Rugby 7s general chat
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KAOPointman
Guest
Mate everything you mentioned right there is fixed with the inclusion of Quade Cooper! He had the skills, the spark and all the creativity you could ask of a 7s player! If Quade had been slipped into that squad alongside Faalavalau.....I'm almost possative we would've been contending for a medal. Because that's the No1 thing that team needs besides more pace!
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Really?
Please,explain to me how 7's has evolved, so that it requires a different skill set to that of 15's, and what are these particular skills?
Don't say fitness, cos that will just confirm that you are clueless.
you do understand that someone who excels in first grade,is better than someone else excelling in 3rd grade?
half
Dick Tooth (41)
^^^^^^^^
If you have to ask the question, then maybe you can't or won't understand the answer.
Over the last 10 years I have worked in Fiji for roughly 2 too 3 months a year and came watching first, pick up games in a park, the organised park teams and then the Fijian national team and watched for the skills involved.
For me there are three distant skill sets in the 7's game that while in the 15 game are not to anywhere the degree.
First acute awareness of where you are on the field and what is going on a certain sharpness of the mind. Not saying it does not happen in the 15 side game but nowhere near the degree, like the entire team knows.
Second is the ability to close down space when defending, just try when four players if you count the half are on one wing and its 3 on 3 in wide open spaces not the attack but the defence is amazing especially at international level.
Finally the speed of the game is such you need to be a certain type of player not all players could handle the speed of ball movement and spacial awareness needed.
You imply that it is played by 3rd grade hacks. Just simply beyond wrong and just could be the very game to engage rugby with the broader community.
If you have to ask the question, then maybe you can't or won't understand the answer.
Over the last 10 years I have worked in Fiji for roughly 2 too 3 months a year and came watching first, pick up games in a park, the organised park teams and then the Fijian national team and watched for the skills involved.
For me there are three distant skill sets in the 7's game that while in the 15 game are not to anywhere the degree.
First acute awareness of where you are on the field and what is going on a certain sharpness of the mind. Not saying it does not happen in the 15 side game but nowhere near the degree, like the entire team knows.
Second is the ability to close down space when defending, just try when four players if you count the half are on one wing and its 3 on 3 in wide open spaces not the attack but the defence is amazing especially at international level.
Finally the speed of the game is such you need to be a certain type of player not all players could handle the speed of ball movement and spacial awareness needed.
You imply that it is played by 3rd grade hacks. Just simply beyond wrong and just could be the very game to engage rugby with the broader community.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
So no different skills.
And just because 7's is awesome,that's your proof that world class test players wouldn't excel against inferior 15's players in this format.
Which was the original point that you contested.
I'm not inferring 7's is played by 3rd grade hacks. I'm stating there is a substantial gap in standard between between the Hoopers and Jenkins,and Bernard Foley's & Stannards,Giteaus & Cam Clarks, the Fardy's & the Cusacks.
and that with the same conditioning, it's undoubted that Test players would excel in the current 7's environment.
And just because 7's is awesome,that's your proof that world class test players wouldn't excel against inferior 15's players in this format.
Which was the original point that you contested.
I'm not inferring 7's is played by 3rd grade hacks. I'm stating there is a substantial gap in standard between between the Hoopers and Jenkins,and Bernard Foley's & Stannards,Giteaus & Cam Clarks, the Fardy's & the Cusacks.
and that with the same conditioning, it's undoubted that Test players would excel in the current 7's environment.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
"By the same conditioning". Errrr, yes.
SBW had to lose 7kgs apparently. That makes him a very different package when he plays Sevens than when he plays 15s.
Some Test players could make the transition if they really wanted to, and were prepared to make significant personal sacrifices.
But to call Sevens players "third graders" is, frankly, ridiculous. It is a bit like the way the leaguies talk about our best players, none of whom are good enough for state cup sides according to them.
Sevens, 15s, and loig are all different games. There are some bloody good players running around in all of fhem who would fail if thrust into either or both of the other two codes.
SBW had to lose 7kgs apparently. That makes him a very different package when he plays Sevens than when he plays 15s.
