Rugby Championship 2012: Our Backline

[Swat]

Simmer down qwerty, all we want is a back line with players that can defend and attack well. It's about individual balance along the backline, rather than a balanced backline with one attacking freak who tackles like a marshmallow and a 12 and 13 that defend like beasts but cant put a winger in space or step.

 

[qwerty51]

The thing is, in 2010 we were scoring a shitload of points but we were also conceding them and we lost quite a few games on defence. Now we're defensively better and yes the attack has struggled but we just won 3 games. What's the matter with being defensive orientated? In test rugby you generally hear that defence is more important and will win you games and that's pretty evident. I think we need to see how the backline performs with the "stars" back before we start even think about changing the centres who imo were the cornerstones of the the success in shutting down a big, rampant Welsh backline that barely fired a shot.

 

[Braveheart81]

A lot of the backlines people are speculating over involve 3 or 4 changes from the team that played on Saturday.

I think the odds of that happening are so low. We've just won 3 tests. Deans will be trying to stick with much the same team again. I think JOC (James O'Connor) is the only realistic chance to force his way into the starting lineup.

 

[Swat]

A lot of the backlines people are speculating over involve 3 or 4 changes from the team that played on Saturday.

Fair play then to you and qwerty, I'm not a fan of mass changes either. All I'd like to see is JOC (James O'Connor) in for McCabe. Should make that clear, JOC (James O'Connor) in at 12.

 

[TOCC]

The thing is, in 2010 we were scoring a shitload of points but we were also conceding them and we lost quite a few games on defence. Now we're defensively better and yes the attack has struggled but we just won 3 games. What's the matter with being defensive orientated? In test rugby you generally hear that defence is more important and will win you games and that's pretty evident. I think we need to see how the backline performs with the "stars" back before we start even think about changing the centres who imo were the cornerstones of the the success in shutting down a big, rampant Welsh backline that barely fired a shot.

We struggled to score tries against Wales and Scotland.... It's not going to get any easier against the All Blacks and Springboks..

 

[qwerty51]

We struggled to score tries against Wales and Scotland.. It's not going to get any easier against the All Blacks and Springboks..

First of all, forget the Scotland game, different circumstances, just like the Samoa game it doesn't mean much to the rest of the season.

Not enough credit has gone to the Welsh defence, they have a far superior defence to the English or Irish.

We only scored two less than the Boks, they managed 2-0 whilst we got 3-0.

Also I'm going to sound like a Saffer or a Pom but scoring tries isn't the definitive indicator of a good attack. We put the Welsh under plenty of pressure in their 22 and they continued to infringe whether it was offside or ruck infringements. The state of the game generally called for taking the shot at goal and that's what won us the games. If we played a side that was more disciplined I'm sure we would've scored more tries.

This wasn't a tournament competition there was no need to get bonus points.

 

[tigerland12]

Does anyone else think that it is great that we can provide so many combinations? Great depth in the backs.

If everyone was full fit and inform I'd have

9-Genia
10- Cooper
11- Ioane
12- Barnes
13- Ashley-Cooper
14- O'Connor
15- Beale

20- White
21- McCabe
22- Mitchell

Or JOC (James O'Connor) at 12, Mitchell on the wing, Barnes bench. That backline has way more attacking flair and all can defend (bar cooper, but his attacking brilliance is too good to ignore).

 

[barbarian]

Speaking of defence, thought I'd do some quick sums to see how teams fared overall defensively.

The following is their tackle percentage taken from SMH stats (which aren't the best but still should be enough of a rough guide to see how teams went).

In order from best to worst:

NZ - 89%
Aus - 83%
Wales - 80%
Ireland - 79%
SA - 77%
England - 73%

Obviously there are situational factors involved in each of those figures, but I think we come away from it looking pretty good. 83% isn't particularly brilliant but it is certainly a good place to start from coming into TRC.
.

 

[Athilnaur]

nice reminder that the ABs are about defence as much as offence, 89% is more than almost all centres averaged in the super rugby last year.

Ath.

 

[Groucho]

A lot of the backlines people are speculating over involve 3 or 4 changes from the team that played on Saturday.

I think the odds of that happening are so low. We've just won 3 tests. Deans will be trying to stick with much the same team again. I think JOC (James O'Connor) is the only realistic chance to force his way into the starting lineup.

That's generally true, but not when lineups are affected by injury.

Returning first choice players are generally moved back in when they become available, otherwise the negative consequences of injury woes would become entrenched over time, with a queue of first team players waiting for a slot to become vacant in a winning side, until the side eventually starts to lose because the best players aren't in it, and wholesale changes are made.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm betting that very few changes are made.

If Deans made wholesale changes to his backline and we got belted by NZ, he'd probably cop the worst criticism of his coaching tenure.

If he reinstated Cooper at 10 after Barnes has been MOTM in two of the three Wales tests and he was anything short of incredible, Deans would cop a roasting.

