frustrations with South Africa, particularly over the start date of the expanded competition. Australia and New Zealand want the start of the proposed 22-week competition pushed back to late February or March but that would extend Super rugby into August. South Africa, however, has refused to move its second-tier Currie Cup competition to accommodate the proposed 15-team series and even suggested the Super rugby start date should be earlier, not later. Faced with what seemed an implacable South Africa, the two Anzac partners had begun investigating setting up a trans-Tasman competition also involving teams from the South Pacific and Japan to begin in 2011. Only towards the end of this competition would South Africa become involved, with its leading sides playing off against the tops teams in the Australasian conference for the Super rugby title.

But in an exclusive interview with The Australian yesterday, SA Rugby's acting chief Andy Marinos said he had told Australia and New Zealand the trans-Tasman option was not a goer as far as South Africa was concerned. "I don't think playing in a championship final between Australasia and South Africa would be attractive to SA broadcasters or the SA public," Marinos said. That effectively leaves only two courses of action: for South Africa to go it alone, and perhaps play in a European competition; or for the SANZAR partners to cool down and reach a compromise. Somewhat unexpectedly, at least from an Australian perspective, Marinos is advocating the latter, insisting a compromise could be reached on all the major sticking points. Indeed, he even took issue with the suggestion that there was an impasse. "I wouldn't necessarily view it in that dramatic a light," Marinos said. "What we've clearly got is three countries that have very different backyards and very different competition structures that they've been dealing with and it's never easy to get it to sync into one happy format. "The reality is that there is going to have to be some compromise on all fronts to make sure it goes forward."

That said, SA Rugby is sticking to its guns in arguing that the Southern Kings, the designated mixed-race team from the heavily populated Eastern Cape, deserves to be admitted, even though South Africa already has agreed the expansion team will play in the Australian conference to create three five-team conferences. Asked how that would work, Marinos replied: "I don't see it as any different to a Japanese, or Canadian, or for that matter New Zealand team playing in the Australian conference." Significantly, however, he acknowledged the final call would be SANZAR's and that if Australia was just as adamant in support of its candidate city - most likely Melbourne - then cool heads would have to make the decision. "We're educated men," he said. "We can all have entrenched views. But once all the information is sitting on the table, we'll be able to come to a decision."

Marinos said a range of factors from commercial viability to franchise infrastructure would have to be considered but he deliberately shied away from hammering the perceived weakness of the Australian bid, namely that it does not have the playing strength to support a fifth Super rugby team. "It's not our right to comment on Australia's playing strength. We've seen the Western Force come into the competition (in 2006) after there had been a juggling of players within Australia and the Force has gone on to perform really well," he said. "The equal argument could be made about the performances of some of the South African sides in recent years."

While acknowledging that South Africa would not devalue its Currie Cup competition, he rejected media reports yesterday that a recent meeting of SA's principal rugby stakeholders was a virtual council of war. "I chaired that meeting and no journalist interviewed me afterwards," said Marinos, who described the report that South Africa was putting together a rival competition as "fantastic". "South Africa isn't going to be capitulating. But from a South African perspective, we're going to work as hard as we can to reach some real middle ground."

The current round has undoubtedly been the most difficult set of negotiations on the future of SH rugby to date. Earlier negotiations centred on our agreed desire to get professional rugby up and running matched with a roughly identical set of goals. Super rugby has worked well for the last 13 years and should be retained; keep in mind it's relatively young compared to 5/6 Nations, Currie Cup, etc. But we have a long and proud history of rugby in this country with Sydney University Football Club ranked as the fourth or fifth (there is some debate here) oldest rugby club in the world and the NSWRU has been around for about 130 years. The three SANZAR partners NEED each other to maintain strong SH professional competitions which in turn keep SH rugby strong.

One of the directions I dread about professional sport is the advent of private ownership. It's a curse, pure and simple. A private owner's ambitions invariably become different to the health of the sport and competition in which the team competes. For a start no one wants to come last (obviously someone must) and private owners often spend up big trying to avoid the dreaded wooden spoon. The issue of debt servicing quickly becomes paramount, as it did with Leeds United collapsing under a mountain of some 50 million pounds of debt resulting in all decent players sold off before ending up in England's third division of soccer. Manchester United can only just keep their head above water because they're so successful, as soon as their performances slip they'll be in deep shit. This narrow view of private owners has raised its ugly head in the current SANZAR negotiations as the CC team owners wish to protect their payTV contract income to service their debts; they have no interest in the greater good of SH rugby and its progress which threatens to leave them behind. Do we in the SH wish to end up in a perpetual shitfight like English rugby's in with the club owners always pulling in a different direction to the RFU? They don't give a toss about the national team and won't even let their English team representatives off a day early for national squad training. Why do you think there are so many foreigners in Guinness Premiership (and French T14) squads? These players stick around while the 6 Nations is on and aren't knocked about on SH tours. Simple as that. And the disagreements over access to players for national squad preparation in English and French rugby pale in comparison to the constant, massive shitfight in soccer. The major European clubs have FIFA and soccer by the balls and treat international fixtures with contempt. Do we want that in Rugby? Rugby tests should be valued and protected.