Some Test players could make the transition if they really wanted to, and were prepared to make significant personal sacrifices.
But to call Sevens players "third graders" is, frankly, ridiculous. It is a bit like the way the leaguies talk about our best players, none of whom are good enough for state cup sides according to them.
Sevens, 15s, and loig are all different games. There are some bloody good players running around in all of fhem who would fail if thrust into either or both of the other two codes.
T
TOCC
Guest
Yep, 7's is grades below test rugby.. Just ask Habana, Speight, Cummins, Cooper, Kaino, Messam and Hougaard who all carved it up in Sevens :/
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
It's not wrong to at least somewhat use the analogy of Test and T20 cricket.
I recall so vividly the tremendously patronising comments cricket Test players made about T20 when it first started; for R Ponting then - 10+ years ago - it was just a 'hit and a giggle', now he makes big money coaching an IPL team in the massive, and massively successful, IPL. Back then it was often said that T20 would be 'a perfect place for failed Test and ODI players and generally much lower grade players'.
A decade or so later, it's all turned out very differently.
Importantly now, there are cricket Test players that play T20 well, some Test players who've tried it and failed miserably, and there are gun T20 players who will never make it in Test cricket and nor do they aspire to.
This is all good for cricket as a sport and globally as a thriving professional business with massive sponsorship and TV $s flowing in.
And moreover it's now calmly recognised in cricket circles that T20 and Test cricket can live together perfectly well, they are very different formats requiring some overlapping but also some very different skills, and they are not in a zero-sum game situation. (The patronising and looking-down-nose factors have totally disappeared, for obvious reasons.)
Overall, I think this is how we must cast rugby 15s and 7s - drawing up the same roots and many skills, but equally different in terms of the types of players that will most enjoy and excel in either. To cast 7s as 'inferior grade' in Australia would prove a vast mistake - building outstanding 7s teams and successful local 7s comps could be one of the very best ways to regenerate the obviously diminishing interest in rugby in Australia.
(And please - the usual guys that love the diverting strawman set-up to then argue against it/me - I am NOT saying the above is a perfect analogy for rugby 7s and 15s, I am solely saying there are some comparable parameters worth recalling.)
I recall so vividly the tremendously patronising comments cricket Test players made about T20 when it first started; for R Ponting then - 10+ years ago - it was just a 'hit and a giggle', now he makes big money coaching an IPL team in the massive, and massively successful, IPL. Back then it was often said that T20 would be 'a perfect place for failed Test and ODI players and generally much lower grade players'.
A decade or so later, it's all turned out very differently.
Importantly now, there are cricket Test players that play T20 well, some Test players who've tried it and failed miserably, and there are gun T20 players who will never make it in Test cricket and nor do they aspire to.
This is all good for cricket as a sport and globally as a thriving professional business with massive sponsorship and TV $s flowing in.
And moreover it's now calmly recognised in cricket circles that T20 and Test cricket can live together perfectly well, they are very different formats requiring some overlapping but also some very different skills, and they are not in a zero-sum game situation. (The patronising and looking-down-nose factors have totally disappeared, for obvious reasons.)
Overall, I think this is how we must cast rugby 15s and 7s - drawing up the same roots and many skills, but equally different in terms of the types of players that will most enjoy and excel in either. To cast 7s as 'inferior grade' in Australia would prove a vast mistake - building outstanding 7s teams and successful local 7s comps could be one of the very best ways to regenerate the obviously diminishing interest in rugby in Australia.
(And please - the usual guys that love the diverting strawman set-up to then argue against it/me - I am NOT saying the above is a perfect analogy for rugby 7s and 15s, I am solely saying there are some comparable parameters worth recalling.)
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Sens and 15's are clearly different sports with shill sets similar sometimes and vastly different in others.
Some players (very few) have the ability and skill set to play both sports at the highest level. Out of the 15's I would think Foley and Hooper are the standouts who could do both, and very well at that.