If JOC (James O'Connor) came back onto the wing, he might look at AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 instead of Horne but I'd also be betting that combination remains.

I think Tapuai doesn't have a hope in hell of getting selected in the midfield if McCabe and Horne stay healthy.

 

[qwerty51]

I agree, the only change I can see is JOC (James O'Connor) straight swap for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 14.

Cooper and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the bench. I think only until Mitchell is ready will he bring JOC (James O'Connor) closer to the action if that is his plan.

 

[TOCC]

First of all, forget the Scotland game, different circumstances, just like the Samoa game it doesn't mean much to the rest of the season.

Not enough credit has gone to the Welsh defence, they have a far superior defence to the English or Irish.

We only scored two less than the Boks, they managed 2-0 whilst we got 3-0.

Also I'm going to sound like a Saffer or a Pom but scoring tries isn't the definitive indicator of a good attack. We put the Welsh under plenty of pressure in their 22 and they continued to infringe whether it was offside or ruck infringements. The state of the game generally called for taking the shot at goal and that's what won us the games. If we played a side that was more disciplined I'm sure we would've scored more tries.

This wasn't a tournament competition there was no need to get bonus points.

Yes i understand all this, but i still believe Australia need to become better at scoring tries if they are going to beat the All Blacks and Springboks.. Look at Barbarians statistics, the All Blacks have a tackle completion rate of 89% as opposed to Wales 80%, obviously there are some variables in all that, but its indicative that the All Blacks are defensively a better team then Wales.

The only time that the Wallabies have beaten the All Blacks in recent years is quite simply when we have scored more tries, which on average has been around 3. The All Blacks with Carter have a better kicker so they will always close out the tight games, Australia can't compete purely through defence against the All Blacks.

 

[TOCC]

I should also clarify further that i am not against players who are solid in defence, i just don't believe that Australia has the forwards and kicker to play a defensive orientated game...

You obviously need to find a balance of both defence and attack, given the resources at disposal for Australia, i tend to think that equilibrium should be weighted slightly more towards attack.

 

[Scotty]

When we beat the abs it is not generally by playing a field position, kick orientated tactic. We shut down their counter attacking options, keep the ball in hand and run attacking plays off set pieces.

I agree with tocc that we need better attack to beat the Abs, but maybe not the boks.

 

[Paradox]

I can see JOC (James O'Connor) to wing and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) replacing Horne at 13.

 

[qwerty51]

So we only allowed to attack to beat the ABs? How's that been going for us..

 

[TSR]

I'm betting that very few changes are made.

If Deans made wholesale changes to his backline and we got belted by NZ, he'd probably cop the worst criticism of his coaching tenure.

If he reinstated Cooper at 10 after Barnes has been MOTM in two of the three Wales tests and he was anything short of incredible, Deans would cop a roasting.

You may be right about very few changes, and there is plenty to be said for some stability in selections, but it seems to me if we lose to New Zealand Deans will get blasted anyway, no matter which selection policy he employs. Not saying he doesn't deserve a lot of it, but every coach is an idiot when they lose.

For mine, there is any number of possible combinations simply because we have a swag of players who all bring pros & cons to our midfield. For the hell of it, I'll put up a backline but, in all honesty even I am not 100% convinced it is the best way to go.

One big area of grey for me is does Deans need to inject some attacking spark or go for stability. I have choosen spark (with a few significant disclaimers), but I wouldn't be suprised or disappointed if Deans goes for consistency.

9. Genia -
10. Cooper - Yes, shit at the World Cup, but so were some of our selections, our injury toll, tactics and at least half of the other players as well. I would pick him on the proviso that a) he displays his form of 2011 Super Rugby over the next 3 weeks & b) Deans is confident he can defend at 10. Last year I advocated using the Reds style of shuffling him back in defence. It didn't work, so if he can't defend at 10 than he doesn't start IMO. I recognise those are two big ifs, so my backline might be shot before I start
11. Ioane
12. Barnes - deserves to be rewarded for his test form; IMO is a better 12 anyway; gives us a better balance in the centres than the current pair
13. McCabe - I don't dislike Horne or Faianga, but IMO McCabe is comfortably superior to both of them and is also the one showing the most ability to expand his game. Not sure it is a good idea to move him when he is establishing himself well at 12, but I think he could be even better at 13 and if he is going to change it has to happen sometime
14. O'Conner - I have no problem with O'Conner being put up as a midfield option - I remember him setting up plenty of play for his outside backs playing 10 at the Force. However, in the World Cup he & Pocock were the only two who could have any credible claim to being in the World XV team, and he was playing on the wing then
15 Beale - wish he would stop chip kicking so much, but is still a clear choice for mine

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Doubt AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) comes off. Deans knows his worth. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 13 and Horne rightfully dropped

 

[Paradox]

So we only allowed to attack to beat the ABs? How's that been going for us..

Are you implying Horne is better defensively than AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)?