RWC Wallabies v USA - 23 September

[Dan54]

I think it real important that Wallabies win this one well, I not convinced they can't win this pool yet. Ities could just knock over the Irish.

 

[kiap]

I hope the Wallabies have made sure they're not sharing water bottles etc.

I wonder who Patient Zero was?

The boys need some crates of tinned baked beans sent over, Warnie-style.

 

[darkhorse]

What's your thoughts behind Horne being out of position?

I must say I'm not champing at the bit for him to start there in a quarter. I would just like to see it, especially from the tahs pov, but it would definitely have its benefit and he could do a good job in a pinch.

I think he is a good player that could be great at any moment. I would like nothing more to see him make the wallaby 13 jersey his own, but atm I think he still needs a bit of developing. I think he could benefit from time on the wing and still be very effective. I know he has always played in the centres, but it must be one of the easier positions to get used to - Deans had no problem putting JOC (James O'Connor) - and he has so much gas.

Whilst I can't question his prowess in defence, atm I don't think he offers all that much in the centres in attack. IMO he will be a devestating centre when he fills out and develops a bit more power, but atm he is just a kid who is bloody quick and goes extraordinarily hard. I think alot of his plaudits come from sheer admiration for his guts.

In super rugby, I've waited for him to show his potential in attack, but the few flashes he has shown generally have been from using his pace and burning people on the outside, which would be more effective on the wing. At centre he doesn't seem to break tackles or find a gap all that often. To be fair none of our centres do atm and I wouldn't be all that concerned to see him at inside instead of McCabe. IMO opinion he is our future test 13, but could perhaps use some years developing on the wing - ala stirlo, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and others - where he can use his pace. I'm not suggesting he replace Ioane, Mitchell or perhaps even JOC (James O'Connor). I just think he has struggled to make the impact people have expected from him as he has been thrown into a very psychically demanding position at such a young age.

Also from a selfish provincial point of view, I would like to see him and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the starting next year and I don't think Carter is going to be dropped any time soon - besides I have come to appreciate the role he fulfills. Alot of people have assumed that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will play fullback, but I think he is a much better centre. The guy wants to play there as well and the fullback role seems to have changed. Mitchell was originally recruited to fill that position and if he can get into similar form then I reckon having him involved as much as possible would be a great idea.
So I'm hoping for pretorius, barnes, turner, carter, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), horne, mitchell. Sorry to get off the thread topic

 

[hammertimethere]

Australia vs Yanks centres and further general musings - redefining midfield roles

I was looking at Robbie Deans team for this week, where he opted to play Horne at 12 and Ant at 13. My instinctive response was dismay, after all, how could a man as obviously capable and rugby savvy as Dingo not fathom he was playing the two options (notice I didn't say best options necessarily) not in their natural positions? Ant is a workhorse with decent defensive skills, a moderate running game and aggression over the ball, and Horne is bone-rattling hitter and tackle shredder (at his best). Surely they are the wrong way around?

Being an ex-backrower, I have no clue as to why this interests me as much as it does, but I believe that sometime since 2008-2009, the roles of international (and arguably Super Rugby) midfielders have been swapped to some degree. I lived for a long time on a diet of Horan bobbing and weaving and slipping tackles at 12, with Herbert, Mortlock et al. and even Digby Ioane (for a season) savagely and brutally winning the battle at the gainline, their immense power, acceleration and running lines putting the fear of god into the opposition.
Then in 2008 I sat down and watched as Ma'a Nonu really exploded onto the scene, his physique making him somewhat of an oddity in the ranks of Test 12's of the time, with maybe Jauzion excepted (I actually thought at the time that He and Conrad smith should swap, and that Uncle Ted was blind for not seeing it). But what really did it for me was watching how effective, individually and in combination, Jamie Roberts and Brian O'Driscoll were on the 2009 Lions tour. Suddenly here was some hulk throwing his weight around, crashing over the gainline, defending like a man possessed, offloading, getting his legs pumping and setting up his silky-stepping, razor sharp partner for breaks. Classic I thought, bloody brilliant. Except the Neanderthal had 12 on and the cheeky little bugger had 13.

