Rocky road ahead for Rocky...........

[Reddy!]

I'll tell you what...I'm in England at the moment, and the confidence is pretty good here coming into the World Cup, especially after the Wallabies loss to the All Blacks and their hard fought win over Wales (plus 6 Nations victory and previous victories over Australia). England are supremely confident playing us in a semi final and have great leadership across the park.

So the point I'm trying to make, is that this captaincy problem is another compounding problem within the Wallabies - along with poor performances and team selections and injuries - and will be a burden going into the World Cup where they are expected to meet NZ in the final...ha, good luck...while other teams are looking strong, settled and competitive.

 

[Ruggo]

I'd be interested to know who the other captaincy candidates were at the time of Rocky's appointment? That is, who did G&GR folks think was worthy of the job at the time. I recall thinking it was a decent choice, as there weren't a lot of other guys who stood out, either through form or injury. With the benefit of that always clear hindsight, it wasn't a great choice. If you were picking a captain today, I think you'd go with Horwill, regardless of his success with the Reds.

I wouldn't actually be that disappointed if Rocky lost the captaincy from this weekend onwards. I don't think it's done a lot for his game and he's not a natural leader, especially in comparison with some of the other captains we've had over the last couple of decades.

Horwill and George Smith as interum captains on the EOYT with a more perminant decision to be made at the begining of the 2010 Wallaby season. What damage to the Wallaby culture was done when Elsom was appointed? It is not a dig at Rocky himself but the suits that put him there. By having a player return from Europe, waltz straight into the Tri nations squad and starting 15 after not contributing anything that season for Australian rugby, only to be named the Wallaby Captain two months later cheapened the Wallaby Jersey. So much for it being a symbol of national pride that must be earnt. The captaincy is now being used to shield player who has proven very little at the detriment of the team which is just cheapening the jersey further.



EDIT - THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ROCKY, MORESO THE PROCESS IN WHICH HE RETURNED.

 

[RedsHappy]

I'll tell you what...I'm in England at the moment, and the confidence is pretty good here coming into the World Cup, especially after the Wallabies loss to the All Blacks and their hard fought win over Wales (plus 6 Nations victory and previous victories over Australia). England are supremely confident playing us in a semi final and have great leadership across the park. ...So the point I'm trying to make, is that this captaincy problem is another compounding problem within the Wallabies - along with poor performances and team selections and injuries - and will be a burden going into the World Cup where they are expected to meet NZ in the final...ha, good luck...while other teams are looking strong, settled and competitive.

Reddy!, it's worth recalling that Johnson had the good judgement and fortitude to change his captain mid last year from Borthwick to Moody. Yes, Borthwick had injury issues at the time, but it was recognised that his captaincy wasn't working optimally and that Moody was the better choice. Credit to Johnson for admitting the need for change and making it, at the highest level, and it seems to have very worked well for England.

Contrast that with our 'rugby establishment' that never, ever admits any form of error or reflection on how things might be better done some 4 years after the 'great rebuilding' commenced. After Auckland, Deans basically criticised the players to Growden (who else?) as having 'mental frailties' and 'adopting the wrong tactics and not implementing correctly'. Not a sliver of 'as coach, I take responsibility and we all made mistakes for this match'. Then came: 'the next match, players will be culled and are now playing for their WC spots', like, they - or some of them - are the ones not quite up to scratch.

 

[Richo]

If Elsom is at his best we have a better chance of winning than Cup than any other blindside at their best. It feels like Deans and co are justt hoping and hoping and hoping... And if Rocky finds form, they are geniuses and we'll all have to eat crow.

My feeling is, though, that regardless of form he simply shouldn't be captain.

 

[emuarse]

The first and most important consideration of the selected captain is to have the respect from his team, as individuals, who see the captain as the man they aspire to, to lead them into conflict with the enemy.
In itself it might not win a game but it certainly helps minimize a loss.
I suspect the Wallabies as individuals, if you could get each players candid opinion, would prefer another player to lead them, ergo Rocky Elsom should not be captain.
Those of you who have played rugby or any team sport for a number of years would know what I mean.
And for the dull witted, I think this was Martin's main point... that the players no longer respect him as captain and that he needs to concentrate on & improve his game.

 

[Ruggo]

I agree Richo. He doesn't seem to cope well with the extra load.

