Rugby Championship 2012: Our Backline

[maxdacat]

Key factors I will be closely looking at in the remaing super XV games:

1. Coopers defense

Yet to be convinced by him in that department. Some interesting thoughts on that here:

Cut through that and there is a simple rugby case to be made that if Cooper wants to play at five-eighth - and leave his mark there - he has to defend at five-eighth.
Rewind the clock back one week for a specific example. In the 50th minute of the All Blacks v Ireland riot in Hamilton, the visitors botched an attacking lineout. In a flash, the ball was in the hands of youngster Beauden Barrett, who had been defending in the No.10 channel. He found his outside-centre, Conrad Smith, with a lovely, flat ball and seconds later Hosea Gear completed the counter-attack by crashing over in the corner.
Barrett, still a colt, has had his defensive issues this year and the learning curve has been steep. But his distribution skills and vision from precious turnover ball are no good to anyone if he is standing at No.15. A determination has been made - as it was with Aaron Cruden - that he must sink or swim.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/curly-questions-over-quades-test-future-20120628-2159g.html#ixzz1z9MjC1PK

I hadn't thought defending at 15 to be an issue until reading this. I s'pose it makes sense that it then becomes harder to capitalise on turnovers.

 

[Viking]

Well that all depends on who is defending the 10 channel. If it were Beale then we dont lose much at all. The main issue is it just over-complicates things (Eg shifting the entire backline, then we lose Beale's counter-attackering from fullback etc). I think over the past few seasons, especially shown by watching the ABs style of play, Rugby is about doing the simple things right. Simplify the backline, where there roles are clearly defined, and it makes it much easier on everyone.

 

[maxdacat]

Rugby is about doing the simple things right. Simplify the backline, where there roles are clearly defined, and it makes it much easier on everyone.

True dat

 

[Paradox]

Those stats are a bit misleading, Horne's defense over the last 8 weeks has been excellent, it was the pants early in the season due to bad defensive reads, but as he has actually got some consistent game time, his defense has been excellent (he didn't miss a tackle in the tests)

Unfortunately those stats are all I can go by. His attack is not great regardless of early season form issues or not. His defense for Oz has been good in his games this year but we weren't really tested by Wales out wide.

 

[qwerty51]

He has 2 tries in his last 3 Wallabies games and 4 tries in his last 5 Super rugby games. Pretty good strike rate.

 

[Braveheart81]

He has 2 tries in his last 3 Wallabies games and 4 tries in his last 5 Super rugby games.

In the first of those tries he was accused of some sort of anti Brumbies conspiracy with Barnes and in the second people have been calling for him to be dropped.

 

[Bullrush]

In the first of those tries he was accused of some sort of anti Brumbies conspiracy with Barnes and in the second people have been calling for him to be dropped.

To be fair, if I ever want to show my son how NOT to score tries, that 2nd try will be first on my list I think....

 

[barbarian]

And I dispute the notion the Welsh never tested us out wide.

North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny had plenty of opportunities, not to mention Davies, Beck and Hook. They didn't succeed because we effectively shut down their space and time on almost every occassion through good decisions made by our outside men.

 

[qwerty51]

Exactly, I remember Horne running and jamming in on Davies when he had 3 or so men outside him to 1 defender. It was after that Phillips break in the 2nd test, if he didn't wrap the ball up there it was a certain try.

 

[Braveheart81]

To be fair, if I ever want to show my son how NOT to score tries, that 2nd try will be first on my list I think..

From watching the replays and looking at still images, Ioane was far too flat.

Even if Horne should have still attempted the pass, Ioane was much flatter than he needed to be and at 10m from Horne, makes it a pretty hard pass to make.

Often when long flat passes are made when the players are in motion, the ball travels so far forward from the point of release that they are called forward regardless of whether they left the hands backwards.

 

[Ash]

qwerty trying to justify how you mystifyingly gave points to Horne for being one of Wallabies best players? I know your manlove goes deep for him, but come on.

Horne's current penetrative ability was shown by the amount of tackles he broke in the Welsh series, not how many tries he scored by getting a free run to the line (one of which he very nearly bombed). What was lucky for Horne in the Wallabies was that it ended up being 2 tries scores 1 try bombed, instead of the other way around.

To beat the All Blacks (or anyone, really) you need to score points. That can be through pressure from your forwards, or your backs creating and finishing off tries, or a combination of both. I don't see our pack doing much of the former vs the All Blacks, so without a backline that can shift the ball we will struggle. And our midfield against Wales was pedestrian against the Welsh, at best.