Some players (very few) have the ability and skill set to play both sports at the highest level. Out of the 15's I would think Foley and Hooper are the standouts who could do both, and very well at that.
One of the big issues for ARU and the men's game is economics.
The example of the Force is interesting. While the ARU has indeed sunk a lot of money into it, at least there is the prospect of a return on that investment. Gate takings, TV rights, etc.
There is a clear return on investment for the women's game. It's the pinnacle of the sport and there are a tonne of opportunities to leverage the game and our athletes locally.
I'm not sure that's the case in the Men's game.
For the next few years at least, the ARU just won't get anything out of Men's 7s. It has no visibility locally, other than the die-hards who watch the World Series. 15s is the main game.
There are no ticket sales to be had - the success of the Sydney Sevens has nothing to do with the fortunes of our Men's team. No TV rights, no exposure.
I think they have to up their investment, for sure. But I can't see them reaking the bank to do it- for the blokes, anyway. Not until we get a lot closer to Tokyo.
.
The example of the Force is interesting. While the ARU has indeed sunk a lot of money into it, at least there is the prospect of a return on that investment. Gate takings, TV rights, etc.
There is a clear return on investment for the women's game. It's the pinnacle of the sport and there are a tonne of opportunities to leverage the game and our athletes locally.
I'm not sure that's the case in the Men's game.
For the next few years at least, the ARU just won't get anything out of Men's 7s. It has no visibility locally, other than the die-hards who watch the World Series. 15s is the main game.
There are no ticket sales to be had - the success of the Sydney Sevens has nothing to do with the fortunes of our Men's team. No TV rights, no exposure.
I think they have to up their investment, for sure. But I can't see them reaking the bank to do it- for the blokes, anyway. Not until we get a lot closer to Tokyo.
.
Good to see rugby get more exposure even if it is sevens.
Canadian women getting the bronze and Fiji winning the country's first ever gold medal is fantastic plus pissing off a few bitter mungoball fans at the inclusion of rugby in the olympics
Though I do wish the All blacks would have a few off days like the NZ 7s team did
Canadian women getting the bronze and Fiji winning the country's first ever gold medal is fantastic plus pissing off a few bitter mungoball fans at the inclusion of rugby in the olympics
Though I do wish the All blacks would have a few off days like the NZ 7s team did
waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
Following on from @RugbyReg's excellent piece* on the future of Australia's women's 7's program, @Barbarian does the same for the men's:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/australian-mens-7s-what-next/#disqus_thread
*If you haven't already clicked on Reg's piece, first give yourself an uppercut, then:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/australian-womens-7s-what-next/#disqus_thread
If I has Steve Tew's email address I'd sure as shit be sharing both articles with him!
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/australian-mens-7s-what-next/#disqus_thread
*If you haven't already clicked on Reg's piece, first give yourself an uppercut, then:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/australian-womens-7s-what-next/#disqus_thread
If I has Steve Tew's email address I'd sure as shit be sharing both articles with him!
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Barb - firstly re the Force. The ARU have become lender of last resort there precisely as there has been zero ROI in Perth after 7 years; rather, it's totally broke and bleeding cash big time. A number of us predicted this outcome and there is no credible evidence that the Force will ever be a profitable or a return-yielding investment. But that is another story perhaps for another place.
Of course you're right - the men's 7s game here is of marginal economic benefit to the ARU. Today.
That is in part the case because....it's a failed team in a failed (mens) program. The team never achieves much, it's typically a lack lustre also-ran, and in the last week it's failed dismally on the world's biggest sports stage. Accordingly the ratio of FTA coverage our men's team gained from Rio vs our women's was around 1:500, if not more.
Like it or not, nothing that's national succeeds in any form in elite, professional Australian sport unless it's winning a lot more than its losing.
The ROI - in gate, TV or sponsorship - in men's 7s will only come when (a) we have a far more dynamic, consistently winning men's 7s team (which I am wholly convinced we can create btw) and (b) we build towards a BBL-like national (or east coast) sevens competition of the type the ARU is now actively considering.
