Rugby Championship 2012: Our Backline

[Paradox]

I'm not sure what your trying to say Qwerty. You said do we only need attack to beat ABs which I took to mean that you felt bringing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 13 and JOC (James O'Connor) to wing would make the Ws defensively poorer?

 

[qwerty51]

I'm not sure what your trying to say Qwerty. You said do we only need attack to beat ABs which I took to mean that you felt bringing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 13 and JOC (James O'Connor) to wing would make the Ws defensively poorer?

Yes, I do believe AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 with JOC (James O'Connor) or Barnes at 12 would make us poorer defensively, I think there's evidence of this in 2010 when we were conceding plenty of points against the Saffers and ABs and then England on the EOYT. They would run their big backrowers at our backline and we were struggling to shut them down early and make dominant tackles in the midfield. McCabe and Horne/Fainga'a proved their worth in 2011 with a much more brittle defence where we won several games on the back off defence, we also had the best defence at the WC. I think Robbie acknowledged the shortcomings of the defence in 2010 and fixed this up in 2011 with the direct centres.

 

[Paradox]

I would play JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is a better defender than Horne in my opinion and hasn't let us down at 13 in defense.

Most Missed Tackles
1. Nick Phipps (Rebels) 36
2. Beauden Barrett (Hurricanes) 33
3. Willem Alberts (Sharks) 31
4. Rob Horne (Waratahs) 30

 

[qwerty51]

How many has he missed since suspension? Everyone is aware he started the season poorly for whatever reason. He hasn't defended poorly at test level yet.

 

[Paradox]

I'm not sure, but his mistackle count has been going up. He also offers very little in attack. 9 tackle busts and 3 line breaks.

Just for comparison, Andrew Smith has 27 tackles busts, 6 line breaks and Smith isn't an attacking maestro. Joe Tomane has 42 tackle busts. I'm not suggesting either play at W's at 13 but just put them up for comparison.

 

[Scotty]

So we only allowed to attack to beat the ABs? How's that been going for us..

Who said that and where?

 

[TOCC]

So we only allowed to attack to beat the ABs? How's that been going for us..

No, thats quite obviously not what i am saying..
Im purely saying that a defensive orientated game is not going to beat the All Blacks, the Wallabies need to score more tries then they have been if we are going to beat the All Blacks.
I believe based on past wallabies performances, we don't have a good enough kicker or a forward pack to stake our strategy on a defensively orientated game.

Yes, I do believe AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 with JOC (James O'Connor) or Barnes at 12 would make us poorer defensively, I think there's evidence of this in 2010 when we were conceding plenty of points against the Saffers and ABs and then England on the EOYT. They would run their big backrowers at our backline and we were struggling to shut them down early and make dominant tackles in the midfield. McCabe and Horne/Fainga'a proved their worth in 2011 with a much more brittle defence where we won several games on the back off defence, we also had the best defence at the WC. I think Robbie acknowledged the shortcomings of the defence in 2010 and fixed this up in 2011 with the direct centres.

Ummmm... AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) started in the centres 3 out of the 4 tri-nations game in 2011... Barnes only started in the centres once in the 2010 tri-nations, Horne started 2 times.

 

[fatprop]

I always understood it was best practice to get your defence right and then start working on your attack.

I would love to see some stats on where tries and attack is coming from these days. My guess is bugger all from the centres, the up and in or rush defenses are not giving the centres the space.

The inside ball or crash ball to set up the next play seems to be most prevalent.

 

[Cutter]

I always understood it was best practice to get your defence right and then start working on your attack.

A rowing coach spent three months of pre-season coaching us and our speed improved enormously. Then he said: "Right, now I've taught you not to slow yourselves down, I can teach you how to go fast." I agree with fatprop, defence should come first followed by attack.

 

[Braveheart81]

I always understood it was best practice to get your defence right and then start working on your attack.

I would love to see some stats on where tries and attack is coming from these days. My guess is bugger all from the centres, the up and in or rush defenses are not giving the centres the space.

The inside ball or crash ball to set up the next play seems to be most prevalent.

Watching the ABs play, offloads are a major contributor to creating line breaks. The Wallabies created one or two against Wales last Saturday as well.

One thing the ABs do far better than us is once they make the initial break they hold the ball and then continue to make easy metres up the field on every phase with the defence on the back foot. The constant application of pressure ends up with a try. Our problem is that once we make that first break we try and score on that phase and too often that means we throw a low percentage pass or chip kick.

 

[fatprop]

I would play JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is a better defender than Horne in my opinion and hasn't let us down at 13 in defense.

Most Missed Tackles
1. Nick Phipps (Rebels) 36
2. Beauden Barrett (Hurricanes) 33
3. Willem Alberts (Sharks) 31
4. Rob Horne (Waratahs) 30

Those stats are a bit misleading, Horne's defense over the last 8 weeks has been excellent, it was the pants early in the season due to bad defensive reads, but as he has actually got some consistent game time, his defense has been excellent (he didn't miss a tackle in the tests)

 

[Bullrush]

The thing about defence is that it's not just about stats and how many tackles are made.

