RWC - Wallabies v Ireland - 17th September 2011

[Inside Shoulder]

That argument is just too simplistic.

Under Jones the game plan (and there actually was one) called for a homogeny of player types with a few specialist but in general everyone had to defend and concede no points. It was very Leaguesque and the set piece largely ignored. Be in quadrant such and such at so and so time in this play etc.

Connolly took too many old heads from the Jones era and applied his own rigid inflexible game plan and did in fact concentrate on the set piece. Yet he as well selected poorly and picked players out of position and out of form. In the end the inflexibility of his plan was his major downfall and the team could not react and alter their approach when something wasn't working.

Deans now has done a few things I really like, as much as I make light of the term at least telling players to "play whats in front of them" means they can adapt and take advantage when opportunities crop up, such as counter attack. But that said this side doesn't have any real structures and doesn't in general build any pressure through hard work. So all they have is a throw it around and hope we make a break type game and defend really well. Hence they haven't let in many tries.

Your argument leads one to the inevitable conclusion that Australia doesn't produce any decent forwards and is incapable of forward play and that is just rubbish. Link, Eales, Giffen, McCall, Morgan, Poido, Wilson, Smith, Waugh, and the list goes on and on and on along with the periods on dominance I outlined prove that conclusion to be a lie. What none of the coaches you have named did was produce a complete Rugby game plan and instill that plan in the team while thoroughly preparing that side to play test match Rugby at its highest levels.

Their plans were different but the results were the same because in each case the very ground work they put in was flawed and each picked unbalanced packs to play their rigid (Jones & Connolly) game plan or runners (Deans) to play his no game plan.

One last thing why isn't anybody blaming Vickerman for the alleged poor scrummaging performance, wasn't he the messiah TH Lock? Wasn't Sharpe the reason for Marseille?

This is a very good analysis. I wold like to add 2 other considerations:

1. From an early age we as a nation think that best footballer should be the 5/8 - in junior rugby this may well be right because otherwise he will not get the ball. The problem is, and it was a problem for beale until he was shifted, these players with great skills cannot necessarily read and run a game. They may be great one on one but they cannot set up play regularly for the team - at best Cooper's passess etc. are one offs: they are not contributing to a structure in which other players make something of the opportunities. In my opinion the best comparison is with Dan Carter: if the pundits saw him play against Cooper at say U15 al we would hear was how good Cooper was.....Ella, Lynagh & Larkham certainly had flashes of individual brilliance but it was the way they set up their supports that proved their worth.
2. The second things is the ARU's reliance on schools and their lamentable indifference to club rugby at all levels but especially juniors.

I think the problems are philosophical and structural and i agree that the coach is an accessory after the fact.

 

[Bullrush]

OK....I'll probably get blasted for saying this and I've mentioned it before but.....

I've been playing gridiron and rugby here for the last 2 years since coming from NZ and they way you guys play and your mentality in the contact seems to be so much different. I don't know how different it is the further you go up the grades but I believe that the gap is still there in the Wallabies.

The rugby team my brother and I played for this year looked to us all year to bring the 'mongrel' and the physicality to the team. We'd laugh about it every week because how we play is probably about the norm for most of the guys we played with back home. Especially in the forwards. We look forward to pulling our boots on every Saturday and getting the opportunity to just smash someone. And to get a bit smashed around ourselves. A lot of boys here seem to need to psych themselves up for it.

Maybe it's the weather here. The grounds are great for running rugby all year round. I don't know but unless a huge mental effort is made to physically get confrontational eg. 1st half of the Brisbane game - the Wallabies pack seems to miss that intensity and brutal edge that other teams carry as an expectation.

 

[Lee Grant]

Gnostic - a lot of good stuff in that post just above. Enjoyed it.

One last thing why isn't anybody blaming Vickerman for the alleged poor scrummaging performance, wasn't he the messiah TH Lock?

You may not have noticed but Horwill has been the TH lock in the scrums when they have both been playing. I don't know that swapping would have made much difference in the scrum and otherwise he was no worse than the others in the grunt any more than Brad Thorn would have made a difference for the All Blacks in the first half in Brisbane. The Oz pack that played there didn't play on Saturday night; or so it seemed.

As for the scrums: I am too pained to watch the replay at the minute but it seemed to me that THP Alexander, who had progressed since he switched to THP halfway during the Super season, relapsed, and was hinging down again. A good scrummaging TH lock wouldn't have helped much there.