We in the SH have been fortunate to keep our pyramid model of rugby competitions where all clubs and teams are owned by the rugby community, apart from some SAf CC teams. Every rugby team in Australia and NZ is totally committed to the success of the team immediately above it in their pyramid. Ireland and Wales have similar models (and no private owners) and I can't help thinking this is a major contributing factor to their current success. Considering the number of players in England and France, Ireland and Wales have consistently boxed above their weight since the advent of professional rugby.

If we in the SH could pause for a moment and consider our partners' rugby environments we may be able to make meaningful progress in the current round of negotiations. Some points:

Australia
  • We've managed our meagre rugby resources very well in the last 40 or so years. I think it was 1975 we beat an English touring side 2-0 and we've been ranked in the top five rugby nations since. Australia's one of two countries to have won the RWC twice and I'd argue our victories rank above SAf's as they were both away. On this point alone we feel Australian rugby deserves a level of respect from our SH brothers. Although rugby talent's spread thinly across our Super teams like a boarding house scrape of butter, it'd be fair to say we've covered nearly every spreadable bit of the slice of bread.
  • There's no doubt Australia doesn't have the same quality depth in player numbers as NZ and SAf do. Funnily enough there are roughly the same number of rugby players in Australia and NZ, but Kiwis have been much more successful with their representative structures over the last 100 or so years. We've had two strong rep sides where they've had ten. Every union gets a say at the NZRFU table and all feel they have the opportunity to develop a side to take on the stronger unions; the minor states in Australia can't say that. NZ rugby's been very generous providing regular contact with Australian teams over the last 35 years, games which have helped us develop our rugby enormously. And the Super/TriNations competitions with our SH brothers have helped us develop our rugby even further.
  • The winter football competitions in Australia are unique to us and probably aren't fully understood by Kiwis and Saffers. Firstly, AFL is extremely popular over the whole country. It is very, very well run as well being financially stable (in fact it's a credit to us as Australians AFL is run so successfully in such a small population). AFL takes up a lot of media space in winter and tends to crowd the other codes out. And they're currently planning to expand with new teams in western Sydney and the Gold Coast.
    Moving on to rugby league which, in my opinion, will tread water for the forseeable future as it struggles to hold on to its existing supporters. No matter how much league tries to expand it consistently fails. The latest cities with new clubs, Auckland, Townsville and Gold Coast, have already had two failures with the Warriors and Titans rebirths after earlier deaths. By my reckoning the only country where rugby league's the top football code is Papua New Guinea. Elsewhere it seems to be stuck in a ghetto of the north of england, north-east Australia and south Auckland. On another level league competes with rugby for players as most islander youths play/have played both codes and usually wander off to one of them in their twenties, as do a lot of young Aussies and Kiwis. And league gets massive coverage in the yellow press and on commercial TV up the eastern seaboard. For those who don't know, league is much more popular than rugby in Queensland.
    Our SH brothers probably don't understand the power of soccer in Australia and its enormous popularity among middle class mothers. It's simple for small children to play, there's little or no body contact and girls can take part equally with boys. The unique multicultural mix of Australian society has given soccer a solid foundation as a lot of the lower level adult soccer clubs are still ethnic. The current professional competition, the A-League (set up by O'Neill due to some fuckwits at the ARU dispensing with his services in 2003 :angryfire:) is going from strength to strength and will expand later this year with two new clubs in Queensland. Soccer (and AFL) seem to have the ability to attract hard-nosed businessmen to their clubs; it shits me to tears to read of Paul Ramsay (the owner of Ramsay Health Care) taking equity in Sydney FC while espousing his rugby background. Then I read he went to Riverview! What did I expect? We still have far too many of the leather patch brigade in Australian rugby, some who seem too interested in their personal comforts while interfering in the micro-management of our professional teams. What I'd do for a Frank Lowy somewhere in Australian rugby.

