Rugby World Cup 2019
- Thread starter waiopehu oldboy
- Start date
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Oh geez Bobby, if you just said at beginning of your post you got it in for kiwis we wouldn't have bothered replying , as you don't really care about what actually happens, just so long as you can see the world through your little keyhole you will be alright mate.
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Bobby Sands
Guest
I love kiwis, but I think bringing up on an Australian rugby forum the idea that PIs being poached by large nations is unjust is the charcoaling of the kettle.
Rugby’s slush fund, the pacific islands: https://www.newframe.com/pacific-islands-rugbys-stepchild/
Also if you actually read this particular thread and forum you would realise that I have been one of the very few actually concerned that the islands are falling behind Georgia, Uruguay, Japan and other developing nations.
Dan Leo is doing some very good work in the space.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10105486
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
Do you mind expanding a bit on this? I don't know much about the situation, but doesn't Australia/NZ have the biggest population of Samoans and Fijians outside of Apia and Suva respectively?
I know that there are more Samoans living in Australia & NZ combined then there are actually living in Samoa.
Wouldn't it follow that our teams are made up of lots of players with polynesian heritage?
I think it's just Sevu Reece and Isi Naisarani that actually spent a significant time period in the Fijian rugby system before emigrating.
EDIT: sorry BS, didn't see that most recent link you posted.
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Bobby Sands
Guest
These are all articles about the state of scholarships in New Zealand high schools. Of course once these players come to New Zealand these players are considered Kiwis, at least in the eyes of New Zealand fans. Australia does this too, but obviously not to the same degree. This is why I said the kettle is being charcoaled.
It even been reported that in New Zealand that existing scholarships are routinely usurped by even bigger scholarships from other schools. This has lead to headmasters threatening to boycott the high school competitions in the biggest schoolboy competitions as they have essentially become arms races.
"Ten Auckland principals have agreed to boycott major private school Saint Kentigern College in the city's premier rugby competition due to its approach to recruiting players to its first XV."
Another example of directly recruiting kids from the Islands;
"(Sevu) Reece moved to New Zealand in 2014 on a scholarship to Hamilton Boys' High School and immediately starred in both sevens and 15s, representing New Zealand Secondary Schools in the latter..there's a three year stand-down period from the time he finishes school before New Zealand Rugby grant him eligible (sic) to wear black."
Theres too much to summarise to be honest.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...urch-roofer-in-tonga-team-for-all-blacks-test
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11255027
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=3582760
https://rugby365.com/countries/new-zealand/new-zealands-alarming-schoolboy-rugby-state
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...-pacific-island-players-but-at-what-cost.html
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...-rugby-playernapping-is-almost-out-of-control
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Bobby Sands
Guest
https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-tim...-children-to-play-rugby-questionable-practice
An exceptional article, that summarised the issues best.
An exceptional article, that summarised the issues best.
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Bobby Sands
Guest
Read the evidence, accept how it has we have got to this place mate.
Or bury your head in the sand?
Doesn't phase me.
Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
the NZ schools thing is shady as hell. dont know about Aus schools but, as one of the articles says, Japan's pipeline is now established too
AB's historically pretty shady with this. Sevu Reece is an out and out poach and shouldnt be there. But NZ doesnt seem have many like that of late. Eng have way more. Riki Flutey, ffs wft was that about. Ire dodgy too and, dare I say it, and I dont know the players recent backgrounds, but Wobs looking very brotown of late
AB's historically pretty shady with this. Sevu Reece is an out and out poach and shouldnt be there. But NZ doesnt seem have many like that of late. Eng have way more. Riki Flutey, ffs wft was that about. Ire dodgy too and, dare I say it, and I dont know the players recent backgrounds, but Wobs looking very brotown of late
Up the Guts
Steve Williams (59)
^^^
League sometimes does our dirty work. NRL attracts them to Australia and then it's easy to poach them for Gold, Koroibete would be an example. Reports that Mako Sivo is going to play for Aus 7s is another. Of course, there are many counterexamples of those of PI descent who were born here but might be "mistaken" by over-zealous NH armchair critics, the illustrious I.Folau springs to mind.
League sometimes does our dirty work. NRL attracts them to Australia and then it's easy to poach them for Gold, Koroibete would be an example. Reports that Mako Sivo is going to play for Aus 7s is another. Of course, there are many counterexamples of those of PI descent who were born here but might be "mistaken" by over-zealous NH armchair critics, the illustrious I.Folau springs to mind.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
I stick with exactly what I say and know BS, as pointed out the biggest Samoan population in a city is Auckland, and yes they do get scholarships to schools on their rugby ability, but you want to know something, so do a hell of a lot of Kiwi boys whether they have Island heritage or not!! I know as I have a nephew who got a scholarship to a college, and the actual college you point to St Kentigerns actually get almost all scholarship boys from other Auckland schools, hence the blow up in Auckland!! It happens right here in Australia, do you think Quade Cooper's parents paid for him to go to Churchie's? I not sure if you realise just how much scholarships play in the education system for almost all sports! I know a kid from Levin a little town in NZ going to a college in America on a swimming scholarship.
Or perhaps you think the kids from the Islands are not allowed the same opportunities! Mate I am old enough to remember when Islanders weren't allowed to stay in NZ, and how hard they fought to get the opportunity to be able to, so you barking well and truly up the wrong tree!!
Or perhaps you think the kids from the Islands are not allowed the same opportunities! Mate I am old enough to remember when Islanders weren't allowed to stay in NZ, and how hard they fought to get the opportunity to be able to, so you barking well and truly up the wrong tree!!