This would not have surprised Alexander bashers but the surprise to me is that his direct opponent was Cian Healey, hitherto the Irish version of Pek Cowan. Sure the scrum is an 8 man thing and yarda, yarda but Healey has never been a great scrummager though he has improved gradually throughout the year.

Kepu was the best Oz THP in Super rugby this year but it is probably too late to switch him and there is a bit of man love for Benny anyway. Also it would be a big ask for young Slipper to play THP as he was out for so long.

 

[mark_s]

Well played Ireland. Horrendously played Wallabies.

That was the least amount of actual rugby played that I have ever watched during an 80 minute game, and full credit to the Irish for dictating the tempo. As someone said at the pub, and probably by Thomo somewhere here - we got Munstered !!

Anyone watching the game in a pub with multiple screens would have noticed that the league semi final started over 1 hr after the wallabies, but finished only 20 mins after full time in Auckland. The rugby took an extra +40 mins for an 80 min game.

 

[François]

This is a very good analysis. I wold like to add 2 other considerations:

1. From an early age we as a nation think that best footballer should be the 5/8 - in junior rugby this may well be right because otherwise he will not get the ball. The problem is, and it was a problem for beale until he was shifted, these players with great skills cannot necessarily read and run a game. They may be great one on one but they cannot set up play regularly for the team - at best Cooper's passess etc. are one offs: they are not contributing to a structure in which other players make something of the opportunities. In my opinion the best comparison is with Dan Carter: if the pundits saw him play against Cooper at say U15 al we would hear was how good Cooper was.....Ella, Lynagh & Larkham certainly had flashes of individual brilliance but it was the way they set up their supports that proved their worth.
2. The second things is the ARU's reliance on schools and their lamentable indifference to club rugby at all levels but especially juniors.

I think the problems are philosophical and structural and i agree that the coach is an accessory after the fact.

I won't get in a argument regarding the school / club rugby issue, as I am not very familiar with the matter (in France it's 100% club rugby, schools don't even have rugby pitch to play on). Although I would say that they probably focus on schools because of the idea that the faster a player develop, the better he will be come senior rugby. Could be a misconception but it also allow you to notice and enlist some pretty rare talent (O'Connor, Pocock, Beale..)

But I have to disagree on your Cooper - 5/8s analysis. Had the wallabies won that game, as they would have 9 out of 10 times in parallel universes, you just wouldn't be saying that. I doubt Cooper won the S15 title with the Reds based on his one on one brilliance alone.. In fact he is the best in the world as setting up his runners around him.

Now, it is true that he has still a lot to learn in terms of managing tough games, like when his forwards don't have any momentum for instance. But I don't think the irish game was lost on his inability to do that alone. A lot of things went wrong for this upset to occur. It's like when a plane goes down, always multiple causes.

That defeat should not make you put in question the player development system for 5/8 in australian rugby. Trust me, you have no issues there. Developing Cooper as a 5/8 was the right option. Probably was the right option for Beale at the time, too. Even O'Connor played a lot at 10, and it didn't hurt him one bit... they were the quickest to mature into top ball players since Johnny Wilkinson.

Now of course Cooper has one or a few more step to climb before he becomes an all time great in the mould of Carter, but don't discuss his ability to be a 5/8 just because he happens to be one of world's best, both codes included, at beating players one on one. It's just bonus

 

[Dan54]

( I thought it was a great idea when he was appointed as he was without doubt the most successful coach at Super Level, nobody came close.)

Actually think this comment is wrong, Graham Henry has the best S14 coaching record percentage wise at least. Not that it has any relevance to this debate, just tjhought I'd throw it in.
I actually not sure exactly why the Wallabies like throwing in performances like the one on weekend, though I suspect we are not giving the Irish due credit for playing out of their skins, and playing almost the same as ABs did at Eden Park Bled game, they simply hit hard all the time, and even when Wallabies had the ball they were hit or driven behind the advantage line. If I was looking at Wallabies biggest weakness, I believe it is against teams that play a very physical game, remember Samoan test? To often you hear in interviews before tests the players and management talking about bringing physicallity to their game, it shouldn't have to be talked about ,it should be automatic that you are going to bring it to every test, I don't really recall other teams talking about it.
Just a thought anyway, am happy to have these observations rubbished.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I won't get in a argument regarding the school / club rugby issue, as I am not very familiar with the matter (in France it's 100% club rugby, schools don't even have rugby pitch to play on). Although I would say that they probably focus on schools because of the idea that the faster a player develop, the better he will be come senior rugby. Could be a misconception but it also allow you to notice and enlist some pretty rare talent (O'Connor, Pocock, Beale..)