The conventionalists, preservationists, status quo addicts, and 'young old fogeys' here will be truly horrified and vastly sceptical re my suggestion in (b) above. I will pre-emptively now predict multiple posts telling me how it will never happen, the clear problems, barriers and impossibilities, the non-viable costs, who will ever watch it, and so on.
But they'll miss the mark entirely. 7s is a massively entertaining version of rugby, just like T20 is of cricket. It's hugely TV and social media friendly. No need to list why. Just this: 7s, post-Olympic inclusion, will become a massive new format in global rugby and global sport more generally and, just like T20 in cricket, it will be immeasurably beneficial for the code as a whole on the global stage. It will aid 15s, not hurt it.
What needs to be created - and will in at least some countries be created over the next 3-5 years - is as mentioned a BBL-like competition of say 8-12 Australian men's and women's 7s teams competing in some kind of round-robin competition and FTA televised and running in c. 2-3 hour blocks on say Wednesday and Friday nights. This will become a superb showcase for rugby and can ultimately become far more popular and profitable and code-enhancing (at least for Australia) than S18 is today (and that is of course in slow decline here as is Wallaby mode here).
I'm convinced this competition model can and be made a reality in Australia. It will take some investment but will attract very good and increasing sponsorship and could provide precisely the productive re-birthing that aspects of Australian rugby very badly needs.
If the ARU don't or can't build such a 7s national competition as cursorily outlined above, I'm sure the smarter, better run rugby nations like England will (they started T20 off let's recall) and we will be left ruing the day we did not do the same thing (possibly the ruing may come just when the really big crisis hits the whole of the code here, given the way things are today, in, I'm calling it now, approx. the 2019-20 period).
K
KAOPointman
Guest
What's one thing these new cricket comps(t20)(IPL) and or other sports, not unlike 7s do to make the next step up in the publics eye? They offer big money to stars like Ponting, Clarke, Warner and so on. Possibly these stars are past their prime sometimes, but are still good and add value in other ways too their new teams!
This was a huge opportunity the ARU missed in letting the olympics run as if it was just another competition. We were never going to win gold.....
The Quade Cooper thing could have become the very 7s ARU media stunt needed to boost the profile of the sport. Obviously luring other big names across to play aswell. It's not like the Aussie sevens team as it was were a medal chance anyway......so it would have been a great chance to boost interest by having Cooper, Gill, Phipps, Folou, Giteau or whoever they could get across for awhile!
I mean look at the NZ 7s, I'm totally convinced SBW was one of those players. While still a good player......he was still slower, less skillfull and less fit then the whole squad. And players like the ioani brothers, straight in despite even being near rookies in their super rugby teams! Then the British squad.....a collection of players from teams only ranked 4th through to 10th still made it to the gold medal game! And the women's 7s are mostly all only 3 year "veterans" in the sport lol! The list goes on!
This to me shows you do NOT need the "best 7s players your country can scrounge up"......too "spread and grow the sport".
Perhaps this is what needs to be done NOW. Spend big bucks luring some STARS into 7s so they can be the face of the sport as it then grows and pays itself back in internal structural growth and polarity amount Aussie households!
Hell even league stars could work with so much time till the next olympics!
(I'll add a disclaimer on the ^^^^^quade cooper topic, as there are 3 or 400 000 kiwis in Aus who will no doubt blindly boo him, so maybe he'd be a tricky draw card unless accompanied by a strong contingent of other very strong Wallaby personalities like Folou or Hooper for eg) IMHO!
This was a huge opportunity the ARU missed in letting the olympics run as if it was just another competition. We were never going to win gold.....
The Quade Cooper thing could have become the very 7s ARU media stunt needed to boost the profile of the sport. Obviously luring other big names across to play aswell. It's not like the Aussie sevens team as it was were a medal chance anyway......so it would have been a great chance to boost interest by having Cooper, Gill, Phipps, Folou, Giteau or whoever they could get across for awhile!