 

[fatprop]

Rocky is on the wing for half the game because he can't keep up with the action anymore

he's crocked

He isn't fit enough

he doesn't deserve his place.

pretty simple stuff

cull hard. It's nearly time for spring cleaning.........just in time for RWC

I would suggest that the "plan" was to have Elsom stay wide after the ball tracked across because the intention was to play with width with the ball swinging back that way.

The Kiwis & Crusaders often work the way with Read and/or McCaw staying with a pod near the tram tracks.

It didn't work because the ABs cut that attack width using an umbrella defense so Cooper had his options cut

 

[allitsab]

I keep thinking about articles I've seen talking about Rocky and his captiaincy.

A theme seems to be something along the lines of "Rocky is an ideal choice for captain, because, as with most successful leaders he understands how to keep some distance between himself and those he leads" other articles sum it up simply - "Rocky is abit of a loner".

While being able to maintain a certain distance from those you're leading might be a good thing in some instances (like, for instance, if he were a CEO of a major corporation who needed to make "tough decision" like laying people off, reassigning people or changing the organisation's strategic diretion), I simply cannot see how it is a good thing on a rugby field. Surely in this circumstance you want a guy who is personable, understands the game plan and is able to both inspire and maintain discipline in those around him.

Since the captain will not be making any decision where you'd want him somewhat distant from the rest of the group (ie the captain doesn't call for replacements, set the test squad or decide players remuneration), I can't understand the logic in having this sort of personality in the job.

What we really want is somebody capable of managing a referee (something Rocky doesn't do particularly well), and who can inspire those around them, through both their actions and words.

 

[barbarian]

I am going to stick up for Rocky a bit. Not as captain but I do think he still deserves his spot in the side. Yes he had a bad game on Saturday but unlike McCalman I think he isn't far from getting back into form. He was putting himself in the right places, getting the ball going forward but just lacked the physical technique and confidence to break tackles like he used to. In only his 3rd game back from injury that is understandable. Hopefully he can turn it around fast, because once he gets his confidence back he will be very dangerous.

And those people who say he just hangs on the wing clearly haven't seen the stats. His workrate was very good, only second to Pocock's according to Austin's stats.

 

[fatprop]

Elsom is a taciturn private guy, some will see that as a a grump.

The interviews with him to me, have always shown to me he is a thoughtful guy who knows his shit.

He is still the best test 6 we have by quite a way as far as I care

He made errors on Saturday, but they were made trying to do stuff, like Cooper and a number of others. He also did a number of good things in that game as well

 

[antipodean]

I'm guessing most people who are calling for Elsom to be sacked because he was "on the wing" haven't played in the backrow. As fatprop said, he's still the best blindside flanker Australia has.

 

[RedsHappy]

I am going to stick up for Rocky a bit. Not as captain but I do think he still deserves his spot in the side. Yes he had a bad game on Saturday but unlike McCalman I think he isn't far from getting back into form. He was putting himself in the right places, getting the ball going forward but just lacked the physical technique and confidence to break tackles like he used to. In only his 3rd game back from injury that is understandable. Hopefully he can turn it around fast, because once he gets his confidence back he will be very dangerous. And those people who say he just hangs on the wing clearly haven't seen the stats. His workrate was very good, only second to Pocock's according to Austin's stats.

Barb, whilst understanding your logic ('gradually getting to hopefully being a great Test player once more'), it must be asked where this sort of very uncertain and unpredictable mode of selection (in terms of 'when does the improvement curve start to fire, if it ever really does?') sits in terms of risk-reward calculus in what was (is still?) meant to be a crucial, breaking-through year for the Wallabies via both 3N and BC trophies and the RWC.

Surely waiting for players to come into 'previous best' form carries considerable risks, especially if that person is also captain. What if the arrival of that prior form takes say 4-5 (or more) crucial sequential Tests, and thus where team performance might have been better had clearly 'in form' player been picked in an important position? How long can waiting be afforded? We have now lost 2 from 3 2011 Tests.

My point being: is the risk and intrinsic uncertainty profile of these 'wait for form' approaches consistent with the ARU's stated goals for this year's team?