But I have to disagree on your Cooper - 5/8s analysis. Had the wallabies won that game, as they would have 9 out of 10 times in parallel universes, you just wouldn't be saying that. I doubt Cooper won the S15 title with the Reds based on his one on one brilliance alone.. In fact he is the best in the world as setting up his runners around him.

Now, it is true that he has still a lot to learn in terms of managing tough games, like when his forwards don't have any momentum for instance. But I don't think the irish game was lost on his inability to do that alone. A lot of things went wrong for this upset to occur. It's like when a plane goes down, always multiple causes.

That defeat should not make you put in question the player development system for 5/8 in australian rugby. Trust me, you have no issues there. Developing Cooper as a 5/8 was the right option. Probably was the right option for Beale at the time, too. Even O'Connor played a lot at 10, and it didn't hurt him one bit... they were the quickest to mature into top ball players since Johnny Wilkinson.

Now of course Cooper has one or a few more step to climb before he becomes an all time great in the mould of Carter, but don't discuss his ability to be a 5/8 just because he happens to be one of world's best, both codes included, at beating players one on one. It's just bonus

I dont think anyone suggests that Cooper was 5/8 in the S15 winning rugby team because he controlled the game: he certainly influenced the final. if he could tackle he would be a better outside centre than 5/8 just as beale is far and away a better fullback than he ever was a 5/8.

As it happens I saw both play schoolboys: they were both league 5/8s then and Cooper still is.

 

[François]

I dont think anyone suggests that Cooper was 5/8 in the S15 winning rugby team because he controlled the game: he certainly influenced the final. if he could tackle he would be a better outside centre than 5/8 just as beale is far and away a better fullback than he ever was a 5/8.

As it happens I saw both play schoolboys: they were both league 5/8s then and Cooper still is.

Did you see O'Connor play too at the time ? Was it the same ?

 

[Top Bloke]

The only players who are genuinly better then their opposites was Darcy and BOD, and only SOB because lets face it, McCalman is not a test player. Barb was on the mark, drunk or not, he said what alot of us are thinking.

Fuck im still scathing, holding back on typing up a storm.

I'd have to add Paul O'Connor and the entire Irish front row to that list

 

[Skippy]

A lot of the Wallaby scrum problems against the Irish, aside from the front row issues was the fact that the 3 backrowers disengaged every scrum and stopped pushing and working as a 8. Wallabies basically had 5 on 8 in the scrum and the backrowers were not supporting the props etc. Of course, the front rowers themselves had problems but I lost count of how many times the backrower all stood up and just bound by the 'hand' and the scrum starting to shove backwards funnily enough....

 

[mark_s]

A lot of the Wallaby scrum problems against the Irish, aside from the front row issues was the fact that the 3 backrowers disengaged every scrum and stopped pushing and working as a 8. Wallabies basically had 5 on 8 in the scrum and the backrowers were not supporting the props etc. Of course, the front rowers themselves had problems but I lost count of how many times the backrower all stood up and just bound by the 'hand' and the scrum starting to shove backwards funnily enough....

And the irish took full advantage by keeping the ball in the scrum on their feed and for some reason Radike and Genia didn't focus on clearing the ball ASAP on our feed. The Irish won quite a few scrums through their second shoves.

 

[What2040]

Gnostic - a lot of good stuff in that post just above. Enjoyed it.



You may not have noticed but Horwill has been the TH lock in the scrums when they have both been playing. I don't know that swapping would have made much difference in the scrum and otherwise he was no worse than the others in the grunt any more than Brad Thorn would have made a difference for the All Blacks in the first half in Brisbane. The Oz pack that played there didn't play on Saturday night; or so it seemed.

As for the scrums: I am too pained to watch the replay at the minute but it seemed to me that THP Alexander, who had progressed since he switched to THP halfway during the Super season, relapsed, and was hinging down again. A good scrummaging TH lock wouldn't have helped much there.

This would not have surprised Alexander bashers but the surprise to me is that his direct opponent was Cian Healey, hitherto the Irish version of Pek Cowan. Sure the scrum is an 8 man thing and yarda, yarda but Healey has never been a great scrummager though he has improved gradually throughout the year.