I mean look at the NZ 7s, I'm totally convinced SBW was one of those players. While still a good player......he was still slower, less skillfull and less fit then the whole squad. And players like the ioani brothers, straight in despite even being near rookies in their super rugby teams! Then the British squad.....a collection of players from teams only ranked 4th through to 10th still made it to the gold medal game! And the women's 7s are mostly all only 3 year "veterans" in the sport lol! The list goes on!
This to me shows you do NOT need the "best 7s players your country can scrounge up"......too "spread and grow the sport".
Perhaps this is what needs to be done NOW. Spend big bucks luring some STARS into 7s so they can be the face of the sport as it then grows and pays itself back in internal structural growth and polarity amount Aussie households!
Hell even league stars could work with so much time till the next olympics!
(I'll add a disclaimer on the ^^^^^quade cooper topic, as there are 3 or 400 000 kiwis in Aus who will no doubt blindly boo him, so maybe he'd be a tricky draw card unless accompanied by a strong contingent of other very strong Wallaby personalities like Folou or Hooper for eg) IMHO!
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
I largely agree with everything above. I'd actually like to see a more localised regional circuit based in and around the Asia-Pacific. Essentially a franchise league. Something similar to what they've recently done in Sri Lanka but on a larger scale.
I'd go for an 8 franchise league with 8 stops. For the sake of it lets go with teams in Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong and perhaps Shanghai. For the 'Asia' contingent alongside teams in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and NZ (I think either Christchurch or Dunedin personally) or a similar split. Run over 8 consecutive weeks in the middle of the year. Set a quota of local talent but open up the market to players from any nation to fill in the remaining roster spots. If you go with squads of 15 then say 8 of them have to be locals with the other 7 being imported. I think that would be a good balance.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
I am glad to see aru getting behind developing new rugby products and reinvigorating traditional products. Developing short form games like 7's and 10's positive as not only provides other pathways for people to get involved in the game but also fits with trends for people seeking shorter form products geared around entertainment value adds.
To make mass appeal we need to get into schools and in particular public schools which 7's may be easier entree, particularly as traditional private school base participation been eroded as those same private schools offer wider sporting choices such as soccer, afl etc. Ok so aru working on that.
But the big gap is getting rugby product on free to air as that alone stops wider expansion and take-up of rugby as a product by fans. I hope this is a key element of aru's broader strategy to grow (and protect - as about stopping losing people to other codes as well) rugby's broader appeal amongst the Australian public. As rugby just available beyond tests etc on fox sports alone will continue to constrain the ability to grow and market the game in oz.
To make mass appeal we need to get into schools and in particular public schools which 7's may be easier entree, particularly as traditional private school base participation been eroded as those same private schools offer wider sporting choices such as soccer, afl etc. Ok so aru working on that.
But the big gap is getting rugby product on free to air as that alone stops wider expansion and take-up of rugby as a product by fans. I hope this is a key element of aru's broader strategy to grow (and protect - as about stopping losing people to other codes as well) rugby's broader appeal amongst the Australian public. As rugby just available beyond tests etc on fox sports alone will continue to constrain the ability to grow and market the game in oz.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
That's the potential opportunity in developing these new competitions would present. The opportunity to break out of the Pay platform and approach the wider market. Being outside of the current media rights and everything. Could even do something similar to what the Shute Shield has done in producing it internally and provide the feed to a FTA station and target sponsorship etc. to cover expenses. At least to begin with.
As for schools. Reg points out an interesting structure that could be emulated at that level. Could set it up to run in the third term of the school year. So a 10 week timeframe.
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
If we do have a men's 7s comp we need to leverage the current brands we already have. Either Premier rugby, NRC or Super rugby names. We don't need yet more rugby team names in Australia.
Really excited about the Women's 7s University tournament, but I hope they align those university teams with the NRC brands to bring in some continuity.
Really excited about the Women's 7s University tournament, but I hope they align those university teams with the NRC brands to bring in some continuity.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
I agree. That's why I favour the 6 team format more so than anything else. Use the current Super Rugby franchises and add one for balance. Professional structures to build off. Though, I wouldn't just stop at men's. If we do it. We have to include the women's side of the game. They deserve it.