 

[barbarian]

It's a tough one RH. Elsom is a proven class player at the top level, and that is something he has over all of his rivals. He was OK against Samoa and OK against South Africa so there weren't exactly any alarm bells ringing. He had an off game against the Blacks, but as I said before it was not as bad as people are making out.

So the question is do you pick a proven international player who may be a bit below his best, or an untested rookie who has been playing well at a lower level? The All Blacks certainly take the former approach and it has worked wonders. On Super Form the NZ backrow would be Messam, Todd and Thomson. But I would suggest Kaino, McCaw and Read did OK on Saturday.

I also want to call for calm on Higgers until we see him start a test match. Yes he has looked good in the closing minutes of test matches after the game has opened up. But I will reserve judgement until I see how he performs in the tighter, harder first 40. I am hoping he goes great but his quiet performances in the Reds big games this year gives me cause for concern.

 

[Ruggo]

If we want to persist with Rocky, we need to lighten the load. His form should be the first consideration and the captaincy is interfering with this. The whole saga could be fixed with integrity quite easy. A quite tap on the shoulder to say the captaincy is to much and we want you to step down. The whole thing gets announced with Rocky saying he is resigning from the role as captain, sighting the need to work on from his priority. As a senior player he remains in the leadership group and the new captain is appointed. Everybodies dignity remains intact and the squad can move on in the best interest of the team. That interest includes getting Rocky back to full flight.

 

[Richo]

One solution to Elsom's form problem (quite apart from his captaincy) would be to see him play fewer minutes. I'd rather see Rocky going hard as hell for 50 or 60 than trying to last the full 80. Having Samo, say, come on would be great to see. This would, however, require Deans to use his bench in a way that would be utterly out of keeping with his track record as Wallabies coach.

 

[antipodean]

His workrate on the weekend was pretty good. Miles above two props and a lock on the same team.

 

[Richo]

His workrate on the weekend was pretty good. Miles above two props and a lock on the same team.

His workrate is a lot less concerning than his impact in contact, skills execution and accuracy in tackling -- all of which were not what we need from Rocky.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The Rocky as a "selection at blindside" issue is a difficult one. Fit and in form, he's our best 6 by a pretty large margin IMHO. Gagger's analysis a few weeks lends credence to that. He's starting to return to full fitness and I don't see a lot of other candidates in that position if we were to put Higgers in the run on side. Part of the problem we've got too is that McCalman isn't giving us enough at eight, so really we have two selection problems:

Blindside: Elsom is a proven class player who has been below his best. OK, put Higginbotham there.
Eight: McCalman isn't the best option right now and Higginbotham or Samo are the probable options.

The problem we now have is that you can't play one bloke in two positions at once and I'm not convinced that Samo is an 80 minute player at test level any more. In my view, we are best served by starting with the back row of Elsom, Pocock and Higginbotham and have Samo on the bench. Later in the game, Samo comes on and plays eight, and Higgers switches to 6. I think that's about the best we can do right now.

 

[antipodean]

His workrate is a lot less concerning than his impact in contact, skills execution and accuracy in tackling -- all of which were not what we need from Rocky.

I'd suggest a lot of people may be swayed by footage of him smashing into Franks, who is a difficult person to dominate in contact. I can't recall any glaring skills issues, but with his missed tackles; how many of them would have been made by anyone else? Sure Nonu got through him to score a try, but that's not unusual for Ma'a - at least Elsom got there to attempt the tackle.

In all seriousness I doubt Elsom would have to spread himself so thin if other people around him did some work or were effective in the work they did.

I'm not a big fan of Rocky's, but some of the criticism is unjustified.

 

[jay-c]

I'll tell you what...I'm in England at the moment, and the confidence is pretty good here coming into the World Cup, especially after the Wallabies loss to the All Blacks and their hard fought win over Wales (plus 6 Nations victory and previous victories over Australia). England are supremely confident playing us in a semi final and have great leadership across the park.

So the point I'm trying to make, is that this captaincy problem is another compounding problem within the Wallabies - along with poor performances and team selections and injuries - and will be a burden going into the World Cup where they are expected to meet NZ in the final...ha, good luck...while other teams are looking strong, settled and competitive.

reddy have a think about the englands history going into world cups or any sporting event for that matter
its porbably where we get our confdence from... but england go into every tournament cocky and crash and burn every time then look to sack coach and captain