Kepu was the best Oz THP in Super rugby this year but it is probably too late to switch him and there is a bit of man love for Benny anyway. Also it would be a big ask for young Slipper to play THP as he was out for so long.

Lee - your man love for Kepu should be over - Both Kepu and ben A. very very average around field and only ok at scrummaging. Congrats to Ireland. TPN a poor third behind Moore and dare i saaia it, Finger. The quote of Irish Coach that games are won by the forwards and by how much by the backs is so true. The whole 8 showed no passion, no mongrel, no enthusiasm. Missed Bam at the breakdown. The backs were equally as poor. Most posters seem to be as one - stupid chip kicks and low percentage passes are just dumb and show poor decision making in the heat of the moment. another justified criticism is the use or non-use of the bench at the 60 minute mark. Ref was crap as well.

Onwards towards USA - question will be does Deans persevere with team or make changes now. Barnes has to be in this team

 

[Waylon]

It was purely attitude

Wewatched the Aussies belt the kiwis to a pulp a few weeks ago. They have it in them.

They just didn't want to get dirty and took a backward step to the Irish.

I knew we were in trouble at the anthems. The Aussies were yawning. The Irish had fire and brimstone in their eyes. As soon as they knew te Aussies hadn't turned up mentally, they grew their belief system.

Attitude problem

 

[Bullrush]

They have it in them - no doubt. But it's not par for the course....they need a week of getting themselves up for it.

It's weird because when you watch the Reds v Tah games, it's there in spades.....

 

[Slash]

Oh god...

Barnes wouldn't have offered more penetration...

McCabe at least put on some dominant hits, and his counter rucking from one of his tackles led to a turnover...

Fainga'a will certainly lose his spot, but McCabe will be safe...

I think they need Barnes at 12, gotta have a cool head who'll play the basics outside QC (Quade Cooper). And I also think Horne might be a chance at 13 for our next big match. He's quick as and will provide the necessary penetration and as we all know, he is a great defender.

 

[waratahjesus]

im excited about barnes coming back in, it was working so well towards the end of last year.

that said the problem is and always has been with the forward pack. against england last year, against scotland etc etc, it always comes down the the forward pack turning up mentally, the ability is there and there is no need for mass changes, its about there brains and unfortunately its as if every few games they need to be smashed to remember it.

 

[Waylon]

..........and for the record. McCabe isn't a good 12. The tuck under the arm crash ball was easy meat for the Irish. He's a one trick pony

 

[antipodean]

Lee - your man love for Kepu should be over - Both Kepu and ben A. very very average around field and only ok at scrummaging. Congrats to Ireland. TPN a poor third behind Moore and dare i saaia it, Finger.

I noticed that Kepu's opposite was binding on his arm and if Kepu managed to promote his side of the scrum without boring in, Mike Ross would drop his bind and try to push Kepu away. Questions abound when it comes to Ben Alexander, because Cian Healy has been owned badly as a prop, so what was his problem?

 

[Country Kid]

Game momemtum

Watched a replay from 4-6am Sunday morning my first view of the game.

Some crucial 'turning points' in the first half.

The early scrum penalty in front of the posts - we took the three points. But we could have taken the scrum because momentum was with us. The Irish wanted to get out out that situation with three points rather than five or seven - so we obliged them rather than play the game on our terms. At that point our scrum was on top with TPN still fresh - it was a chance to assert dominance, maintain territory/possesion pressure and maybe score.

Around the 30th minute JOC (James O'Connor) had his 4th shot at goal and missed - this came after some great attack by Aust. Taking the goal kick gave the Irish a two-minute breather, just what they wanted at that point. Better to have quickly kicked for touch and set the line out to maintain territory and possession pressure on a team that at that point was vulnerable - very vulnerable. Again we played that phase of the game on their terms rather than our terms - and they gained heart from that.

Failure to read the momentum points in the game (coaches and players) meant opportunities to sap some spirit from the Irish were passed up.

Full credit to the Irish for their effort and defence - but their defence effort grew as the game wore on largely because we failed to capitalise on the periods when we had momemtum.

 

[Nusadan]

CK, welcome to the forum, and may you keep on posting here...

I understand what you are getting at, but after the Samoa debacle, the Wallabies were a bit gun shy, especially given the conditions, so it is understandable that they chose to go for penalty goals instead of going for a scrum or a kick for touch...

They did respect the opposition this time around, but alas it wasn't enough.