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Yep UTG and it seems an awful lot of people look at the colour of the players skin and assume he a poach. I personally be happy if players have to all play for their country of birth (and perhaps have to play there), but isn't the likes of Genia a poach too?
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Bobby Sands
Guest
Australia do, do this - its just to a much smaller degree. Again, I am not saying we are innocent here.
The school I went to in Brisbane is one of the few up here that has a fund (from an bequeathed oldboy) that has been stipulated to support Samoan schools age kids (2 at the school at any time). However none of these kids have gone onto professional careers (that I know of) and none of them are tied to visa. Once they finish school, they go back to Samoa, and from what I understand usually hold important positions in the community based on their educations and experiences abroad. The Samoan that do stay are required to go through the normal immigration process.
Tongan Thor was recruited from Tonga to Sacred Heart High School when he was 15. Because he held a Tongan passport he was not technically eligible to be selected for NZ schools.
"Tupou was given a deadline to sign a loyalty agreement to be eligible for the New Zealand Schoolboys team. However, he declined the offer."
Tupou then moved to Australian and begun the immigration process.
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Bobby Sands
Guest
I was there when he came to the school you mention.
If you want to know the details for that, and yes it was 100% a scholarship for an Australian citizen that had immigrated from New Zealand as a child.
He was part of the ARU High Performance squad, they told him he needed to join a GPS school or otherwise risk falling behind. Churchie was the closest school to Springwood where he grew up, and he is still very good friends with many and highly supportive of the school to this day.
New Zealand has a high school system most closely aligned to US college systems. Its a genuine arm race. Believe me I realise "how much scholarships play in the education system."
All I am saying, is that for a country that has pillaged and plundered PI talent more than any out country in the world - do not then puff your chest out about how egalitarian New Zealand rugby is for bringing up issues of inequality in global rugby. Its a genuine self licking ice-cream situation.
Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
I had no idea when I googled "lifting the lid GIF" what a treasure trove it would lead to.
Thank you Daniel, thank you!
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
How did he grow up in Springwood? He was an Australian resident not citizen when he went to Churchies , and think he still was when playing for the Reds, well in early days. He went to college here, grew up and schooled in Tokoroa, and he played perhaps 1-2 years of rugby in Aus before he was given scholarship. he was playing at my rugby club !! So not sure where you gathered your details from , but think you may want to check them! look I not saying Churchies were wrong or system, just seems that you need to realise how often scholarships happen. You do realise that Aus have 12 players at WC born outside of Aus, I don't think they are poaches, just in main part kids that ended up here from Islands or wherever to get(or families) a better life!
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
I'm a giver mate!! And knew you would be happy to know Wallabies are second only to Japan with overseas born players!
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Bobby Sands
Guest
Mate, slow down.
Quade came to Australia with his family on his mothers own accord when he was about 12 I think - you understand this yes?
He was good at rugby, and got a scholarship to the nearest big school when he was 17. He played his rugby at South Magpies and Logan right through this period - not Tokorua as you suggest.
Quade being born in NZ, immigrating to Australia, becoming good at rugby and then eventually getting a scholarship to Churchie and then a contract to the Reds are all seperate events.
You understand this yes?
Don't can't aspersions when you know literally nothing about this particular case, it's weird, have a cold shower.
Dismal Pillock
Michael Lynagh (62)
My understanding is that Quade Cooper is still a New Zealand citizen. Some other current Wallabies are as well I believe. This is more a nuance of the immigration system more than anything else. There is no need to change citizenship and indeed it is rarely straight forward because they don't need to.
The Cooper nationality came up when there was talk of him potentially going to the Rio Olympics because Olympics does require citizenship. Rugby union and most other sports don't consider citizenship at all in eligibility because it is the most variable in terms of rules from country to country so it would be an inconsistent approach.
On the whole PI player issue, it is incredibly complicated. It's a two way street and players want opportunities. There is the argument that there is exploitation recruiting a kid from the Pacific Islands on a scholarship during high school and then he later ends up representing his adopted country at test level. On the flipside that player has gained an education and a professional sports opportunity that might have never existed otherwise.
The issue World Rugby (and the aggrieved PIs) can't reconcile is that such a large percentage of professional players are of PI heritage but the fact that they can earn good professional incomes provides no benefit to their home unions (and this is unlikely to change).
The issue that is impossible to fix is that Samoa and Tonga in particular are tiny, impoverished countries with no infrastructure and there is no opportunity for players there. Players need to go elsewhere for a career and whilst they can come back and play at RWCs, that does little to improve the lot of those unions.
The Cooper nationality came up when there was talk of him potentially going to the Rio Olympics because Olympics does require citizenship. Rugby union and most other sports don't consider citizenship at all in eligibility because it is the most variable in terms of rules from country to country so it would be an inconsistent approach.
On the whole PI player issue, it is incredibly complicated. It's a two way street and players want opportunities. There is the argument that there is exploitation recruiting a kid from the Pacific Islands on a scholarship during high school and then he later ends up representing his adopted country at test level. On the flipside that player has gained an education and a professional sports opportunity that might have never existed otherwise.
The issue World Rugby (and the aggrieved PIs) can't reconcile is that such a large percentage of professional players are of PI heritage but the fact that they can earn good professional incomes provides no benefit to their home unions (and this is unlikely to change).
The issue that is impossible to fix is that Samoa and Tonga in particular are tiny, impoverished countries with no infrastructure and there is no opportunity for players there. Players need to go elsewhere for a career and whilst they can come back and play at RWCs, that does little to improve the lot of those unions.