Thus in my head began percolating ideas about how the roles of centres would evolve over say the next 8-10 years. Now I'm not the first to say this (In fact the highly impressive Scott Allen has been driving home the point fairly often around here) but I firmly believe that the role of the 12 and 13 are subtly different now than they used to be.
Nowadays In a 12, I believe coaches look for (in priority order)
- Physical presence and contact skill at the gainline (in attack and defense)
- short passing skills or offloading
- understanding with 10 and running lines
- low error rate
- tactical kicking game
- flair
- skills on the ground, for the pilfer or counter ruck --> less important with new interpretations.

In a 13 I think they look for
- Ability to set up back 3 (distribution)
- low error rate
- Defensive ability (mostly communication and tackle accuracy, dominant tackling a real bonus)
- usually speed and footwork
- Support play, particularly on inside breaks
- Individual flair.
- tactical kicking option

As I said above, this is not necessarily new thinking, however I believe this excellent forum to be the #1 place where I can quantify my thoughts and get them on paper.

Hopefully this will bring discussion of what this means in terms of Australian midfield play. What cattle would combine the best if I am indeed correct? I personally am relatively excited by the prospect of Horne at 12, I have always wanted to see him play there. I am equally excited at the possibility of seeing an AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Horne pairing at some point in the match. I have long thought this would be a good combination regardless of which numbers they wear (though I am leaning towards AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 12 Horne 13 currently, but that tends to change at the drop of a hat).

It is turbulent times to be a Wallaby supporter, so perhaps theorising and throwing some near meaningless hypotheticals will do us good

 

[tigerland12]

Shit, good first post mate haha

 

[Waylon]

The great man..........Lee Grant...........likes Horne at 12

That'll do me

 

[Swarley]

Thus in my head began percolating ideas about how the roles of centres would evolve over say the next 8-10 years. Now I'm not the first to say this (In fact the highly impressive Scott Allen has been driving home the point fairly often around here) but I firmly believe that the role of the 12 and 13 are subtly different now than they used to be.
Nowadays In a 12, I believe coaches look for (in priority order)
- Physical presence and contact skill at the gainline (in attack and defense)
- short passing skills or offloading
- understanding with 10 and running lines
- low error rate
- tactical kicking game
- flair
- skills on the ground, for the pilfer or counter ruck --> less important with new interpretations.

In a 13 I think they look for
- Ability to set up back 3 (distribution)
- low error rate
- Defensive ability (mostly communication and tackle accuracy, dominant tackling a real bonus)
- usually speed and footwork
- Support play, particularly on inside breaks
- Individual flair.
- tactical kicking option

Great first post mate, welcome to the forum.

Looking at this, it reminds me of the Quade Cooper/Digby Ioane combination during the 2009 Spring Tour. Stories about their attacking prowess dominated the Rugby media coverage- that is, until, the Scotland fiasco. They worked really well together. Quade was eliminating the poor handling skills that plagued his early Reds days, and Digby was starting to fulfill his potential after a few wilderness years. If I recall correctly, however, they were poor defensively. Their defensive misreads led to a fair few opposition breaks, including one that led to Brian O'Driscoll's game-drawing try against Ireland. But attack-wise, they were ideal. I'm not suggesting this could happen now- the Genia/Cooper combo is one of the Wallabies biggest strengths, breaking it would be insane- but they seem to fill most of the aforementioned criteria. Quade has short passing skills and brilliant offloading ability, good understanding of #10 play, a fairly low error rate (nowadays), and a solid kicking game with plenty of flair. He clearly is defensively below-par, but he's not nearly as bad as some would have you believe. Digby covers the #13 checklist almost in its entirety, albeit without tactical kicking skills or a great ability to distribute. However, when you factor Barnes and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) into the equation, in theory it should be a brilliant quintet. In attack, with Cooper #10, Barnes at #12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) # at 13 with Digby playing a roaming winger/outside centre role, they cover it all. Quade's brilliant wide passing game can compensate for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Digby's seeming inability to distribute consistently. With Barnes, we bring defensive prowess, and thus solve the two biggest flaws in our midfield game-plan. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) brings another tactical kicking option, as do Barnes, Mitchell and/or O'Connor. Also, with Giteau gone, there's a lot more room to move due to the fact our fly-half isn't running sideways across the pitch, really emphasising Quade's long passing game. With Deans' "play what's in front of you" mantra, it's vital that the Wallabies pick a backline that accommodates this blurred positional play, and a backline of:

Attack/Defense
9. Genia
10. Cooper/Ioane
11. Ioane/Beale
12. Barnes
13. Ashley-Cooper
14. Mitchell or O'Connor (attack and defense)
15. Beale/Cooper

I feel sorry for McCabe in all of this. He's done an exceptional job playing the game the way he's been asked to, but we desperately need the short passing skills, tactical kicking game and understanding with the fly-half that Barnes brings to the fold. He's perfect foil to the enigmatic Cooper, with his level-headed vision balancing out the backline in tandem with 'Mr. Consistent' Ashley-Cooper.

For now though, Horne should perform pretty well at #12. He's a great defender who makes plenty of dominant tackles, has great ball skills, runs great lines, makes few errors and still brings flair. I'd have preferred to see how Barnes is going after his long lay-off, but this is a very interesting experiment.

 

[Richo]

Shit, good first post mate haha

Absolute cracker.

 

[Hawko]

I must say I'm not champing at the bit for him to start there in a quarter. I would just like to see it, especially from the tahs pov, but it would definitely have its benefit and he could do a good job in a pinch.

I think he is a good player that could be great at any moment. I would like nothing more to see him make the wallaby 13 jersey his own, but atm I think he still needs a bit of developing. I think he could benefit from time on the wing and still be very effective. I know he has always played in the centres, but it must be one of the easier positions to get used to - Deans had no problem putting JOC (James O'Connor) - and he has so much gas.

Whilst I can't question his prowess in defence, atm I don't think he offers all that much in the centres in attack. IMO he will be a devestating centre when he fills out and develops a bit more power, but atm he is just a kid who is bloody quick and goes extraordinarily hard. I think alot of his plaudits come from sheer admiration for his guts.

In super rugby, I've waited for him to show his potential in attack, but the few flashes he has shown generally have been from using his pace and burning people on the outside, which would be more effective on the wing. At centre he doesn't seem to break tackles or find a gap all that often. To be fair none of our centres do atm and I wouldn't be all that concerned to see him at inside instead of McCabe. IMO opinion he is our future test 13, but could perhaps use some years developing on the wing - ala stirlo, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and others - where he can use his pace. I'm not suggesting he replace Ioane, Mitchell or perhaps even JOC (James O'Connor). I just think he has struggled to make the impact people have expected from him as he has been thrown into a very psychically demanding position at such a young age.

You must have missed the day Horne played for the Tahs against the Hurricanes. That day he taught Conrad Smith, arguably the world's best 13, a lesson he'll never forget. Horne completely and utterly dominated him.

 

[Skippy]

It's funny... I actually wanted Quade to serve his 'apprenticeship' in the Wallaby ranks by playing 12 for a few seasons. His passing game and second receiver ability would be great for the team. I liked the idea of a combo of Quade at 12 with a cooler older head at 10 like Barnes or Gits. And obviously they could interchange positions as required.
Lynagh served his apprenticeship at 12 outside Ella before moving into 10 once he had learned how to 'boss' or control a game.
RE Quade's tackling. To be honest I'm one of his biggest critics. The move to 15 in defence I think has really unsetled Beale and the backline in general this season.
Quade can tackle. He isn't shy of contact. When he was at 12 on the EOYT he had no problems putting in a tackle... his problem is that his technique was non existent. He just wanted to hit and forgot to follow through/hold/finish the tackle. Often he just simply goes for the ball. But I think at 12... he was forced to defend and whilst not great I saw signs of improvement. And let's be honest, at 12 on the drift defence nowadays you probably only make 6-12 one on one tackles a game?
What needed to happen was, Quade was given another year at 12 I think and forced to work on his defence outside Barnes/Gits however there form/injuries seemed to fast track Quade into 10 (along with his form).
Quade isn't shy of contact situations... when in attack against Ireland he took the ball into contact several times. The problem is, he doesn't like to get on the floor. And i think this probably has more to do with having an excited young kid mentality who just doesn't want to 'not be involved'. I think Quade views being on the floor at the bottom of the ruck a waste of his ability to run the ball. so he tries to offload, throw flick passes and 'stay alive' rather than be on the bottom of the ruck. Benji Marshall adopts a similar philosophy.