One big difference I see in the ABs compared to the Wallabies is that when the ABs make more dominant tackles and tackles where the ball-carrier goes straight to the deck. This cuts down the availability to off-load and keep the momentum going forward.

Perhaps this is actually more about attack but AB players like Kaino (in the last few years) SBW, Nonu, Read, Conrad Smith etc keep fighting in the tackle and stay on their feet. This draws at least another defender in and gives the players backing up opportunities to run off them and take the off-load in space.

The Wallabies need to do both - put opposition players to deck quickly and when attacking, stay on their feet longer and keep the legs pumping.

These are more observations from last year as I didn't get to watch the Wales Tests as closely as I wanted to. They were after AB Tests. Damn alcohol.

 

[qwerty51]

McCabe and Horne are dominant tacklers, that's what they're there for. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor) generally are not.

 

[Viking]

I must admit I have been impressed by the defense of our current centre pairing. Horne has defended well even though he started the super xv quite messy in defense. Our current back-line is looking defensively solid, the problem lies in attack. Barnes while showing good form, is still very predictable and I can't see him causing any trouble to the ABs or SAs defense. Horne also seems to be a poor decision maker in attack. A change at 10 is also needed, Beale, JOC (James O'Connor), or Cooper. Whether or not we shift Barnes to 12 is also a tough question that needs to be answered (but it should not be at the expense of McCabe, who needs and deserves to start in the backline).

Key factors I will be closely looking at in the remaing super XV games:

1. Coopers defense
2. JOC (James O'Connor)'s distribution at 10 and his attitude towards setting up his outside men (over his sometimes selfish play)
3. Barnes ability to control a game.

Not sure that Deans will actually take any of this into consideration. But one can only hope.

 

[Swat]

Am I the only one who thinks the best combo would be Barnes 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12 and not the other way around (although my ideal combo would be Lealiifano 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12)???

 

[Braveheart81]

Am I the only one who thinks the best combo would be Barnes 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12 and not the other way around (although my ideal combo would be Lealiifano 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12)???

I agree with this.

O'Connor is a better 12 on the basis that he is better running with ball in hand rather creating through his passing game. Very similar to Giteau in that regard.

 

[Viking]

Am I the only one who thinks the best combo would be Barnes 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12 and not the other way around (although my ideal combo would be Lealiifano 10, JOC (James O'Connor) 12)???

I support that combo. If Barnes is at 10, then i think its necessay for JOC (James O'Connor) to be at 12 to add that spark and distribution in the back-line. However Coopers long pass and distribution skills always keeps me coming back to him and I don't support a combo of Cooper/JOC (James O'Connor), with JOC (James O'Connor) being a lightweight and Cooper being a defensive liability.

I guess I dont believe in sticking the "best" skilled player at 10/12 (which would probably be Cooper/JOC (James O'Connor)), I believe in balance.

Barnes/JOC (James O'Connor) has a nice balance to it.
Cooper/JOC (James O'Connor) - defensively poor, possibly too much "over-playing" in attack.
Barnes/McCabe - to predictable/ one dimensional on attack
Lealifano/JOC (James O'Connor) - very interesting but I doubt it will ever happen - actually any centre with Lealifano at flyhalf seems to work.
Cooper/McCabe - nicely balanced

 

[Swat]

Barnes/JOC (James O'Connor) has a nice balance to it.
Cooper/JOC (James O'Connor) - defensively poor, possibly too much "over-playing" in attack.
Barnes/McCabe - to predictable/ one dimensional on attack
Lealifano/JOC (James O'Connor) - very interesting but I doubt it will ever happen - actually any centre with Lealifano at flyhalf seems to work.
Cooper/McCabe - nicely balanced

You read my mind. Although I'm not so sure that Cooper/McCabe is that nicely balanced, because it seems to hinge completely on Cooper having brilliant attack. On the nights that Cooper is off his game the whole backline is fucked, at least with Barnes/JOC (James O'Connor) if one isn't bang on then it's not a complete disaster.

 

[Viking]

You read my mind. Although I'm not so sure that Cooper/McCabe is that nicely balanced, because it seems to hinge completely on Cooper having brilliant attack. On the nights that Cooper is off his game the whole backline is fucked, at least with Barnes/JOC (James O'Connor) if one isn't bang on then it's not a complete disaster.

Good point. Although JOC (James O'Connor) will no doubt be on the wing, in the roaming role, as well as Beale coming up to the line from fullback which would offer a lot of support to Cooper in his "off games'. But you are probably still right, JOC (James O'Connor)/Barnes is much more of a solid option in that regard. Put my vote down for them this Rugby Championship.

 

[Swat]

Good point. Although JOC (James O'Connor) will no doubt be on the wing, in the roaming role, as well as Beale coming up to the line from fullback which would offer a lot of support to Cooper in his "off games'. But you are probably still right, JOC (James O'Connor)/Barnes is much more of a solid option in that regard. Put my vote down for them this Rugby Championship.

Ahh Seb, if only we had a say in it.... Also, anyone know a good hypnotist and where Robbie Deans lives?