 

[qwerty51]

Go watch the game again, Horne ran straight and broke several tackles, he always made metres and showed an offload ability but no one ran a good support line, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) always stayed on his wing.

 

[Schadenfreude]

The thing about defence is that it's not just about stats and how many tackles are made.

One big difference I see in the ABs compared to the Wallabies is that when the ABs make more dominant tackles and tackles where the ball-carrier goes straight to the deck. This cuts down the availability to off-load and keep the momentum going forward.

Perhaps this is actually more about attack but AB players like Kaino (in the last few years) SBW, Nonu, Read, Conrad Smith etc keep fighting in the tackle and stay on their feet. This draws at least another defender in and gives the players backing up opportunities to run off them and take the off-load in space.

The Wallabies need to do both - put opposition players to deck quickly and when attacking, stay on their feet longer and keep the legs pumping.

These are more observations from last year as I didn't get to watch the Wales Tests as closely as I wanted to. They were after AB Tests. Damn alcohol.

This is what a Fainga'a does.

 

[Schadenfreude]

He has 2 tries in his last 3 Wallabies games and 4 tries in his last 5 Super rugby games. Pretty good strike rate.

He was either gifted those tries or did his best to screw them up... well done ... clap clap clap.

If he could pass as well as he can leach tries of people who can break the defensive line he'd be a ... what do they call those? Centre?

 

[Braveheart81]

As a general rule of thumb, don't inside backs create tries for outside backs?

 

[Swat]

He was either gifted those tries or did his best to screw them up. well done . clap clap clap.

If he could pass as well as he can leach tries of people who can break the defensive line he'd be a . what do they call those? Centre?

Get your hand off it Schaden, it's called backing up. We get you're not a fan, play the ball not the man.

 

[Ash]

According two ESPN Scrum, Horne did not beat a defender in the first or third test. From memory, he also didn't in the second test, but ESPN Scrum didn't provide stats for that. A grand total of 0 offloads, too.

http://www.espnscrum.com/wales-tour-2012/rugby/match/155533.html
http://www.espnscrum.com/wales-tour-2012/rugby/match/155535.html

Look, I am trying to provide some balance on Horne here. Good physical player. Lots of potential. Development curtailed by injuries so far. Not currently test level. And very, very overrated by a select few (mostly Tahs fans) around here (the posts rating Horne better than Conrad Smith because Horne had one better game head to head were ludicrous a few years back).

The mark of a good player is how much he is feared by opposition teams and fans. Don't think you'd find any All Blacks or SA fans scared of Horne.

Are there better options than Horne? I say yes. I don't think a McCabe - Horne/Fainga'a/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) midfield will win us the TRC. Which means that we will probably have one of those 4 fighting it out for the 13 position, with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) guaranteed at least a spot on the bench due to his versatility if he doesn't make the side.

edit: Rugby Stats also said 0 overloads for all three games. Not sure how you can say (to paraphrase) "showed an offload ability, but his useless support players weren't there to profit from his greatness".

 

[Schadenfreude]

Get your hand off it Schaden, it's called backing up. We get you're not a fan, play the ball not the man.

Yeah - I learned how to back up in U8s, it's a good basic skill. You don't deserve extra credit for being able to run in a straight line as the defensive line goes past, and continue on to the try line.

Odd though - they taught me the ball is faster than the man, and how to pass in U8s too. Horne must have been sick that day.

 

[Braveheart81]

If people were meant to learn backing up in the U8s, why was Digby Ioane so flat when he was 10m away from the ball carrier?

Was he expecting a cross field kick?

 

[Ash]

Actually, Rugby Stats highlights the problem we had at 13 in attack for the first two games, third game showed an improvement.

Horne's running stats (from Rugby Stats):
Game 1: 76 minutes, 2 runs in the open for 19m, total 2 runs
Game 2: 82 minutes, 4 runs in the open for 58m, 2 runs from flyhalf for 14m, total 6 runs
Game 3: 80 minutes, 5 runs in the open for 60m, 1 kick return for 7m, 1 flyhalf run for 4m, total 7 runs

Game 3 Horne seemed to settle in and get more involved, although the stats are slightly skewed by the two runs he did for his tries. Still, 15 runs for not one tackle break and not one offload.

If Horne was really as good an attacker as qwerty implied, surely he would have a higher defender beaten or offload stat. Honestly, Horne's previous problems with the Wallabies have more been his lack of involvement and lack of penetration in attack.

I'm not trying to say he's a bad player. Not at all. I think he's a good player who has the potential to be a good test centre.

But he's not a good test centre currently, no matter how much he is talked up.