 

[Swarley]

I think Barnes, Quade and Beale will all take turns at acting as 1st receiver. That way Quade isn't attempting the 'miracle play' every time he gets the ball, Beale has more ball action so he might resist the temptation to chip the ball every time he gets it, and Barnes can steady the play a bit more and calm our often-erratic backline.

 

[fatprop]

The most interesting selection was Rob Horne at inside-centre, even though he has played most of his recent football for the Waratahs and Wallabies at outside-centre.

''We like his directness in attack and defence,'' Deans said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...ted-warning-20110921-1klaz.html#ixzz1YcPxM1YP

 

[Swat]

And let's be honest, at 12 on the drift defence nowadays you probably only make 6-12 one on one tackles a game?

Pat McCabe would be inclined to disagree

 

[the plastic paddy]

It's funny... I actually wanted Quade to serve his 'apprenticeship' in the Wallaby ranks by playing 12 for a few seasons. His passing game and second receiver ability would be great for the team. I liked the idea of a combo of Quade at 12 with a cooler older head at 10 like Barnes or Gits. And obviously they could interchange positions as required.
Lynagh served his apprenticeship at 12 outside Ella before moving into 10 once he had learned how to 'boss' or control a game.
RE Quade's tackling. To be honest I'm one of his biggest critics. The move to 15 in defence I think has really unsetled Beale and the backline in general this season.
Quade can tackle. He isn't shy of contact. When he was at 12 on the EOYT he had no problems putting in a tackle... his problem is that his technique was non existent. He just wanted to hit and forgot to follow through/hold/finish the tackle. Often he just simply goes for the ball. But I think at 12... he was forced to defend and whilst not great I saw signs of improvement. And let's be honest, at 12 on the drift defence nowadays you probably only make 6-12 one on one tackles a game?
What needed to happen was, Quade was given another year at 12 I think and forced to work on his defence outside Barnes/Gits however there form/injuries seemed to fast track Quade into 10 (along with his form).
Quade isn't shy of contact situations... when in attack against Ireland he took the ball into contact several times. The problem is, he doesn't like to get on the floor. And i think this probably has more to do with having an excited young kid mentality who just doesn't want to 'not be involved'. I think Quade views being on the floor at the bottom of the ruck a waste of his ability to run the ball. so he tries to offload, throw flick passes and 'stay alive' rather than be on the bottom of the ruck. Benji Marshall adopts a similar philosophy.

Quade cooper at 12 would be an interesting selection!:lmao:

 

[rotary hoe]

Pat McCabe would be inclined to disagree

Another Pat apologist?? Yes he tackles well but for the sake of a balanced team we would be much better off without him.

 

[BarneySF]

Quade cooper at 12 would be an interesting selection!:lmao:

I think we played that combo against Wales in 09 to good effect. Also that's exacatly what Carter did - play at 12 whlie serving under Mehrtens was it?

 

[Grandmaster Flash]

I think we played that combo against Wales in 09 to good effect. Also that's exacatly what Carter did - play at 12 whlie serving under Mehrtens was it?

It was 12 Cooper and 13 Ioane for England(W), Ireland(D) and Wales(W). Cross came in for Ioane against Scotland.

 

[Swarley]

It was 12 Cooper and 13 Ioane for England(W), Ireland(D) and Wales(W). Cross came in for Ioane against Scotland.

So they obviously were pretty successful as a midfield duo. I think #12 suits Quade pretty well, likewise Digby and #13. However, I think Quade playing a swapping role with Barnes will work best, so the opposition don't know how to defend properly and so that he's not shouldering all the pressure. Digby's scored his tries coming of the wing looking for the ball (often in the centre channel), but he's best used at #13 when your wider strike-power is limited, ala Reds 2009- his big breakthrough season.