South Africa
  • There are many strengths and weaknesses in SAf rugby; for one, the internal traditions culminating in the Currie Cup and they are to be admired. For another, the ability to remain competitive despite all attempts by the clowns running the country to interfere in the administration of rugby for their petty ends. The wish to keep those CC and other traditions undoubtedly reflect a desire by SAf whites to hold on to a piece of SAf history which they feel was uniquely theirs. But getting into bed with the devil (in SAf's case, the black-dominated government) to attain those aims is fraught with danger. We in Australia and NZ abhor government interference in sporting matters, other than to hand over the money and to build stadiums. We understand the predicamant in which SAf rugby finds itself due to the history of black/white relationships and you have our sympathy. However, from an outsider's position, and reading the team sheets, SAf rugby still seems to be dominated by Boers and has a long way to go be truly representative of SAf society. If you in SAf look at the current eastern Cape suggestion from the Australasian point of view you're asking us to weaken our joint rugby competition in an attempt to solve some of your social problems. It's unfortunate an initial diagreement about future progress seems to have brought out the worst in SAf society with Saffers concerned immediately forming a laager to protect their supposed interests. And the SAf alickadoos and politicians mustn't be seen to be either pushed around by JON or be backing down from a position which, in their eyes, reflects badly on SAf. We are all in SANZAR together; it must be an inclusive, not an exclusive, body.
  • The ructions in SAf society allied with the weakness of the rand would seem to contribute to the exodus of SAf players to Europe and the introduction of private equity in some of the CC teams. This has the unfortunate manifestation of the private owners insisting on their interests being protected. I can only assume the guarantee of Springboks competing in the CC resulted in a significantly different broadcast fee being offered in the payTV contract; how can the CC team owners guarantee Bokke participation? Surely only SA Rugby can do that? Has SA Rugby got into bed with the CC team owners? This is where private equity has its dangers: the owners must service their debt and couldn't give a fuck about the overall scheduling of rugby in the SH. The next time anyone in SAf brings up the issue of the S14 starting date remind them it was a Saffer, Juan Smith, who collapsed in Brisbane due to heat exhaustion. February's too bloody hot to be playing rugby in Australia and we should never have agreed to start the competition so early when we set it up in 1996. For SAf to suggest a January start is utter madness.
  • The suggestion to add a sixth SAf side to compete in the Australian conference, with its massive travel difficulties, while the fifth SAf side, the Cheetahs, need a transfusion of money, talent, heart, etc., is testing the relationship. How can either SAf or NZ object to all three countries having five teams each? I can say no more.

New Zealand
  • There's this little country down the arse end of the earth which is extremely good at one thing, New Zealand and rugby. NZ's success in rugby is to be admired by all, especially by rugby tragics on this side of the ditch. They really have overachieved for the last century; as one of only two countries where rugby's the game of the people (Wales the other) they deserve every success they get. But this constant success in rugby has led to a smug attitude in their rugby community: they don't have enough respect for others. They should keep in mind the "others" provide teams for Kiwis to play against and competitions for them to compete in.
  • NZ is lucky the country's so small and rugby is uniformly popular thoughout the length of the land. The NZRFU was structured so every union got an equal say at the big table which resulted in more than a handful of unions being strong at any particular time. Manawatu and Taranaki have had their moments in the sun, as did King Country when Pinetree and his brother turned out for them. Vic Cavanagh revolutionised rugby with his development of backrow play during his stewardship of Otago during the 20s, the advent of modern rugby. This breadth of political influence and opportunity is what has made NZ rugby continuously strong, something I'm very envious of in Australia.
  • The relatively small size of NZ and its economy does have its drawbacks, and being next to a big bastard like Australia doesn't help. The constant emigration of Kiwis across the ditch (including my grandmother) while the economy can't support a growth in population provides us with a steady supply of rugby players. NZ, thank you.
  • The advent of professional rugby allied with the current global financial crisis has presented NZ rugby with a few problems. To put it simply the NZRFU can't afford to run a semi-pro Air New Zealand Cup while supporting the five Super sides. Something has to give. If a lifeline comes from others, via Newscorp and Foxtel, so be it. At least this way NZ rugby keeps ownership of the code and retains control of its destiny.
  • There's a bit of a "dog-in-the-manger" attitude in NZ about helping Australian rugby; some Kiwis feel any further assistance will only make Australia stronger which may condemn NZ rugby to regular defeat by Australian teams. It ain't going to happen, due to the reasons I set out above; during the last 30 years, since Cornelsen's test in Auckland when we've been competitive against the ABs, we still haven't cut even on the results ledger.

If SAf don't come with us on a new Super structure Australia and NZ will cobble together an Asian/Pacific competition which will grow rugby in our region. To be honest, I think SAf has the most to lose if the current negotiations fail; a completely internal competition structure is the only option as any involvement with the NH is unworkable. Then there'd be even more SAf players leave for northern shores as they look to play rugby in a wider world.

I hope I've contributed to the discussion and spread some oil on troubled waters (but not if you're on the Sunshine Coast 8)). We need to continue developing our competitions which have resulted in the SH dominating the NH and to do something to help all three countries reverse the payer drain.

Comment away.

PS.To see how many SH players there are in Europe, check playerdrain.com
 
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