 

[rotary hoe]

It's funny... I actually wanted Quade to serve his 'apprenticeship' in the Wallaby ranks by playing 12 for a few seasons. His passing game and second receiver ability would be great for the team. I liked the idea of a combo of Quade at 12 with a cooler older head at 10 like Barnes or Gits. And obviously they could interchange positions as required.
Lynagh served his apprenticeship at 12 outside Ella before moving into 10 once he had learned how to 'boss' or control a game.
RE Quade's tackling. To be honest I'm one of his biggest critics. The move to 15 in defence I think has really unsetled Beale and the backline in general this season.
Quade can tackle. He isn't shy of contact. When he was at 12 on the EOYT he had no problems putting in a tackle... his problem is that his technique was non existent. He just wanted to hit and forgot to follow through/hold/finish the tackle. Often he just simply goes for the ball. But I think at 12... he was forced to defend and whilst not great I saw signs of improvement. And let's be honest, at 12 on the drift defence nowadays you probably only make 6-12 one on one tackles a game?
What needed to happen was, Quade was given another year at 12 I think and forced to work on his defence outside Barnes/Gits however there form/injuries seemed to fast track Quade into 10 (along with his form).
Quade isn't shy of contact situations... when in attack against Ireland he took the ball into contact several times. The problem is, he doesn't like to get on the floor. And i think this probably has more to do with having an excited young kid mentality who just doesn't want to 'not be involved'. I think Quade views being on the floor at the bottom of the ruck a waste of his ability to run the ball. so he tries to offload, throw flick passes and 'stay alive' rather than be on the bottom of the ruck. Benji Marshall adopts a similar philosophy.

The best analysis I have read of Quades defensive flaws.
What annoys me most are the ''gutless'' calls.
He plays flat in attack,runs straight at the defence and throws the flat pass and gets SMASHED.
Time and time again. Most c.... on internet forums are fat washed up forwards who think they are hard.
In my experience anyway.Is relatively easy to smash another fat bloke or prepare yourself to make a tackle.
But when you are slight and open up your whole body(to throw the beautiful passes he throws) to get smashed by a backrower 40 kgs more than you at velocity,takes big balls. One of the gutsiest foootballers I have ever seen.Cue outrage from ignos.

 

[hammertimethere]

. With Deans' "play what's in front of you" mantra, it's vital that the Wallabies pick a backline that accommodates this blurred positional play, and a backline of:

Attack/Defense
9. Genia
10. Cooper/Ioane
11. Ioane/Beale
12. Barnes
13. Ashley-Cooper
14. Mitchell or O'Connor (attack and defense)
15. Beale/Cooper


Thats an important point I think, and one that most of us (including me) scoffed at when the lack of size in our backline was first publicly highlighted in 2009 and start of 2010 (remember "The Incredible Shrinking Wallabies" article in the SMH). I was filthy about the lack of big, ball busting specialists in favour of fleet footed utilities. However maybe now after these young players have developed as utilities, and as they begin to settle into specialist roles (Beale at FB, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) mostly at 13, JOC (James O'Connor) god knows where, probably wing/12), hopefully what we'll see is an ability to play those different offensive/defensive roles smoothly. An ability that most other test teams don't really have.
I do like your proposed backline, However I personally think we leave Beale at Fullback in D, just do a direct swap Cooper /Ioane in defense. Also, as I said earlier I am actually intrigued by the possibility of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Horne centre pairing. Maybe this won't ALWAYS be the best combination. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) seems to me to possess the quintessential 12 skill set as it now seems to be. He's an immensely powerful ball runner (see right hand fuck off fend), reliable and fairly often dominant defender. His long passing game is average but his short passing is pretty good (offloading as yet unseen but I don't doubt he could), running lines brilliant, good boot. Not much more needs to be said about Horne at 13 other than he possesses many of the same traits except I think marginally better positional play and alot better ball skills and distribution. Robbie had it right when he began gravitating toward 2 workers in the midfield for RWC, as that solidity is more important in the coming weeks that game-breaking man beating skills (though these two aren't hugely short on those either).

Therefore until next year
I would be going for
9. Genia
10 Quade
11. Ioane
12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
13. Horne
14. JOC (James O'Connor) or Drew
15 Beale

21. Barnes
22. JOC (James O'Connor) or Drew
with both to get significant game time. That said, bloody tough on Pat Mcabe as he has worked like a dog in all his games and done what was required (kinda wish Robbie had started with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 12). BTW, my reason for championing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) over BB for 12 is his more physical game (ball running and lines), though theres merit for btoh sides of the argument

I doubt this will come to pass, as too much has been invested in Pat, so as long as there is some starting and bench permutation of the above players (with MCabe considered also) by the time (and if) we reach a semi, Ill probably be happy.